Political Crossfire Forums

[eynon]

more-over consider that the only execution mentioned in Exodus takes place when a man places a curse on another man due to dispute between the 2. Seems harsh to stone a person for cursing some-one else, but actions such as those can easily lead to bloody interclan fighting in a tribal society.

[Gitana]

Quote: as Cap'n pointed out the root of our word for witch stems from a term for poison.

That's not true; many people confuse this because King James replaced the word 'poisoner' in the bible with the word 'witch' when he edited it.

The etymology for the modern word 'witch' is generally accepted to be the Old English root word & it's forms- ie, wicce; wicca, wicchis.

An association with poison was the Anglo-Saxon term lyblæca (sorcerer) - the root of the word lybb meant a drug, poison, or charm.

Topic: Christianity would naturally be against witchcraft, divination, etc. It is a religion that teaches adherents to surrender one's will to the will of one's god. Any attempts at self-empowerment/autonomy are strongly discouraged or banned.

[cap'n queasy]

Gitana wrote: Quote: as Cap'n pointed out the root of our word for witch stems from a term for poison.

That's not true; many people confuse this because King James replaced the word 'poisoner' in the bible with the word 'witch' when he edited it.

The etymology for the modern word 'witch' is generally accepted to be the Old English root word & it's forms- ie, wicce; wicca, wicchis.

An association with poison was the Anglo-Saxon term lyblæca (sorcerer) - the root of the word lybb meant a drug, poison, or charm.

Your exegesis of the entry in the Online Etymology Dictionary leaves quite a bit to be desired. It simply states that the word was used to describe a user of sorcery, which happens to be a term found in the Greek texts of the Tanahk termed as "pharmakopios" (the root where we get our term pharmacology). This word was translated as sorcerer or sorcery in many medieval translations of the scripture.

The meaning was someone who utilizes drugs or poisons to manipulate others.

Quote: That wicce once had a more specific sense than the later general one of "female magician, sorceress" perhaps is suggested by the presence of other words in O.E. describing more specific kinds of magical craft.

The earlier specific meaning that became synonymous with the practice of the dark arts is that of a twisted cord or branch (ie twisted) derived from the Old English term "widde", this words survives in modern usage (barely, hardly anyone uses it anymore) as the word "widdershins" which describes a reverse rotation ie backwards movement. So the original root meaning is more along the lines of "twisted" or "backwards" in modern terminology.

The usage of the term Wicca and it's definition by modern practitioners of the occult in a system developed by Gerald Gardner in the 1930's is specious and revisionist.

What we know as "wicca" today has absolutely no connection to any known ancient religious practice. It's pure make believe, used to draw the weak minded in the web of deceit woven by the master practitioner of psychological manipulation. In other words it draws rubes into a scam devised by someone who makes their living by creating cult or cult-like groups and using them for various ends. It manipulates weak willed followers into doing the bidding of a stronger will by use of ritual and other more devious techniques of intrigue. There is no real difference between some two bit cult leader and someone who has used such techniques to parlay actual power on a national level. Just a matter of differing skill level in causing an individual leaders will to be done.

Poisoning minds is far more effective than poisoning bodies, although poisons and drugs have their uses in effecting this type of manipulation and intrigue.

These methods were developed in the earliest era of human history to lead groups. Primitive and cruel, but supremely effective.

[Gitana]

Widde - yes, I agree with your inclusion, but the root of today's word 'witch' is derived from the OE wicce; and my basis for that belief far predates any online dictionary, as historical documentation has led most scholars to the same conclusion. :)

You do not comment on King James editing, nor the reasons for it.

Wicca is certainly a newly created religion, and is invaluable for the purposes of studying the human psyche and religious belief. It's origins are irrelevant (as are the origins of any religion) as the only important element for our purposes is how it motivates people's behavior. I don't think the age of a religion lends it any particular credence over another; they all function in basically the same way, and provide people who need a religion with the same feeling of fulfillment/answers/whatever. Where I find Wiccan (and similar) philosophies superior to the older Christian/Muslim based religions is that Wicca empowers an individual; self-knowledge, self-control and ultimately, responsibility for self and one's place in the world - and to others. This is a far more socially responsible & productive attitude than the Judaic-based parent/child role religious teachings.

I have read that Wicca and Muslim are the two fastest-growing religions in the US. This will be fascinating, should the trend continue, to see how/if this change affects our societal consciousness and behavior.

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: You do not comment on King James editing, nor the reasons for it.

Yes, I did.

Quote: It simply states that the word was used to describe a user of sorcery, which happens to be a term found in the Greek texts of the Tanahk termed as "pharmakopios" (the root where we get our term pharmacology). This word was translated as sorcerer or sorcery in many medieval translations of the scripture.

The meaning was someone who utilizes drugs or poisons to manipulate others.


What you call understanding the human psyche, I call understanding it in order to manipulate it.

Whether it is a primitive shaman, a prison gang leader, or the innovator and popularizer of National Socialism who does this is irrelevant, the difference is in the degree of success rather than in the methods used.

Wicca (and occultism in general) is simply another method of doing this.

[Gitana]

Yes and no. Wicca doesn't necessarily have a 'leader' or heirarchy, as organized/traditional religions do; while there are groups within Wicca that function this way (Alexandrians, for example), I think the majority of Wiccans are self-realizing. This changes the complexion of it's behavioral influence considerably if you are looking at it as a method of control. Who is manipulating the solitary witch, and for what purpose? No one, whereas conventional religion has definite behavioral goals. Unless you want to propose that Gardner implemented a plot to pull people away from conventional Bible-based religions. :)

I think religion of any kind fulfills a need in certain people who apparently come hardwired with that predisposition. An awful lot of people seem to find this world a frightening place to be without some supernatural guidance or rules. The old adage "If God didn't exist, it would be necessary to invent him."

I heartily agree that most conventional religion is a method of control. It's too bad so many want/need to be controlled by someone or something other than themselves.

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: I think the majority of Wiccans are self-realizing.
Imposing your will on yourself is kind of useless don't you think?

I personally think the majority of them are naive dilletantes searching for meaning in their lives, or misfits who join or form loosely arranged ad hoc groups mainly for the purposes of illicit sex. These types of personalities are easily manipulated by stronger personalities. Maybe you find some type of fulfillment in this type of activity and that is fine with me, but I don't want anything to do with it, myself.

There is something real out there, for those who seek earnestly. But I'm sure you don't want to hear about it so I won't bother you with it.

[Gitana]

Imposing one's will on oneself is the only way to self-discipline and self-knowledge; a goal of spiritual and intellectual growth/maturity. A set of 'rules' and a punishment/reward system (as in conventional religion) are simply training tools for controlling behavior. You can train a dog with those same methods. :)

Btw - I'm not Wiccan, but the Wiccans I have known have been very sincere, good people, generally with a very high standard of personal ethics. Unfortunately, Wicca, because of it's use of energy manipulation (magick) also will always attract the dilettantes who watch The Craft and think they can make their high school life better by twitching their nose. Those types drop off quickly. :)

I am sure there are some among all religous seekers of any group that would fit your dilittante/sexual seeker definition.....lol; we see news items about that kind of behavior everyday; but that simply reinforces my statement about those who need/want to be controlled. I also think you may be suffering from the '70's imagery of "Wiccan" group antics.

You seem clearly against established religion, yet you state there is 'something real out there.' I can assume you have found something that fulfills your needs?

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: I also think you may be suffering from the '70's imagery of "Wiccan" group antics.
More like personal experience.

Quote: You seem clearly against established religion, yet you state there is 'something real out there.' I can assume you have found something that fulfills your needs?

It's a personal relationship with Y'shua HaMashiach.

You don't need to train yourself like a dog for that.

[Gitana]

Sorry you experienced a fringe element. :(


So your belief is based on the original God of the Jewish people, and in a Messiah. Do you not have rules and codes of behavior - with the stipulation of potential reward and punishment in this life or the next?

[cap'n queasy]

Gitana wrote: Sorry you experienced a fringe element. :(


So your belief is based on the original God of the Jewish people, and in a Messiah. Do you not have rules and codes of behavior - with the stipulation of potential reward and punishment in this life or the next?

There is no reward for "good" behavior.

Redemption and Salvation are a free gift to those who cannot possibly merit any such gift. No action on your part can possibly make it so you deserve any such credit. Humans simply do not possess any tender that would tempt YHWH to trade. Yet anyone can receive the multitudinous riches of Y'shua's kindness and tolerance and patience.

You don't need religious paraphernalia. You don't need to join a group. You don't need ritual. You don't need codes of behavior. You don't need to be "better" than other people. You don't need to buy anything. You don't need any of things people who dwell on this earth say you need. Small children can find what eludes the most learned and competent of generals, kings, scholars and priests.

The only thing you need to do is to seek the face of YHWH.

Seek and you shall find. It's all right under our noses, but many of us don't recognize it for what it is because of the state of our minds.

[Gitana]

I'm glad you have found what you need. :)

[Angelicus]

[quote="Gitana"] Quote:
Topic: Christianity would naturally be against witchcraft, divination, etc. It is a religion that teaches adherents to surrender one's will to the will of one's god. Any attempts at self-empowerment/autonomy are strongly discouraged or banned.

And your qualifications too teach about what the Christian faith says, would be?

[Angelicus]

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: I think the majority of Wiccans are self-realizing.
Imposing your will on yourself is kind of useless don't you think?

I personally think the majority of them are naive dilletantes searching for meaning in their lives, or misfits who join or form loosely arranged ad hoc groups mainly for the purposes of illicit sex. These types of personalities are easily manipulated by stronger personalities. Maybe you find some type of fulfillment in this type of activity and that is fine with me, but I don't want anything to do with it, myself.

There is something real out there, for those who seek earnestly. But I'm sure you don't want to hear about it so I won't bother you with it.

capn by all means tell us alllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll about it please.

Seriously, please do.

I would much rather read what you have to say about that, than yet another thread started with the sole intention of attacking Christ and his Church like this one.

Besides I'd like to talk too you about your views and insights on the "name" issue.

I have some questions regarding that issue.

[cap'n queasy]

Gitana wrote: I'm glad you have found what you need. :)

Thanks. :-D

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: Besides I'd like to talk too you about your views and insights on the "name" issue.

I have some questions regarding that issue.

Let'em rip.

I'd be more than happy to try to answer any questions you may have.

[Gitana]

You're welcome, cap'n. :-D Always a good thing.


Quote: It is a religion that teaches adherents to surrender one's will to the will of one's god. Any attempts at self-empowerment/autonomy are strongly discouraged or banned.

And your qualifications too teach about what the Christian faith says, would be?


A basic tenet of Christian-based religions is that an adherent is to surrender his will to his god's. Self-empowerment (such as following your will over your god's law/will) are considered wrong, selfish, vain, sinful or mistakes. If you find my statements in error, please point out where and why if you would.

[John]

Quote: A basic tenet of Christian-based religions is that an adherent is to surrender his will to his god's. Self-empowerment (such as following your will over your god's law/will) are considered wrong, selfish, vain, sinful or mistakes. If you find my statements in error, please point out where and why if you would.

Well, I think that's kinda right...but what I've found to be true...is that it isn't so much about it being about not being selfish, vain, or sinful...but that God's will is just plainly the best choice. It isn't that it's a contest of wills and God just wants us to listen to Him because He is God. It's that He loves us and since He is God knows the best for us. It's more about just realizing that God wants the best for us...

You see.."Self-empowerment" isn't evil in and of itself...it just that the whole concept is a lie. There is no power without God...it just doesn't exist, He is the source of all power. So if you fool yourself into believing a lie..and reject the real truth of the matter...of course when the reality of the lie takes its toll...it will be a regretful thing.

[Gitana]

Quote: of course when the reality of the lie takes its toll...it will be a regretful thing.

For a believer. :wink:

[John]

Gitana wrote: Quote: of course when the reality of the lie takes its toll...it will be a regretful thing.

For a believer. :wink:

Do you think that what someone believes will change reality?


BTW...I like your avatar..my wife is Andalusian and has a little Gitana in her.