Political Crossfire Forums

[Nathyn]

The first girl I ever fell in love with, when I was 15, gave a report in school on witchcraft. In English class, we were to write information reports on whatever we wanted -- she chose withcraft. Looking back, I know her report was poorly written. She obviously just wrote it the night before. But what intrigued me was that she claimed to be a witch and that her entire family had believed in witchcraft, for several centuries, even descending from one woman who was killed at Salem. That interested me, because for an American, I'd never thought that "magick," could be real.

Well, I'd studied it for a couple years. For a while, I joined a "Christian Wiccan," group at a local unitarian church. They were mostly frauds and very delusional. Most people believing in such, that I've come across, have been delusional. But still, I know how to practice magick and I've done it before... And I've found that it works. Magick, not in the sense of pointing and shooting a bolt of lightning or a fireball, or decapitating a chicken while chanting Satanic verses, but rather, simply taking a bath, clearing my thoughts, lighting a candle of a specific color, anointing it with oil, and then focusing on the outcome. Perhaps with a chant, perhaps not. All that really matters is the emotion put into it and that what you're doing, in some way, symbolically represents what you want to happen. In this respect, those who believe in Wicca claim that most religions practice magick when they perform rituals, such as baptism and communion in Christianity, marking one's door on passover in Judaism (not to mention Kabbalah), and praying towards Mecca and reciting all kinds of prayers in Islam.

However, since then, I've come to believe that, even if my subjective experiences yield such results, they're probably nothing more than my subjective experiences. In becoming an Atheist, I've had to reject the idea of "magick," too. To quote Penn Jillette, "When you're pro-science, that means you're an atheist, by definition." Magick and psychic ability, like God, have never been proven by science, so how can I give any creedence to them, even if I might 'feel' that a God exists or that magick works?

I'm cross-posting this thread to ask each of the religious groups what their religious views are on witchcraft.

What's Christianity's view of witchcraft? Does it work? I've read that most Christians reject that witchcraft even works.

[mODULAR mAN]

Xian believe witchcraft is real, is the work of the Devil and that witches should be killed.

"Thou shalt not suffer a Witch to live." Exodus 22:18

(Obviously, if witches didn't exist, or that they magic wasn't real, there would be no reason to kill them).

Here is an interesting article:
http://www.skepticfiles.org/ignor/witchhat.htm

When I was Xian, I was taught to consider witchcraft, astrology and other non-biblical claims of supernatural as Satanic. I truly believed that was the case (why would they lie to me?!).

[Vercingetorix]

Well, in the strictest sense (and perhaps the truest) the way you communicated to God and the saints is by prayer. And, since there is a heaven and hell, no inbetween areas on earth, and since that all miracles are divinely empowered, anything that tries to communicate with spirits other than prayer is communicating with either the devil, demons, or evil spirits. And anything that is not a miracle is by the devil, since only God can do miracles.

[ChuckBerry]

Here is what the Catholic Church teaches about magic:

Divination and magic

2115 God can reveal the future to his prophets or to other saints. Still, a sound Christian attitude consists in putting oneself confidently into the hands of Providence for whatever concerns the future, and giving up all unhealthy curiosity about it. Improvidence, however, can constitute a lack of responsibility.

2116 All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to "unveil" the future.48 Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone.

2117 All practices of magic or sorcery, by which one attempts to tame occult powers, so as to place them at one's service and have a supernatural power over others - even if this were for the sake of restoring their health - are gravely contrary to the virtue of religion. These practices are even more to be condemned when accompanied by the intention of harming someone, or when they have recourse to the intervention of demons. Wearing charms is also reprehensible. Spiritism often implies divination or magical practices; the Church for her part warns the faithful against it. Recourse to so-called traditional cures does not justify either the invocation of evil powers or the exploitation of another's credulity.

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c1a1.htm#2115

It is difficult to discern from this passage whether or not the Church believes that "occult powers" can in fact be harnessed by people, but one could interpret the passage as such. I believe that this teaching is deliberately vague on the subject so as not to give readers the idea that such powers could be harnessed. But anyway, Satan is the great deceiver, and no doubt even if he could grant some sort of power to a human, that power would be in HIS service and would ultimately backfire on the person conjuring for it.

[mODULAR mAN]

CCD wrote:
It is difficult to discern from this passage whether or not the Church believes that "occult powers" can in fact be harnessed by people, but one could interpret the passage as such. I believe that this teaching is deliberately vague on the subject so as not to give readers the idea that such powers could be harnessed. But anyway, Satan is the great deceiver, and no doubt even if he could grant some sort of power to a human, that power would be in HIS service and would ultimately backfire on the person conjuring for it.

Are you of the opinion that one can communicate with Satan? That one wrestles with Satan, or can "pray" to him (talk to him through the mind)?

Are you also of the opinion that Satan went back in time to write stories that resemble the Jesus resurrection, or that he buried dinosaur bones to confuse people?

It's something I haven't really delved into, but now I am fascinated by the qualities of Satan. I wonder if he is like God, but just a little bit lesser, or what?

[cap'n queasy]

There's some great lectures you can listen to about the occult on Walter Martin's religious info-net. It's the subject for the month.

I think he had a pretty good perspective on the matter. One of the lectures is specifically about witch craft.
http://www.waltermartin.org/realaudio.html

[cap'n queasy]

There's some great lectures you can listen to about the occult on Walter Martin's religious info-net. It's the subject for the month.

I think he had a pretty good perspective on the matter. One of the lectures is specifically about witch craft.
http://www.waltermartin.org/realaudio.html

[perdidochas]

Nathyn wrote: The first girl I ever fell in love with, when I was 15, gave a report in school on witchcraft. In English class, we were to write information reports on whatever we wanted -- she chose withcraft. Looking back, I know her report was poorly written. She obviously just wrote it the night before. But what intrigued me was that she claimed to be a witch and that her entire family had believed in witchcraft, for several centuries, even descending from one woman who was killed at Salem. That interested me, because for an American, I'd never thought that "magick," could be real.

Well, I'd studied it for a couple years. For a while, I joined a "Christian Wiccan," group at a local unitarian church. They were mostly frauds and very delusional. Most people believing in such, that I've come across, have been delusional. But still, I know how to practice magick and I've done it before... And I've found that it works. Magick, not in the sense of pointing and shooting a bolt of lightning or a fireball, or decapitating a chicken while chanting Satanic verses, but rather, simply taking a bath, clearing my thoughts, lighting a candle of a specific color, anointing it with oil, and then focusing on the outcome. Perhaps with a chant, perhaps not. All that really matters is the emotion put into it and that what you're doing, in some way, symbolically represents what you want to happen. In this respect, those who believe in Wicca claim that most religions practice magick when they perform rituals, such as baptism and communion in Christianity, marking one's door on passover in Judaism (not to mention Kabbalah), and praying towards Mecca and reciting all kinds of prayers in Islam.

However, since then, I've come to believe that, even if my subjective experiences yield such results, they're probably nothing more than my subjective experiences. In becoming an Atheist, I've had to reject the idea of "magick," too. To quote Penn Jillette, "When you're pro-science, that means you're an atheist, by definition." Magick and psychic ability, like God, have never been proven by science, so how can I give any creedence to them, even if I might 'feel' that a God exists or that magick works?

Well, I disagree with Jillette. Science does not mean atheism. Science and religion deal with two different aspects of life. They do not conflict. (to use S.J. Gould's ideas on the subject (and Gould was a scientist, not a con artist/street magician).

Nathyn wrote: I'm cross-posting this thread to ask each of the religious groups what their religious views are on witchcraft.

What's Christianity's view of witchcraft? Does it work? I've read that most Christians reject that witchcraft even works.

Witchcraft (and most "magic" like voodoo, etc.) works on people who want to believe it. Most mainline Christians believe that witchcraft does not work.

[John Galt]

Gould was also an atheist and was attacked for it religiously. God and magic are beyond the rational and therefore outside of the realm of science (outside the realm of reality in other words).

[Rankor and Pissing]

Nathyn wrote: Magick, not in the sense of pointing and shooting a bolt of lightning or a fireball, or decapitating a chicken while chanting Satanic verses, but rather, simply taking a bath, clearing my thoughts, lighting a candle of a specific color, anointing it with oil, and then focusing on the outcome. Perhaps with a chant, perhaps not. All that really matters is the emotion put into it and that what you're doing, in some way, symbolically represents what you want to happen.

Otherwise known as a type of meditiation.

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: Witchcraft (and most "magic" like voodoo, etc.) works on people who want to believe it.

A large part of any occult (or cultic) practice is the psychological manipulation of others. The word that our modern word witchcraft comes from means poisoner. There are potent poisons for both the mind and the body that can be utilized by those that practice the so-called black arts.

There is also actual contact with what I guess could best be called, in our modern parlance, extradimensional entities. This is a controversial subject. But there has been some scientific documention of so-called "supernatural" phenomena. What is looked at as "supernatural" (I would call it extradimensional) today might actually be the perfectly natural behavior of other dimensional beings and forces, that can be detected only superficially by us because of our limited ability to perceive extradimensional beings and objects.

We literally cannot see some of the things that are sitting right under our noses. In the same way that we cannot see molecules, even though everything is made of them. They simply do not fit within our frame of reference, unless special equipment or techniques are utilized. It's not too long ago that we would have looked at electricity as supernatural phenomena if we would have been exposed to it.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying these beings aren't dangerous, but that if they exist, they are natural and God created them. Supernatural is a word used because we are ignorant to the exact cause of things that happen, not that they aren't explainable with full possession of all of the facts.

[mODULAR mAN]

perdidochas wrote: Witchcraft (and most "magic" like voodoo, etc.) works on people who want to believe it. Most mainline Christians believe that witchcraft does not work.

Why does the Bible mention it repeatedly? I admire that people don't believe the Bible, but doesn't this make them not Christians (or, and Gilbert will appreciate this, not GOOD Christians)?

Which part of the Bible do you need to believe to be a Christian? Without the prophesy of the OT, Jesus is just another Zombie in mythology. (That is, there are many people who were said to have some back to life, but only Xians believe the stories of resurrection in the Bible).

http://www.skepticfiles.org/ignor/witchhat.htm

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: God and magic are beyond the rational and therefore outside of the realm of science (outside the realm of reality in other words).

Only if you think science is at it's apex and right now explains every possible thing there is to know.

It doesn't even come close. There are many facets of reality that we have only brushed the surface of, and that only a very few individuals can even barely begin to visualize at this time, through the application of advanced mathematical equations etc.

[Revenant]

mODULAR mAN wrote: perdidochas wrote: Witchcraft (and most "magic" like voodoo, etc.) works on people who want to believe it. Most mainline Christians believe that witchcraft does not work.

Why does the Bible mention it repeatedly? I admire that people don't believe the Bible, but doesn't this make them not Christians (or, and Gilbert will appreciate this, not GOOD Christians)?

Which part of the Bible do you need to believe to be a Christian? Without the prophesy of the OT, Jesus is just another Zombie in mythology. (That is, there are many people who were said to have some back to life, but only Xians believe the stories of resurrection in the Bible).

http://www.skepticfiles.org/ignor/witchhat.htm

"Believing the bible" is an oversimplification. The Bible, just like any piece of literature, has many layers. One can accept the Bible on a literal level, a metaphorical level, a thematic level, and so on and so forth. Not to mention people can pick and choose which parts of the bible they believe or disbelieve. Overall it is up to the reader to make the decision of what parts to accept or not.

This "All or Nothing" line of thinking present in most hardliner Christians puzzles me, as it seems many are unwilling to closely examine the foundation of their religion.

[John Galt]

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: God and magic are beyond the rational and therefore outside of the realm of science (outside the realm of reality in other words).

Only if you think science is at it's apex and right now explains every possible thing there is to know.

It doesn't even come close. There are many facets of reality that we have only brushed the surface of, and that only a very few individuals can even barely begin to visualize at this time, through the application of advanced mathematical equations etc.

No it is not at it's "apex" cap'n,but that does not mean that supernatural (outside of anture) are beyond the realm of science. This is a fact. The supernatural is not part of nature. God is supernatural. So is magic. I'm not saying they don't exist, I am saying they don't exist in reality.

[Revenant]

John Galt wrote: Gould was also an atheist and was attacked for it religiously. God and magic are beyond the rational and therefore outside of the realm of science (outside the realm of reality in other words).

You made a pun, you so funny :lol:

[mODULAR mAN]

John Galt wrote:
No it is not at it's "apex" cap'n,but that does not mean that supernatural (outside of anture) are beyond the realm of science. This is a fact. The supernatural is not part of nature. God is supernatural. So is magic. I'm not saying they don't exist, I am saying they don't exist in reality.

Where did you get the idea that there is even a thing called "the supernatural"? Is there a "subnatural" too? A "supranatural"? A "prenatural"? "Postnatural"?

What exactly is the definition of "Supernatural" and then, how do you know it exists? Is there a "Super-mODULAR mAN" because I can imagine it?

[cap'n queasy]

John Galt wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: God and magic are beyond the rational and therefore outside of the realm of science (outside the realm of reality in other words).

Only if you think science is at it's apex and right now explains every possible thing there is to know.

It doesn't even come close. There are many facets of reality that we have only brushed the surface of, and that only a very few individuals can even barely begin to visualize at this time, through the application of advanced mathematical equations etc.

No it is not at it's "apex" cap'n,but that does not mean that supernatural (outside of anture) are beyond the realm of science. This is a fact. The supernatural is not part of nature. God is supernatural. So is magic. I'm not saying they don't exist, I am saying they don't exist in reality.

No one knows the true nature of reality. It's starting to look a lot like a digital simulation on a quantum level. Physical material is a wave of charged particles. You can knock on your desk and say "That's solid" but the fact is, it is an electromagnetic field between the extremely tiny particles of matter that you get the feeling of "solidness" from, it's 90% empty space.

When one observes matter on a quantum level the observer's presence affects the results, particles pop in and out of existence, there's all kinds of strange waves going through the cosmos etc. No one knows what is going on here, really, it's all weird to us. It's all speculation, rationalism is no less speculative than any other scheme developed to explain our surroundings.

[ChuckBerry]

mODULAR mAN wrote:

Are you of the opinion that one can communicate with Satan? That one wrestles with Satan, or can "pray" to him (talk to him through the mind)?
I'm not sure. I am quite certain that one can open themselves to nefarious influence and perhaps have the feeling that they control the demonic forces or perhaps that they have a dialogue with Satan. But I am pretty sure that the influence is, in fact, one way.

mODULAR mAN wrote: Are you also of the opinion that Satan went back in time to write stories that resemble the Jesus resurrection, or that he buried dinosaur bones to confuse people?
No and no. I am a Catholic, we believe in the process of evolution and accept all other scientific conclusions that have a rational basis. The young earth theory has no such basis, so we do not believe it.

mODULAR mAN wrote: It's something I haven't really delved into, but now I am fascinated by the qualities of Satan. I wonder if he is like God, but just a little bit lesser, or what?
Curiosity killed the cat. Satan's power has one profound difference from God's: Satan cannot create. He himself was created, and therefore can only manipulate God's creation. Be careful of opening yourself to that manipulation.

[eynon]

In response to Exodus 22:18:

This verse in and of it self does not mean that the bible states that supernatural magic and witchcraft exist, mearly it addresses the very real impact people claiming to use and manipulate such arts can have on a pre-modern society. Consider how "witchcraft" effects many societies in Africa today: http://search.bbc.co.uk/cgi-bin/search/results.pl?scope=all&edition=i&q=African+witches&go.x=0&go.y=0&go=go

In history it's all too common for witches, or sorceresses to become entwined and even escalate different conflicts and blood feuds that tend to rock tribal societies like that of the ancient Israelites. Simply put they can be a destabilizing force in such a culture by utilizing purely nature means, as Cap'n pointed out the root of our word for witch stems from a term for poison.

Ergo no witches allowed in ancient Hebrew society.