Political Crossfire Forums

[slitedeviance]

Tepic wrote: slitedeviance wrote: Do you not think after the millionth time that someone had run into the airport and shouted ANTHRAX someone might have realised what was going on?
Having trouble parsing this - do you mean airport security would stop reacting to anthrax threats, or that people would stop making them?

Sorry, possibly wasn't clear...

I'm saying that if someone ran into an airport, shouted ANTHRAX and provoked a reaction, fair enought the primary responsiblity of the security is to protect the people there, so the someone should expect a response, possibly deadly.

If someone had done it for thirty odd years I'd have expected the airport security to have realised that maybe the first hundred or so didn't actually pose that great a threat they should modify their response accordingly.

[smo69]

Do we know the sizes of these rocks? How about the precise speed in which they were traveling at their projected targets (IDF)?

Wow, am I this bored?

[agentkgb]

Unfortunately, you apparently are.

[prometeus]

BTW, as a rule of thumb, how fast, how far, and how many times does one have to throw rocks before graduating to hand grenades or RPGs?

Would you know the difference if amid a barrage of stones lobed at you one would be a grenade? Care to find out the hard way?

[SpartanPhalanx]

prometeus wrote: BTW, as a rule of thumb, how fast, how far, and how many times does one have to throw rocks before graduating to hand grenades or RPGs?

Would you know the difference if amid a barrage of stones lobed at you one would be a grenade? Care to find out the hard way?

Civilised countries don't murder stone throwers. It's quite simple really. Tear gas, water canon both do the job very well. In Greece the anarchists go on a rampage probably once a year and they trash pretty much everything on their route. The Greek police get into their armoured vehicles and make them cry like they've never cried before with tear gas. Then they follow that up with blasting the sh*t out of them with water cannon.

After the offenders are knocked into next week, they are then arrested.

Problem solved.

It is shocking how much Israeli apologists defend their forces' murder of children.

And they throw their arms skyward while screaming "why" when Palestinians retaliate.

[bunny]

^^^^ yeah. what's with all the ridiculous justification of teh IDF & it's tactics in here... pathetic

[The Comrade]

bunny wrote: ^^^^ yeah. what's with all the ridiculous justification of teh IDF & it's tactics in here... pathetic


what's with people creaming in their pants everytime someone blows themselves up in market place.

[bunny]

The Comrade wrote: bunny wrote: ^^^^ yeah. what's with all the ridiculous justification of teh IDF & it's tactics in here... pathetic


what's with people creaming in their pants everytime someone blows themselves up in market place.


Where? When?

In Iraq...? That's brutal & sad as hell, but has nothing to do with the topic at hand. If you're talking about Israel, well, it's been quite a while since there's been a suicide attack & that has nothing to do with children throwing rocks & getting killed for it!

[SpartanPhalanx]

The Comrade wrote: bunny wrote: ^^^^ yeah. what's with all the ridiculous justification of teh IDF & it's tactics in here... pathetic


what's with people creaming in their pants everytime someone blows themselves up in market place.

I"m sorry, you must be confused about which thread you're in.

This thread is about the murders of children by the IDF for throwing rocks.

[The Comrade]

SpartanPhalanx wrote:

I"m sorry, you must be confused about which thread you're in.

This thread is about the murders of children by the IDF for throwing rocks.


good on ya spartan, repeat what someone else said.

[SpartanPhalanx]

The Comrade wrote: SpartanPhalanx wrote:

I"m sorry, you must be confused about which thread you're in.

This thread is about the murders of children by the IDF for throwing rocks.


good on ya spartan, repeat what someone else said.


Smarten up then ya twit!.......:-)

[programmusic]

SpartanPhalanx wrote:

This thread is about the murders of children by the IDF for throwing rocks.

No, this thread is about the killing of someone who threw rocks at a soldier. It is not the whole I.D.F. who did this. Though you wish it was.

[MoscowMatt]

slitedeviance wrote: You are actually in all seriousness advocating the killing of Palestinian children who throw rocks at the IDF in case they grow up to become militants? You are in all honesty condoning infanticide?

So your saying the IDF would be better saying to all these families "Hey, your son / daughter was at risk but since we wiped out all the Palestinian children, it's peace all round!"



Oh please did I say ALL Palestinian children erm no!!! Stop getting so hysterical!! :roll:

Yes well done I do advocate the shooting of those throwing rocks. The problem with this whole war on terror etc etc is that we have to pander to the civil liberty/ human rights/ militant huggers when what is needed is very robust no nonsense action. It's ain't pretty but it will sure as hell go a lot further towards getting the job done.

If Palestinian children are going to embark on adult acts i.e violence strapping bombs to themselves (and this HAS happened) then they should expect an adult response. Like I say how would you deal with the child soldiers in Africa murdering their way through the local population? 'Oh we can't kill them, their kids'. Of course the adults are quite happy to encourage their children towards violence because they know that if they get killed people like you will cry outrage, how's that for propaganda?

Sadly people like you are playing right into the hands of the militants. They are experts at manipulating the minds of people. Until the likes of you re-evaluate the situation we will continue to see children sent needlessly to their deaths.

What hope is there for Palestine when it's children are encouraged to pick up rocks rather than the pen?

[Plato & Socrates]

MoscowMatt wrote: slitedeviance wrote: You are actually in all seriousness advocating the killing of Palestinian children who throw rocks at the IDF in case they grow up to become militants? You are in all honesty condoning infanticide?

So your saying the IDF would be better saying to all these families "Hey, your son / daughter was at risk but since we wiped out all the Palestinian children, it's peace all round!"



Oh please did I say ALL Palestinian children erm no!!! Stop getting so hysterical!! :roll:

Yes well done I do advocate the shooting of those throwing rocks. The problem with this whole war on terror etc etc is that we have to pander to the civil liberty/ human rights/ militant huggers when what is needed is very robust no nonsense action. It's ain't pretty but it will sure as hell go a lot further towards getting the job done.

If Palestinian children are going to embark on adult acts i.e violence strapping bombs to themselves (and this HAS happened) then they should expect an adult response. Like I say how would you deal with the child soldiers in Africa murdering their way through the local population? 'Oh we can't kill them, their kids'. Of course the adults are quite happy to encourage their children towards violence because they know that if they get killed people like you will cry outrage, how's that for propaganda?

Sadly people like you are playing right into the hands of the militants. They are experts at manipulating the minds of people. Until the likes of you re-evaluate the situation we will continue to see children sent needlessly to their deaths.

What hope is there for Palestine when it's children are encouraged to pick up rocks rather than the pen?

A s usual you have it back to front. Yet again you put the cart before the horse. Show me any article of where a civil liberty group or Amnesty international, asks for a different method of engaging African Child soldiers with fire arms, compared to the method of engagement with an adult? Yeah thought so. Talking out of your rectum again. :roll: I've been to Uganda and seen the effect of the lords resistance army whilst on work there. You have'nt got a clue what your talking about. These young children are engaged, once they pick up arms. Like an adult would be. Your arguement is devoid of logic. Let me remind you the parameters for constructing a winnable debate.

'The branch of psychology that deals with reasoning is logic' So lets see where the consistency in your stance lays. Those usual G8 conferences, the usual anti capitalist protest. How many time have we seen incendiary devices let alone rocks, bottles and anything else to hand been thrown at the police or army providing security at the event. So by your logic, the police in Britain and France, should openly fire on any person throwing such devices? :lol:

By defending Israel and by extension the IDF, you just expose your own views. It has nothing to do with rocks or imminent death faced by IDF soldiers due to rocks (when inside the vehicles) But in your own words "It's ain't pretty but it will sure as hell go a lot further towards getting the job done" What job is that? When you take up a job, it invariably entail a end goal at the end. What do you wish to achieve by committing infanticide on Palestinian stone throwers?

You like many other here, put a different value on a Miztvah life than a Arab or a Muslim. Watching your systematic defense of the indefensible is testament to that. The throwing of stones = the forfeiting of ones life. ummm :think:
If you went on British or western T.V advocating that in our society, you would be laughed at and derided. Advocate the same stance in the occupied territory's conducted by the IDF, and you will find support for your stance.

The reinforcement of ones views, however immoral, is the first step to legitimizing them, and you recieve enough of that here. Remember how the inner circle of the Hitlers SS discussed the final solution. If you advocate the killing of stone throwers as normal response. I shudder to think of what you view as a tough decision to make.

[Nico]

MoscowMatt wrote:

What hope is there for Palestine when it's children are encouraged to pick up rocks rather than the pen?


When tanks drive through your streets and you don't exist on your own soil in the eyes of the world, no one need encourage you to throw rocks at the foreigners who control every practical aspect of your 'life'.


Remember when the Chinese ran a barbed wire fence around your town, took away your right of travel, patrolled your streets, killed kids who went near their wire? Remember how you wrote to your senator, but then remembered he didn't exist because legally neither do you, even though you were born just down the road and you can trace your line back a thousand years in one village? Wait, that's someone else's form of reality, and we are getting pissed at them for throwing rocks at the people with the thumb on them, in their own streets.



If a Palestinian picks up a pen, he gets called Edward Said, and denounced by the same people who can't abide the rocks.

There is a foreign army controlling a people in their own neighborhoods. In what world does peace spring from that?

[slitedeviance]

MoscowMatt wrote: Oh please did I say ALL Palestinian children erm no!!! Stop getting so hysterical!! :roll:

Did I get hysterical? No!! So stop getting up on your high horse :roll:

Quote: Yes well done I do advocate the shooting of those throwing rocks. The problem with this whole war on terror etc etc is that we have to pander to the civil liberty/ human rights/ militant huggers when what is needed is very robust no nonsense action.

Militant huggers? :rofl: Dude, you seriously have a problem with perspective.

You also seem to have an issue with bigotry. From your viewpoint it seems that Israel is duty bound to respond with lethal force to non-lethal actions carried out by kids. Do you honestly think thats a good path towards peace in the middle east? Or am I mistaken and all your interested in is the continued dominance of Israel no matter what the cost?

It's absolutely no wonder that Iran wants nuclear weapons when dealing with a state that is happy to shoot kids. If Israel has the unwavering and uncritical support of people with your stance, then hell, I want Syria and Jordan and the Palestinians to have nukes as well. Let's make it fair all round.

Quote: Like I say how would you deal with the child soldiers in Africa murdering their way through the local population?

You clearly have no idea about the true situation with child soldiers in Africa. Having direct experience myself, all I can say is once you take away the marijuana and skag that the militias feed to these kids to keep the emotionally numb they revert to being kids, playing footbal etc etc.

I guess in your world the only option would be to kill the kids. I mean, they've used a weapon and are clearly a threat towards anyone at any point (in the general non-specific way that fearmongers like to use). Whereas some militant hugging organisation such as, hmmm, OXFAM, would turn round and say that the path to progress is to stop nations selling arms to developing nations.

Unless you can grasp the full picture and answers you try and put forward are short sighted, and as it seems in this case, downright dangerous.

Quote: Sadly people like you are playing right into the hands of the militants. They are experts at manipulating the minds of people. Until the likes of you re-evaluate the situation we will continue to see children sent needlessly to their deaths.

I'm sorry, weren't you just advocating needlessly killing children?

Quote: What hope is there for Palestine when it's children are encouraged to pick up rocks rather than the pen?

None, while bigots continue to support policies that stop them being able to afford pens or learn to read and write. Do you actually understand that? They cannot afford to be properly educated so why try and act as though they have a choice in the matter?

[MoscowMatt]

Plato & Socrates wrote: MoscowMatt wrote: slitedeviance wrote: You are actually in all seriousness advocating the killing of Palestinian children who throw rocks at the IDF in case they grow up to become militants? You are in all honesty condoning infanticide?

So your saying the IDF would be better saying to all these families "Hey, your son / daughter was at risk but since we wiped out all the Palestinian children, it's peace all round!"



Oh please did I say ALL Palestinian children erm no!!! Stop getting so hysterical!! :roll:

Yes well done I do advocate the shooting of those throwing rocks. The problem with this whole war on terror etc etc is that we have to pander to the civil liberty/ human rights/ militant huggers when what is needed is very robust no nonsense action. It's ain't pretty but it will sure as hell go a lot further towards getting the job done.

If Palestinian children are going to embark on adult acts i.e violence strapping bombs to themselves (and this HAS happened) then they should expect an adult response. Like I say how would you deal with the child soldiers in Africa murdering their way through the local population? 'Oh we can't kill them, their kids'. Of course the adults are quite happy to encourage their children towards violence because they know that if they get killed people like you will cry outrage, how's that for propaganda?

Sadly people like you are playing right into the hands of the militants. They are experts at manipulating the minds of people. Until the likes of you re-evaluate the situation we will continue to see children sent needlessly to their deaths.

What hope is there for Palestine when it's children are encouraged to pick up rocks rather than the pen?

A s usual you have it back to front. Yet again you put the cart before the horse. Show me any article of where a civil liberty group or Amnesty international, asks for a different method of engaging African Child soldiers with fire arms, compared to the method of engagement with an adult? Yeah thought so. Talking out of your rectum again. :roll: I've been to Uganda and seen the effect of the lords resistance army whilst on work there. You have'nt got a clue what your talking about. These young children are engaged, once they pick up arms. Like an adult would be. Your arguement is devoid of logic. Let me remind you the parameters for constructing a winnable debate.

'The branch of psychology that deals with reasoning is logic' So lets see where the consistency in your stance lays. Those usual G8 conferences, the usual anti capitalist protest. How many time have we seen incendiary devices let alone rocks, bottles and anything else to hand been thrown at the police or army providing security at the event. So by your logic, the police in Britain and France, should openly fire on any person throwing such devices? :lol:

By defending Israel and by extension the IDF, you just expose your own views. It has nothing to do with rocks or imminent death faced by IDF soldiers due to rocks (when inside the vehicles) But in your own words "It's ain't pretty but it will sure as hell go a lot further towards getting the job done" What job is that? When you take up a job, it invariably entail a end goal at the end. What do you wish to achieve by committing infanticide on Palestinian stone throwers?

You like many other here, put a different value on a Miztvah life than a Arab or a Muslim. Watching your systematic defense of the indefensible is testament to that. The throwing of stones = the forfeiting of ones life. ummm :think:
If you went on British or western T.V advocating that in our society, you would be laughed at and derided. Advocate the same stance in the occupied territory's conducted by the IDF, and you will find support for your stance.

The reinforcement of ones views, however immoral, is the first step to legitimizing them, and you recieve enough of that here. Remember how the inner circle of the Hitlers SS discussed the final solution. If you advocate the killing of stone throwers as normal response. I shudder to think of what you view as a tough decision to make.

Oh deary me. So you've been to Uganda big deal. That somehow makes you more qualified on a subject than anyone else. Hey I've lived in the Middle East does that mean as a result of that I know more about it than you and my opinion is always right over yours?! By your logic erm yes!!! :lol:

With regards to shooting protesters at G8 summits. That's a whole different scenario. Logic, remember how important that is now! Dictates that in it's context that is all it is a protest.These people will not go on to murder those at the G8 or blow themselves up. Palestine is a very different kettle of fish. But if you must make ridiculous analogies does that then mean I can throw stones at the police if I don't want them to be there? By YOUR logic I have the right to do that!!!! :roll:

It's always poor Palestinians with you isn't it. Well you know what I agreed, up until the point when they elected a TERRORIST organisation to govern their country. One that is the main barricade between the peace that their own president wants!!

The cycle of violence can only end when Palestine renounces terrorism, people like you just don't get what will happen if we let the terrorists win!

[MoscowMatt]

slitedeviance wrote: MoscowMatt wrote: Oh please did I say ALL Palestinian children erm no!!! Stop getting so hysterical!! :roll:

Did I get hysterical? No!! So stop getting up on your high horse :roll:

Quote: Yes well done I do advocate the shooting of those throwing rocks. The problem with this whole war on terror etc etc is that we have to pander to the civil liberty/ human rights/ militant huggers when what is needed is very robust no nonsense action.

Militant huggers? :rofl: Dude, you seriously have a problem with perspective.

You also seem to have an issue with bigotry. From your viewpoint it seems that Israel is duty bound to respond with lethal force to non-lethal actions carried out by kids. Do you honestly think thats a good path towards peace in the middle east? Or am I mistaken and all your interested in is the continued dominance of Israel no matter what the cost?

It's absolutely no wonder that Iran wants nuclear weapons when dealing with a state that is happy to shoot kids. If Israel has the unwavering and uncritical support of people with your stance, then hell, I want Syria and Jordan and the Palestinians to have nukes as well. Let's make it fair all round.

Quote: Like I say how would you deal with the child soldiers in Africa murdering their way through the local population?

You clearly have no idea about the true situation with child soldiers in Africa. Having direct experience myself, all I can say is once you take away the marijuana and skag that the militias feed to these kids to keep the emotionally numb they revert to being kids, playing footbal etc etc.

I guess in your world the only option would be to kill the kids. I mean, they've used a weapon and are clearly a threat towards anyone at any point (in the general non-specific way that fearmongers like to use). Whereas some militant hugging organisation such as, hmmm, OXFAM, would turn round and say that the path to progress is to stop nations selling arms to developing nations.

Unless you can grasp the full picture and answers you try and put forward are short sighted, and as it seems in this case, downright dangerous.

Quote: Sadly people like you are playing right into the hands of the militants. They are experts at manipulating the minds of people. Until the likes of you re-evaluate the situation we will continue to see children sent needlessly to their deaths.

I'm sorry, weren't you just advocating needlessly killing children?

Quote: What hope is there for Palestine when it's children are encouraged to pick up rocks rather than the pen?

None, while bigots continue to support policies that stop them being able to afford pens or learn to read and write. Do you actually understand that? They cannot afford to be properly educated so why try and act as though they have a choice in the matter?

Child soldiers have also been used in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. According to the Coalition to Stop the Use of Child Soldiers' "2004 Global Report on the Use of Child Soldiers," there were at least nine documented suicide attacks involving Palestinian minors between October 2000 and March 2004: "There was no evidence of systematic recruitment of children by Palestinian armed groups. However, children are used as messengers and couriers, and in some cases as fighters and suicide bombers in attacks on Israeli soldiers and civilians. All the main political groups involve children in this way, including Fatah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine." According to Israeli security forces, there have been 229 cases of minors involved in militant activity.

Arab journalist Huda Al-Hussein wrote in the London newspaper Al-Sharq Al-Awsat: "While UN organizations save child-soldiers, especially in Africa, from the control of militia leaders who hurl them into the furnace of gang-fighting, some Palestinian leaders… consciously issue orders with the purpose of ending their childhood, even if it means their last breath." (Oct. 27, 2000, translated by MEMRI, Arab Journalist Decries Palestinian Child-Soldiers Special Dispatch 146, Nov. 1, 2000). In an interview with the Kuwaiti newspaper Azzaman (June 20, 2002), Mahmoud Abbas condemned the practice, saying that he opposed "that little children go to die", stating that "[i]t is a horrible thing. At least 40 children in Rafah became cripples after their hands were blown off by pipe bombs. They received 5 shekels [slightly over $1] to throw them" (Quoted in the Jordanian newspaper Alrai)

On May 23, 2005, Amnesty International reiterated its calls to Palestinian armed groups to put an immediate end to the use of children in armed activities: "Palestinian armed groups must not use children under any circumstances to carry out armed attacks or to transport weapons or other material."


Ooooo but if Israel dare to kill one of these lovely little darlings!! Do you honestly think these kids are ONLY involved in throwing rocks! My how naive can you get!! :roll:

As for Africa if you had a gun and were faced by a child soldier with one what would YOU do?

It's amazing how 'moral' people can be behind their computers without stopping to think how they would react if they were in a situation for themselves!

[slitedeviance]

MoscowMatt wrote: It's amazing how 'moral' people can be behind their computers without stopping to think how they would react if they were in a situation for themselves!

Full reply to follow... but I'd just make the point that as I spent 9 months in Sierra Leone I might have a tad of an idea what it's like to meet an armed child soldier. And whilst I didn't receive any qualifications for this, it does mean I have a far greater understanding of the situation over there than yourself. Or are you disputing that as well?

It's amazing how 'immoral' people think they are the only ones with real world experience whilst also sitting behind computers...

[slitedeviance]

MoscowMatt wrote: Child soldiers have also been used in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. According to the Coalition to Stop the Use of Child Soldiers' "2004 Global Report on the Use of Child Soldiers," there were at least nine documented suicide attacks involving Palestinian minors between October 2000 and March 2004: "There was no evidence of systematic recruitment of children by Palestinian armed groups. However, children are used as messengers and couriers, and in some cases as fighters and suicide bombers in attacks on Israeli soldiers and civilians. All the main political groups involve children in this way, including Fatah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine." According to Israeli security forces, there have been 229 cases of minors involved in militant activity.

Arab journalist Huda Al-Hussein wrote in the London newspaper Al-Sharq Al-Awsat: "While UN organizations save child-soldiers, especially in Africa, from the control of militia leaders who hurl them into the furnace of gang-fighting, some Palestinian leaders… consciously issue orders with the purpose of ending their childhood, even if it means their last breath." (Oct. 27, 2000, translated by MEMRI, Arab Journalist Decries Palestinian Child-Soldiers Special Dispatch 146, Nov. 1, 2000). In an interview with the Kuwaiti newspaper Azzaman (June 20, 2002), Mahmoud Abbas condemned the practice, saying that he opposed "that little children go to die", stating that "[i]t is a horrible thing. At least 40 children in Rafah became cripples after their hands were blown off by pipe bombs. They received 5 shekels [slightly over $1] to throw them" (Quoted in the Jordanian newspaper Alrai)

On May 23, 2005, Amnesty International reiterated its calls to Palestinian armed groups to put an immediate end to the use of children in armed activities: "Palestinian armed groups must not use children under any circumstances to carry out armed attacks or to transport weapons or other material."


Ooooo but if Israel dare to kill one of these lovely little darlings!! Do you honestly think these kids are ONLY involved in throwing rocks! My how naive can you get!! :roll:

As for Africa if you had a gun and were faced by a child soldier with one what would YOU do?

It's amazing how 'moral' people can be behind their computers without stopping to think how they would react if they were in a situation for themselves!

Okay, so full reply now...

You seem to want to skew the issue away from the fact that the IDF shot two kids for throwing rocks into an entire debate about the Palestinian use of child soldiers. Fair point to raise, but I'd say do it in another thread where I will happily condemn any militant group that arms children for use in the conflict.

Essentially what you have stated is that the IDF has every right to shoot stone throwers no matter what age because they are (1) putting IDF members lives at risk and (2) will grow up to become militants.

On point (1) perhaps you would like to back this up with examples and sources for IDF casualties caused by people throwing these nasty little stones, and further expand to discuss why the IDF then feels no need to provide it's troops with adequate protection against these deadly projectiles.

Point (2) I will accept. I have no argument to state that these children will not grow up to become kalashnikov weilding militants. However as your stated solution is to kill any children throwing rocks at IDF troops perhaps you could explain how this will ensure the safety and security of Israel?