Political Crossfire Forums

[MoscowMatt]

slitedeviance wrote: smo69 wrote: Quote: is the PA is in a position to provide free and effective education to the children in their territoies? Of course not. They can't even afford to pay to have the rubbish collected from the streets. It's no use arguing that they should raise themselves above militancy if the continued stance of the international community puts them in a position where they cannot acheive this.
I agree. How could you possibly deal with people who are use to eating with one hand and wiping their as$ with the other...

The same way I'd expect to deal with arrogant a$$holes from the richest nation in the world who clearly have no concept of what reality is for around 60 - 70% of the worlds population, and eat with the same hand they wipe their a$$ with.

prometeus wrote: why?

If you had a similar rate of people throwing stones(sometimes at deadly speeds) at people with machine guns(18 to 20 year olds no less). You would have a similar rate of those people being killed.

Firstly, can you clarify what "deadly speed" is for a rock? And how is that affected by the presence of Kevlar helmets?

And we're not dealing with a situation where it's random violence between one group with rocks and one group with guns. It's one of the worlds (supposedly) best trained and equipped armed forces against a bunch of kids with rocks.

These Kevlar helmets don't cover your face so there are still areas where the rocks can hit which would cause serious even fatal injuries. Like prometeus says, why aren't they doing their homework? The rock throwers are far nore likely to become full blown gun caryring militants, so excuse me if I don't get misty eyed over a few deaths.

It's simple really don't throw the rocks. Find a more constructive way to convey your feelings! Then they might get more sympathy from the international community.

[smo69]

Quote: The same way I'd expect to deal with arrogant a$$holes from the richest nation in the world who clearly have no concept of what reality is for around 60 - 70% of the worlds population, and eat with the same hand they wipe their a$$ with.
LoL.

I wasn't going to argue it, but I'll edit this post and add that I wasn't making a joke. In Palestine, it is a common practice to use the left hand for that cleaning activity, and the right hand for eating. This is a result of there being a lack of fresh water. Modern methods sometimes call for a hose rather than the hand...

I know your angry that we threw your tea overboard, but that's no reason to be jealous. :wink:

[slitedeviance]

MoscowMatt wrote: These Kevlar helmets don't cover your face so there are still areas where the rocks can hit which would cause serious even fatal injuries.

...and the kids are protected with?

Quote: Like prometeus says, why aren't they doing their homework?

Have you looked into the state of the education system in the PA at the moment? Perhaps if the international community was willing to provide funds towards reconstructing the education system the point would be valid.


Quote: The rock throwers are far nore likely to become full blown gun caryring militants, so excuse me if I don't get misty eyed over a few deaths.

Ah thats right. Lets get them before they get guns!! So you're proposal for reducing militant groups would be to kill children?

Quote: It's simple really don't throw the rocks. Find a more constructive way to convey your feelings! Then they might get more sympathy from the international community.

How about you suggest reasonable and acheivable solutions for this then. Seriously, what is their alternative?

[programmusic]

have u been to israel? most soldiers are not wearing armor and helmets

[bunny]

Hey, I've got an idea... though, it's probably too simple & logical. What if, when soldiers, who are on occupied land, start getting rocks thrown at them, for being on occpied land, they leave the occupied land.

IMO, palestinians have every right to throw rocks at soldiers who are occupying them - those same soldiers donot have the right to fire bullets back in defense. If they wanna defend themselves they can retreat and protect themselves passively, from thier own sovereign territory!

[slitedeviance]

smo69 wrote: I wasn't going to argue it, but I'll edit this post and add that I wasn't making a joke. In Palestine, it is a common practice to use the left hand for that cleaning activity, and the right hand for eating. This is a result of there being a lack of fresh water.

Yeah. Was about the same out in Africa...made me slightly self concious about using both my hands...

Quote: I know your angry that we threw your tea overboard, but that's no reason to be jealous. :wink:

GD you for ruining our Tea. You should know there is nothing more sacred to an Englishman!!!

Quote: have u been to israel? most soldiers are not wearing armor and helmets

Are you suggesting the IDF doesn't properly protect it's soldiers against deadly deadly rocks?

[programmusic]

yes, Israeli soldiers do not wear armor.

And yes stones are deadly.

[MoscowMatt]

slitedeviance wrote: ...and the kids are protected with?

So you reckon it would be OK if they had bullet proof vests or something?? :lol:

Quote:
Have you looked into the state of the education system in the PA at the moment? Perhaps if the international community was willing to provide funds towards reconstructing the education system the point would be valid.

That would be the aid they would be getting if a Terrorist organisation were not running their country?!!! Perhaps Hamas should be buying things other than guns?


Quote:
Ah thats right. Lets get them before they get guns!! So you're proposal for reducing militant groups would be to kill children?

Yes it's called nipping the problem in the bud!! Or perhaps you would like to go and visit some bereaved Israeli families and say sorry for your loss, if we had acted sooner then your loved ones would still be alive.

What is it they say? Ah yes 'prevention is better than cure'.

If you found a baby crocodile in a lake where people swim would you remove it straight away or wait for it to eat someone??!!

Look at the child soldiers in Africa are you saying that they should not be fought against even though they use violence themselves?
Quote:
How about you suggest reasonable and achievable solutions for this then. Seriously, what is their alternative?

Simple by renouncing violence and then highlighting their problems they will attract for more support and sympathy than if they continue to fight. A government can never give into terrorists. If they do then it sets a very dangerous precedent. The only way the people of Palestine can ever hope to have anything near what they want would be through peaceful means. Sadly for the ordinary people there, there are far too many who do not wish to pursue that path.

[slitedeviance]

MoscowMatt wrote: Yes it's called nipping the problem in the bud!! Or perhaps you would like to go and visit some bereaved Israeli families and say sorry for your loss, if we had acted sooner then your loved ones would still be alive.

What is it they say? Ah yes 'prevention is better than cure'.

If you found a baby crocodile in a lake where people swim would you remove it straight away or wait for it to eat someone??!!

Look at the child soldiers in Africa are you saying that they should not be fought against even though they use violence themselves?

So let me get this straight...

You are actually in all seriousness advocating the killing of Palestinian children who throw rocks at the IDF in case they grow up to become militants? You are in all honesty condoning infanticide?

So your saying the IDF would be better saying to all these families "Hey, your son / daughter was at risk but since we wiped out all the Palestinian children, it's peace all round!"

Well if thats the level of morality you operate under fair enough, I'd say it says volumes about the people who decide that Israel has a blank cheque to act with complete impunity in contravention of all treatises regarding protection of civilians in warfare.

[logic-rules]

programmusic wrote: slitedeviance wrote: programmusic wrote: If you had say, in new york city, or anywhere in the world. Ten thousands cases of people throwing stones at people with machine guns, you would find a similar, if not higher level of those people being killed.

Come on dude, thats not really a good example is it?

why?

If you had a similar rate of people throwing stones(sometimes at deadly speeds) at people with machine guns(18 to 20 year olds no less). You would have a similar rate of those people being killed.


i would completely disagree with you on that one. if this did happen in nyc and the soldiers that killed the kids were not investigated, there would be riots. anywhere else, if it did happen, they would be condemned by the US, maybe sanctions and the lifting of foreign aid. is that going to happen here? not likely

[Plato & Socrates]

slitedeviance wrote: MoscowMatt wrote: Yes it's called nipping the problem in the bud!! Or perhaps you would like to go and visit some bereaved Israeli families and say sorry for your loss, if we had acted sooner then your loved ones would still be alive.

What is it they say? Ah yes 'prevention is better than cure'.

If you found a baby crocodile in a lake where people swim would you remove it straight away or wait for it to eat someone??!!

Look at the child soldiers in Africa are you saying that they should not be fought against even though they use violence themselves?

So let me get this straight...

You are actually in all seriousness advocating the killing of Palestinian children who throw rocks at the IDF in case they grow up to become militants? You are in all honesty condoning infanticide?

So your saying the IDF would be better saying to all these families "Hey, your son / daughter was at risk but since we wiped out all the Palestinian children, it's peace all round!"

Well if thats the level of morality you operate under fair enough, I'd say it says volumes about the people who decide that Israel has a blank cheque to act with complete impunity in contravention of all treatises regarding protection of civilians in warfare.

This is'nt even a case about protecting Israeli soldiers, this is a debate about the terms and conditions applied to Israeli infanticide. Moscowtwatts idea of prevention is better than the cure, is as depraved and as logical as people wanting to get rid of Jews from there communities in Europe pre 1945. Evidence shows that any community Jews lived in, there was always trouble between the indigenous population and there Jewish guests.

So there for, with that overwhelming evidence and simpleton logic. This proves conclusively that the Jews were the problem, and because the Jews are the problem, anything that befell them was warranted and legitimate. Because history shows Jews were the problem, compared to there neighbours.

Well we all know where this kind of thinking gets us and leads to dont we? Concentration camps and the colour of Prussian blue. But Moscow, it starts with a morality bi-pass, of acts like you defend. Yeah why not lets shoot little kids now, because they might, just might end up has terrorists. (based on what evidence?) You sound like Joseph Goebbels, talking about the Jewish problem, putting all the Jews in one box, with a one size fits all fix. Shame on you. :roll:

Your talking about the killing of kids and defending it, I am f**king genuinely shocked. I now genuinely understand how people could turn a blind eye and even indorse Nazi behaviour towards the Jews. Just watching you, someone I thought was average, completely set aside morality, with many others on here. Defending this behaviour by the IDF? Speechless.

[The Comrade]

logic-rules wrote: Death

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061017/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians_3;_ylt=AvKf3gCip2O4Apy_KpEe41AUvioA;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl


if they are going to die they might as well strap a bomb on themselves and take out some idf

two militants were with those that were killed.


hmm throwing rocks at a tank with two militants....wait..i think...i think...

holy s**t doesn't that make you a militant too?

[agentkgb]

The Comrade wrote: logic-rules wrote: Death

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061017/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians_3;_ylt=AvKf3gCip2O4Apy_KpEe41AUvioA;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl


if they are going to die they might as well strap a bomb on themselves and take out some idf

two militants were with those that were killed.


hmm throwing rocks at a tank with two militants....wait..i think...i think...

holy s**t doesn't that make you a militant too?
Maybe I'm misreading the article and/or misreading your post, but the article says
Yahoo News wrote: Later Tuesday, two more Palestinians were killed by army gunfire in Qabatiyeh after throwing stones at an army jeep, Palestinian security officials said. The dead were identified as Mohammed Kmeil, 16, who was shot in the neck, and Hani Khalil Kmeil, 20, who was shot in the chest.
The kids were a separate incident. They weren't with the militants.

[The Comrade]

i misread the article.


my point is that if you pull s**t like that expect a response.


remember the boston massacre? it's the same thing. a bunch of angry protestors began throwing rocks and ice at the soldiers and one man gave the order to fire.

[Tepic]

Firing at people isn't a nice thing to do. Throwing rocks at armed personnel doesn't seem a clever thing to do either.

Like walking up to airport security and saying "Oh look. ANTHRAX!"

[slitedeviance]

Tepic wrote: Firing at people isn't a nice thing to do. Throwing rocks at armed personnel doesn't seem a clever thing to do either.

Like walking up to airport security and saying "Oh look. ANTHRAX!"

Do you not think after the millionth time that someone had run into the airport and shouted ANTHRAX someone might have realised what was going on? Because we're not talking about anything new. This has been going on for years and years and years.

[The Comrade]

does it make it any better that it's been happening for years?


kick a dog enough times and it'll bite back.

[slitedeviance]

The Comrade wrote: does it make it any better that it's been happening for years?
No, and you'll note that I never said it did.

Quote: kick a dog enough times and it'll bite back.

Is that honestly the best argument for the actions of the IDF?

"Well, we figured they've been doing it for years and we'd finally had enough of their deadly deadly rock throwing shenanigans, so we shot them!"

Possibly if someone could link to a source showing the number of IDF members killed by these deadly deadly rocks and slingshots then I'd reasses my position. Had a search myself and couldn't find anything...

[Tepic]

slitedeviance wrote: Do you not think after the millionth time that someone had run into the airport and shouted ANTHRAX someone might have realised what was going on?
Having trouble parsing this - do you mean airport security would stop reacting to anthrax threats, or that people would stop making them?

[The Comrade]

slitedeviance wrote:
No, and you'll note that I never said it did.

i was asking you a question. so get off the defensive.



slitedeviance wrote: Is that honestly the best argument for the actions of the IDF?

"Well, we figured they've been doing it for years and we'd finally had enough of their deadly deadly rock throwing shenanigans, so we shot them!"

Possibly if someone could link to a source showing the number of IDF members killed by these deadly deadly rocks and slingshots then I'd reasses my position. Had a search myself and couldn't find anything...

ever have rocks thrown at you? it doesn't feel nice.


if i had a gun and someone threw rocks at me i would shoot them. the fact that this isn't widespread shows that the soldiers in the IDF have quite a bit of self-control.