Political Crossfire Forums

prometeus · Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 9:10 pm Post subject:

unclesamual wrote: The Palestinians certainly have a reason to wipe out Israel. Whether they take that course or sue for peace is up to them.

And therein lies the truth. So you would not be willing to do the dirty work, but neither would you do anything to stop it. You are certainly entitled to that POV. I for one do not share it, as most people on the board here. Sensibility , no, basic human decency would not allow for any nation anywhere, for any reason to be wiped of the map. Especially in the case of the Jews, who also have lived in the area and it was their land. More so, they lived there before Palestinians existed, but that is ancient history as you call it. Never mind that the "interruption' of Jewish habitation was never voluntary.

Are you saying that the Palestinians would want representation in the Israeli government?

It also merits mention your support of the birth of your country at the price of practically exterminating the people who "lived there and owned the land." Yea they had a lot to say in their fate. But that is also ancient history. What would happen if Israel applied the same reasoning. In two hundred years who wold care about the Palestinians?

unclesamual · Joined: 25 Oct 2006 Posts: 43

Quote: Sensibility , no, basic human decency would not allow for any nation anywhere, for any reason to be wiped of the map.

Palestine/Israel would still be there if the Palestinians took over. It may have a different name than "Israel" though. It would be a change of leadership of the country. What happened in Iraq in 2003? Change of leadership. I guess the basic human decency didn't cause the the rest of the world to fight the United States and instead they didn't do "anything to stop it".

Quote: Especially in the case of the Jews

Right, "especially" in the case of the Jews. The issue of Israel has divided East and West, Islam and Christianity (the two largest religions). The conflict rising over that can be WW 3 and 60 million people killed in world war 2 or a 6 million person holocaust can be slight compared to what may occur. The cycle of violence I suppose.

Quote: More so, they lived there before Palestinians existed, but that is ancient history as you call it.

Christians: out of Europe (pagans were there first before Christianity even existed and their eradication was not exactly voluntary).
White people: out of the Americas.
Black people: go back to Africa.
Muslims: go back to Saudi Arabia.

This is truly revolutionary thought. Giving back all land to the decendants of the first inhabitants of an area (whether the connection to the ancestors is the passing down of the religious thought or through bloodline).

Quote: Are you saying that the Palestinians would want representation in the Israeli government?

It would be better for them than things are now. Ahmedinejad suggested this solution.

Quote: "Weapons research is in no way part of Iran's program. Even with regard to the Zionist regime, our path to a solution is elections."

Ahmadinejad seems to be explaining what his calls for the Zionist regime to be effaced actually mean. He says he doesn't want violence against Israel, despite its own acts of enmity against Middle Eastern neighbors. I interpret his statement on Saturday to be an endorsement of the one-state solution, in which a government would be elected that all Palestinians and all Israelis would jointly vote for.

Quote: It also merits mention your support of the birth of your country at the price of practically exterminating the people who "lived there and owned the land." Yea they had a lot to say in their fate. But that is also ancient history. What would happen if Israel applied the same reasoning. In two hundred years who wold care about the Palestinians?

No, that is not ancient history. It however is farther back than what Israel has done to the Palestinians. Note that living survivors of Indians are citizens of the United States. Are the Palestinains citizens? We also give them somewhat regional autonomy if they so wish to live on a reservation. Who questions that what the white settlers did to the Indians was backwards and 17th century racist logic? I am glad you brought up the parallels between what Israel is doing and what white settlers did to the Indians. The difference is that one thing is still occuring and the other is not. We can change the future, not the past.

In 2 million years, not just 200 years, Palestinians should not live under oppression. If Israel is still trying to annex their land, by then...well, the issue would still remain with many people still caring about the Palestinians I would imagine.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 15233 Location: On Earth

superskippy wrote: Quote: Some grand Mufti thought the Nazis would save his people

Your not honestly giving any excuse to the Grand Mufti's enormous crimes are you?

Sorry if I havent yet prepared a broader response to your post but this caught my eye.

Shamir's crimes were equally if not more despicable.

Nico · Joined: 03 Nov 2004 Posts: 9868

superskippy wrote: Quote: Some grand Mufti thought the Nazis would save his people

Your not honestly giving any excuse to the Grand Mufti's enormous crimes are you?

Sorry if I havent yet prepared a broader response to your post but this caught my eye.

I don't excuse crimes Skippy, I rationalise them. This one guy is getting used as the whipping post of Palestinian identity in the 30's and 40s, which is absurd. He was hardly representative.

Shamir was a terrorist who became the leader of a country. I can't excuse him either but I understand he thought he was doing the right thing by his people.

He was however just another terrorist. I can't judge Jews of the 1930's or 40's by detestable people/groups such as him and stern gang/ Irgun either.
If I did I would be taking a leaf from the book of people who would call every Arab a terrorist for electing Hamas, and calling every Israeli who voted for Begin, Shamir, Sharon terrorists like these people, by default.
Equally absurd to my mind.

bunny · Joined: 14 Oct 2006 Posts: 584

Nico wrote: superskippy wrote: Quote: Some grand Mufti thought the Nazis would save his people

Your not honestly giving any excuse to the Grand Mufti's enormous crimes are you?

Sorry if I havent yet prepared a broader response to your post but this caught my eye.

I don't excuse crimes Skippy, I rationalise them. This one guy is getting used as the whipping post of Palestinian identity in the 30's and 40s, which is absurd. He was hardly representative.

Shamir was a terrorist who became the leader of a country. I can't excuse him either but I understand he thought he was doing the right thing by his people.

He was however just another terrorist. I can't judge Jews of the 1930's or 40's by detestable people/groups such as him and stern gang/ Irgun either.
If I did I would be taking a leaf from the book of people who would call every Arab a terrorist for electing Hamas, and calling every Israeli who voted for Begin, Shamir, Sharon terrorists like these people, by default.
Equally absurd to my mind.

+1

Picaro · Joined: 14 Jan 2006 Posts: 57

smo69 wrote: Where's the common sense? Stones and bullets are two different things.

Not really; both can kill or maim you easily. Want to try getting stoned by 30 or 40 kids, and see how it works? They aren't throwing pebbles. If you survive, you can come back and tell us all how 'harmless' it was, if or when you get out the hospital and intensive therapy, that is ...

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 7442 Location: Petah Tikva

Nico but what honest rationalization can you give for the Grand Mufti's enormous crimes relating to the Holocaust, the SS, and attempted chemical attacks? As for characterizing him with a Palestinian identity of the time the man is considered a hero by many Palestinian groups and was an idol of a one Yasser Arafat I think it is more than fair to consider him at least a major figure in the Palestinian identity and view.

As for Shamir I view his actions more along the lines of the Irish of the 1920's. He wasnt a rabid bomber of civilians he and his group struck very carefully at British targets. For example Lord Moyne was killed for his perceived actions which led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Jews by refusing the "Blood for Trucks" deal as well as preventing millions of Jews from escaping Europe to Palestine in 1942. Do I think he deserved to die for it? No, but would I have hated the man just as much?

slitedeviance · Joined: 02 Sep 2006 Posts: 1507

Picaro wrote: Not really; both can kill or maim you easily. Want to try getting stoned by 30 or 40 kids, and see how it works? They aren't throwing pebbles. If you survive, you can come back and tell us all how 'harmless' it was, if or when you get out the hospital and intensive therapy, that is ...

Figures for IDF deaths caused by kids throwing stones?

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 7442 Location: Petah Tikva

I dont beleive there is one, but having been with a squad assailed by rioters with stones I know they can gash you up pretty good. I didnt get anything more than some cuts but some people had some pretty big gashes across their heads, and several people have died. Is it a major threat to our security? Of course not. But is it potentially dangerous for the soldiers being pelted? Yes. Does it always warrent returning fire? In most cases probably not most of the time a burst of warning fire will do, but sometimes it will go to far. And people are people if I'm pelting you with stones and so are 7 of my friends you might consider responding as chunks of rock fly at your head. In the case that was displayed here and have seen no further information I would say they were probably not in the right in firing upon the two people who were throwing the rocks, I cant find any real reason in fact it would seem they were already in their jeep when they returned fire.

bunny · Joined: 14 Oct 2006 Posts: 584

I can't be bothered to read all the post in this thread.. are there still people in here who support shooting rock throwing children & teens?

The Newb · Joined: 06 Oct 2006 Posts: 2665

The Newb wrote: you know isreal does have a history of shooting the throwers of rocks? yet they still do it why?

maybe they do see it as martyrdom, they see it as dieing in combat, or provoking a responce that maybe the militia has a reason to fight back, i do believe it is an intentional act knowing full well they could be injured or killed

this still stands

unclesamual · Joined: 25 Oct 2006 Posts: 43

If I may, can I put out a hypothetical situation.

this is the scene (the photo isn't hypothetical): http://www.pitt.edu/AFShome/s/o/sorc/public/html/pittsjp/enfanttank.gif

The kid is throwing rocks. You are in control of the tank. Do you:

a.)use the 120 mm smoothbore cannon and fire on him
b.)use the .50 BMG coaxial machine gun.
c.)use the 1500 horsepower engine able of accelerating the tank to 60 km/h, 65 tonne weight of the tank and the laminated steel/nickel composite armour to run him down.

afterall, the little dude is going to become an extremist later on anyway.

If the Israeli troops can not survive people hurling rocks (possibly with the arm of a 7-12 year old child), I hate to see their survival rate against trained, equiped soldiers.

Quote: you know isreal does have a history of shooting the throwers of rocks? yet they still do it why?

maybe they do see it as martyrdom, they see it as dieing in combat, or provoking a responce that maybe the militia has a reason to fight back, i do believe it is an intentional act knowing full well they could be injured or killed

Quote: this still stands

Maybe the kid didn't pay much attention in their history class. Maybe the kid's mom was killed by some action of the IDF. Maybe the kids source of income, their family's farm of trees, was destroyed and uprooted by an Israeli bulldozer. Maybe their house was bombed by an f-16. Maybe the kid is just suicidal. Maybe he took the story of David and Goliath too seriously. All are possible I suppose.

The Newb · Joined: 06 Oct 2006 Posts: 2665

right but momma and daddy / elders are not teaching him to not throw rocks?

and i doubt that that kid was killed by the tank, most of the killings are done because an isreali soldier was injured by said rock thrower

superskippy wrote: I dont beleive there is one, but having been with a squad assailed by rioters with stones I know they can gash you up pretty good. I didnt get anything more than some cuts but some people had some pretty big gashes across their heads, and several people have died. Is it a major threat to our security? Of course not. But is it potentially dangerous for the soldiers being pelted? Yes. Does it always warrent returning fire? In most cases probably not most of the time a burst of warning fire will do, but sometimes it will go to far. And people are people if I'm pelting you with stones and so are 7 of my friends you might consider responding as chunks of rock fly at your head. In the case that was displayed here and have seen no further information I would say they were probably not in the right in firing upon the two people who were throwing the rocks, I cant find any real reason in fact it would seem they were already in their jeep when they returned fire.

unclesamual · Joined: 25 Oct 2006 Posts: 43

Quote: Questions over the photos' authenticity have been put to rest by authorities that were present during the incident, which occurred on July 17 near the northern border. The mostly local children had been brought to see the shells by their parents. Although it remains unclear who encouraged them to write the messages, their colorful scribbles, including a Star of David, hearts, and "From Israel, with Love," have appeared in dozens of blogs, or on-line journals, and on-line photo hosting sites.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull&cid=1153291980307

Quote: right but momma and daddy / elders are not teaching him to not throw rocks?

It seems the Israelis have their own problems of bringing up their children in a an atmosphere encouraging of total pacifism also. Note Jerusalem Post article above.

Quote: And i doubt that that kid was killed by the tank

You only doubt that he was killed? So, there is the possibility in your mind that Israeli soldiers would go to that brutality.

The Newb · Joined: 06 Oct 2006 Posts: 2665

unclesamual wrote: Quote: Questions over the photos' authenticity have been put to rest by authorities that were present during the incident, which occurred on July 17 near the northern border. The mostly local children had been brought to see the shells by their parents. Although it remains unclear who encouraged them to write the messages, their colorful scribbles, including a Star of David, hearts, and "From Israel, with Love," have appeared in dozens of blogs, or on-line journals, and on-line photo hosting sites.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull&cid=1153291980307

Quote: right but momma and daddy / elders are not teaching him to not throw rocks?

It seems the Israelis have their own problems of bringing up their children in a an atmosphere encouraging of total pacifism also. Note Jerusalem Post article above.

Quote: And i doubt that that kid was killed by the tank

You only doubt that he was killed? So, there is the possibility in your mind that Israeli soldiers would go to that brutality.

Quote: It seems the Israelis have their own problems of bringing up their children in a an atmosphere encouraging of total pacifism also. Note Jerusalem Post article above.

you missed my point i know about isreal i was making a point on why this is being blown way out of proportion

Quote: You only doubt that he was killed? So, there is the possibility in your mind that Israeli soldiers would go to that brutality

that would not be the idea either i said i doubt it because i do not have facts on the childs death, however i do believe that if a tank killed the poor child it would have either been by accident or well warranted

unclesamual · Joined: 25 Oct 2006 Posts: 43

Quote: that would not be the idea either i said i doubt it because i do not have facts on the childs death, however i do believe that if a tank killed the poor child it would have either been by accident or well warranted

I think you have too high of an opinion of IDF soldiers and ideas of the infallability and moral superiority of them. Do you agree with Ehud Olmert that the IDF is the most moral military in the world?

Quote:
Hurndall was hit in the forehead by a high-velocity bullet fired by an Israeli soldier as he worked as a peace activist in the Gaza Strip 20 months ago.
........
Disquiet is mounting among British government officials whose repeated requests for evidence that could determine if Hurndall was shot deliberately have been rejected. The missing documents, understood to include an Israeli military police inquiry, could mean a manslaughter charge for the man who shot Hurndall being upgraded to murder.
.......
Senior officers, including the brigadier in command of the southern region of the Gaza Strip, are now preparing to face three weeks' cross-examination. Sergeant Wahid Taysir, the sniper who killed Hurndall, has already said a policy of shooting at unarmed civilians existed at the time.
.......
As Hurndall wandered among the ruins of Rafah on the day he died, foremost on his mind was Rachel Corrie, a 23-year-old American activist who had been crushed to death by an Israeli armoured bulldozer a month earlier. He wanted to photograph the bulldozer, which had returned for the first time since her death.
......
In his original testimony, Taysir claimed he had shot at a man in military fatigues who was firing at the soldiers with a pistol, in the no-go security zone. Later evidence, however, challenged his version. Photos clearly show Hurndall wearing a bright orange jacket denoting he was a foreigner; the graffiti that can be seen behind him is 100m from the secure zone.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1401813,00.html

Quote: On the morning of Tuesday, May 18 Asma al-Mughair, 16, and her brother Ahmed, 13, died on the roof of their home in the Tel as Sultan district of Rafah. Each of them was shot in the upper body by an Israeli sniper. The following day thirteen year old Saber Abu Libdeh was killed by a bullet through his heart. He and two of his brothers were also targeted by a sniper as they attempted to fetch drinking water for their family, also in the sealed off neighbourhood of Tel as Sultan. Ruwan Abu Zaid died on Sunday the 23rd of May, her fifth birthday. Ruwan was shot in the neck and the face as she walked hand in hand with her two year old sister 200 meters out of the family’s front gate.
http://www.palestinemonitor.org/nueva_web/infos_materials/in_focus/in_focus23.htm

Quote: On Friday a four-year-old Palestinian boy was shot dead by a soldier - the most recent child victim of the Israeli army. Chris McGreal investigates a shocking series of deaths
http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,1007051,00.html

Quote: The Foreign Office condemned Israel yesterday after a young Palestinian girl was killed in a what her family describe as a hail of bullets in the northern West Bank on Friday.

Akbar Zayed, reported to be eight years old, was with her uncle on her way to a doctor's appointment when the pair drove into an Israeli military operation to seize militants near the town of Jenin.

The Israeli army, after an initial inquiry, said its soldiers called on Akbar's uncle to stop before they opened fire at his car's wheels. But in hospital, where he was recovering from gunshot wounds to his arm and leg, Kamal Zayed gave a conflicting account of events.

He said that three Israeli soldiers, from an arrest team of more than 30, opened fire on his car before he had the chance to respond to their shouted orders. "The first bullet hit my niece. She got a bullet in the head from the very beginning," he said.

Quote: Palestinian doctors said the woman was shot by an Israeli sniper while she was standing outside her home in southern Gaza. The IDF said troops in the area identified two gunmen east approaching the force east of Khan Yunis and opened fire, hitting both of them, but was not aware of a woman being hit.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/773817.html

Quote: In a rare move, the Israeli army has launched a formal investigation into the death of a Palestinian shepherdess, 25-year-old Nayfa Abu Imsa'id, according to Haaretz. Nayfa was killed by Israeli sniper fire as she was herding her flock with her friend last month, a story I reported for al-Jazeera, which, as usual, got very little press at the time.
http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/laila_elhaddad/2006/03/post_14.html

There was one incident that I remember that I especially wanted to find. Can't find it as of now. Maybe later.