Political Crossfire Forums

[programmusic]

If you had say, in new york city, or anywhere in the world. Ten thousands cases of people throwing stones at lethal speeds at people with machine guns, you would find a similar, if not higher level of those people being killed.

[Plato & Socrates]

ToonArmyIsComing wrote: Venom wrote: Quote: Or perhaps shooting with live bullets at kids throwing stones is not a good idea. Perhaps other methods such as using tear gas or some other non lethal and which does not cause permanent bodily damage is a good idea.
I guess rocks do not case permanent bodily damage? Also as stated before non lethal means can also result in death. Rubber bullets = people still die. Tear Gas, they just wear a simple gas mask. Also these are kids? Two were 16 and one was 20. They are old enough to know what they are doing and old enough to know the IDF has killed people that have thrown rocks in the past. Do you not have a problem with these 3 assaulting the IDF soldiers? Also why should the IDF have to carry tear gas all over the place, they just recently were in a war in Lebanon and had soldiers kidnapped in Palestine as well.

The choices are so many. Let's see: how about a taser gun, which does not kill?

It's absolutely telling, who supports the IDF line and who does'nt. Lunatic goes into shopping Hall blows himself up, kills civilians and the Pro-Palestinians and Pro-Israeli's will say it is a horrible crime and must be condemned.
IDF blasts/shoots to death some kids throwing rocks at a Jeep, armored as standard, whilst the occupants are inside. The death is legitimate and completely justifiable. Why do people equate the IDF presence with the police?

What is the role of the IDF in the occupied areas? Almost 40 years of occupation, and what is there role? Even when the IDF have pulled out of the occupied territory's. The still administer the area from Tel-Aviv. Where the Palestinians have no say. The IDF is a instrument of the minority Jews, to oppress there majority neighbours in there own lands. This latest IDF killing like 1000s of others, cannot be defended as security.

[Nico]

programmusic wrote: A. The people in this topic are assuming he was intentionally killed, which is unlikely

B. if the perpetrator is caught, which is likely, he will go to jail.

It would be a virtual precedent. It is highly unusual for IDF members to go to jail for offences such as this. Not unheard of, just rare. I can find some much more serious cases that went out the courtroom door.

[Venom]

Quote: I sometimes wish that to become a leader of a country, you have to have seen active duty first. Then politicans can understand the job they give their troops to do
Brilliant... so now you must get point blank and shock them. Yes some do shoot out, however they are not very accurate, nor do they shoot out at a high FPS. So lets see with your idea you have to get close to shock them, it's not like Palestinians have a tendancy to blow themselves up or anything... oh wait they do.

Quote: It's absolutely telling, who supports the IDF line and who does'nt. Lunatic goes into shopping Hall blows himself up, kills civilians and the Pro-Palestinians and Pro-Israeli's will say it is a horrible crime and must be condemned.
Well you forgot the part will the Pro-Palestinians blame the cause of this man's crime on Israel.

Quote: IDF blasts/shoots to death some kids throwing rocks at a Jeep, armored as standard, whilst the occupants are inside. The death is legitimate and completely justifiable. Why do people equate the IDF presence with the police?

Watch a TV you can see Soldiers outside of their vehicles getting pelted with rocks all the time (nevermind the fact for them to shoot these 3 they had to be outside their armoured vehicle....). Also again the ages were 16,16 and 20... they didn't know what they were doing?

Quote: What is the role of the IDF in the occupied areas? Almost 40 years of occupation, and what is there role?
Their role is to attempt to head off terrorist attacks against Israel.

Quote: The IDF is a instrument of the minority Jews, to oppress there majority neighbours in there own lands
Wait I must be mistaken but history shows the majority of Israel's neighbors trying to team up and kill Jews (the minority). So now that Palestine carries out terrorism as a daily thing Isreal is supposed to ignore that?
What would the UK do if faced with terrorism (oh wait they sent Royal Marine Commando's to assisinate the terrorists...).

Quote: This latest IDF killing like 1000s of others, cannot be defended as security.
It can't? Why not? Because they should have sat on their hands waiting for more soldiers to die and be kidnapped?
So Plato what wars have you supported from the 1900s til today?


Quote: It would be a virtual precedent. It is highly unusual for IDF members to go to jail for offences such as this. Not unheard of, just rare. I can find some much more serious cases that went out the courtroom door.
Well I cannot speak for the IDF ROE but I would imagine it's somewhat like the US' common ROE in a dangerzone. That is if you feel your life is in danger than you are authorized to use deadly force.

[The Newb]

you know isreal does have a history of shooting the throwers of rocks? yet they still do it why?

maybe they do see it as martyrdom, they see it as dieing in combat, or provoking a responce that maybe the militia has a reason to fight back, i do believe it is an intentional act knowing full well they could be injured or killed

[slitedeviance]

Kids with rocks Vs. Soldiers with rifles in an armoured jeep with kevlar helmets....

Yeah, seems fair to me....especially as the kids are armed with those high-tech new slingshots being smuggled in from Iran. Guaranteed to smack through even the toughest Chobham armour...........

I mean it must be terrifying for those soldiers. what with their old outdated automatic assault weapons, poor condition army vehicles and combat support network. Man, I'd really sh!t myself if I came up across a 14 year old with a stone (sorry Slingshot!).

[Plato & Socrates]

slitedeviance wrote: Kids with rocks Vs. Soldiers with rifles in an armoured jeep with kevlar helmets....

Yeah, seems fair to me....especially as the kids are armed with those high-tech new slingshots being smuggled in from Iran. Guaranteed to smack through even the toughest Chobham armour...........

I mean it must be terrifying for those soldiers. what with their old outdated automatic assault weapons, poor condition army vehicles and combat support network. Man, I'd really sh!t myself if I came up across a 14 year old with a stone (sorry Slingshot!).

They don't even deserve a reply. The proportion of kids who use a sling shot to throw stones at the IDF is negligible. Whats the percentage? But they will attempt to portray it that these kid were using such a device, when the article mentions nothing of the type. These spurious assertions must be made, to bolster a already pathetic case, to justify such a callous response.

In plain old English these people who are morally depraved, believe that any child who throws a stone or rock at any occupying army, should expect his or her life to be forfeited, at the discretion of the individual soldier. Not only is this a reasonable response, but a legitimate response as well. Just listening to that make me want to vomit.

[prometeus]

Funny how no one asks: Why aren't these kids in school or doing homework or something that will actually contribute to their society, say to prove to the world that they can raise above militant hatred and indeed can form a productive prosperous society. Maybe then their cries of oppression, occupation, denial etc. would attract the right attention.
Like I asked before what is it exactly that they hope to accomplish by throwing rocks? Where do they get the idea? Who incites them?

[slitedeviance]

prometeus wrote: Funny how no one asks: Why aren't these kids in school or doing homework or something that will actually contribute to their society, say to prove to the world that they can raise above militant hatred and indeed can form a productive prosperous society. Maybe then their cries of oppression, occupation, denial etc. would attract the right attention.

Is the PA is in a position to provide free and effective education to the children in their territoies? Of course not. They can't even afford to pay to have the rubbish collected from the streets. It's no use arguing that they should raise themselves above militancy if the continued stance of the international community puts them in a position where they cannot acheive this.

Quote: Like I asked before what is it exactly that they hope to accomplish by throwing rocks?

Possibly a demonstration of their hatred and desperation to the occupying army?

Quote: Where do they get the idea?
From the decades that this has been going on?

Quote: Who incites them?

Two parties. Israel and their internal organisations pushing the resistance.

[bunny]

logic-rules wrote: Death

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061017/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians_3;_ylt=AvKf3gCip2O4Apy_KpEe41AUvioA;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl


if they are going to die they might as well strap a bomb on themselves and take out some idf


F
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K

T
H
E

I
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F

A country of Child Killers

[prometeus]

slitedeviance wrote: Is the PA is in a position to provide free and effective education to the children in their territories? Of course not. They can't even afford to pay to have the rubbish collected from the streets. It's no use arguing that they should raise themselves above militancy if the continued stance of the international community puts them in a position where they cannot achieve this.
~snip~
Possibly a demonstration of their hatred and desperation to the occupying army?

Maybe the Palestinians should ask for the monies stolen by that low life Arafat, and star something with that. After all billions are not chump change.

If it is no use then what is the answer? Do you really think that if Israel pulled out of the West Bank, the place would turn into a prosperous advances nation? And that hatered will disapear overnight?

[Plato & Socrates]

bunny wrote: logic-rules wrote: Death

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061017/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians_3;_ylt=AvKf3gCip2O4Apy_KpEe41AUvioA;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl


if they are going to die they might as well strap a bomb on themselves and take out some idf


F
U
C
K

I
S
R
A
E
L

A country of Child Killers

Whether I may agree with you or not. For the most parts, this is a civilsed forum. The admins will reprimand you for such an out burst.
At the very minimum put it f**k Israel. New posters from whatever side of the debate is welcomed.

[programmusic]

If you had say, in new york city, or anywhere in the world. A similar number of cases of people throwing stones at people with machine guns, you would find a similar, if not higher level of those people being killed.

[bunny]

Plato & Socrates wrote:
Whether I may agree with you or not. For the most parts, this is a civilsed forum. The admins will reprimand you for such an out burst.
At the very minimum put it f**k Israel. New posters from whatever side of the debate is welcomed.

Thanks - I changed it... aimed more at the IDF anyways!!

[slitedeviance]

programmusic wrote: If you had say, in new york city, or anywhere in the world. Ten thousands cases of people throwing stones at people with machine guns, you would find a similar, if not higher level of those people being killed.

Come on dude, thats not really a good example is it?

[MoscowMatt]

ToonArmyIsComing wrote: Rankor and Pissing wrote: One would conclude... perhaps... that throwing rocks at the IDF would not be a good idea.

Or perhaps shooting with live bullets at kids throwing stones is not a good idea. Perhaps other methods such as using tear gas or some other non lethal and which does not cause permanent bodily damage is a good idea.

Sure tear gas, OK and the Palestinian kids therefore can only throw rubber stones!! :lol:

[smo69]

Quote: is the PA is in a position to provide free and effective education to the children in their territoies? Of course not. They can't even afford to pay to have the rubbish collected from the streets. It's no use arguing that they should raise themselves above militancy if the continued stance of the international community puts them in a position where they cannot acheive this.
I agree. How could you possibly deal with people who are use to eating with one hand and wiping their as$ with the other...

[MoscowMatt]

prometeus wrote: Funny how no one asks: Why aren't these kids in school or doing homework or something that will actually contribute to their society, say to prove to the world that they can raise above militant hatred and indeed can form a productive prosperous society. Maybe then their cries of oppression, occupation, denial etc. would attract the right attention.
Like I asked before what is it exactly that they hope to accomplish by throwing rocks? Where do they get the idea? Who incites them?

:tu: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Yes of course for some it's all harmless fun and the kids then go on to do something productive in their adult life. Or returning to the real world they go on to pick up an AK or RPG!

[programmusic]

slitedeviance wrote: programmusic wrote: If you had say, in new york city, or anywhere in the world. Ten thousands cases of people throwing stones at people with machine guns, you would find a similar, if not higher level of those people being killed.

Come on dude, thats not really a good example is it?

why?

If you had a similar rate of people throwing stones(sometimes at deadly speeds) at people with machine guns(18 to 20 year olds no less). You would have a similar rate of those people being killed.

[slitedeviance]

smo69 wrote: Quote: is the PA is in a position to provide free and effective education to the children in their territoies? Of course not. They can't even afford to pay to have the rubbish collected from the streets. It's no use arguing that they should raise themselves above militancy if the continued stance of the international community puts them in a position where they cannot acheive this.
I agree. How could you possibly deal with people who are use to eating with one hand and wiping their as$ with the other...

The same way I'd expect to deal with arrogant a$$holes from the richest nation in the world who clearly have no concept of what reality is for around 60 - 70% of the worlds population, and eat with the same hand they wipe their a$$ with.

prometeus wrote: why?

If you had a similar rate of people throwing stones(sometimes at deadly speeds) at people with machine guns(18 to 20 year olds no less). You would have a similar rate of those people being killed.

Firstly, can you clarify what "deadly speed" is for a rock? And how is that affected by the presence of Kevlar helmets?

And we're not dealing with a situation where it's random violence between one group with rocks and one group with guns. It's one of the worlds (supposedly) best trained and equipped armed forces against a bunch of kids with rocks.