Political Crossfire Forums

[programmusic]

I think bunny used to post here under a different alias.

[Tepic]

agentkgb wrote: I'm going to go out of a limb here and suggest that this thread is slightly off topic.
Nothing wrong with going out on a limb, so long as you don't try to saw through it while you're there...

[MoscowMatt]

Venom wrote: Quote: Civilised countries don't murder stone throwers.
Self defense is murder? A civilized country does not allow itself to be bullied by people using violence as their means of acheiving their goal.

Quote: Tear gas, water canon both do the job very well
Both require special gear and special training. Also they are not the most practical things to bring to a war zone on small patrols.

Quote: In Greece the anarchists go on a rampage probably once a year and they trash pretty much everything on their route. The Greek police get into their armoured vehicles and make them cry like they've never cried before with tear gas
Tear gas isn't that bad 1st off. 2nd off if they make them cry so bad why do they do it every year as you've stated? Clearly they have learned nothing and it has stopped nothing.

Quote: After the offenders are knocked into next week, they are then arrested.

Problem solved.
Problem solved? Apparently you missed the part in your own post where the problem happens every year....

Quote: It is shocking how much Israeli apologists defend their forces' murder of children.

And they throw their arms skyward while screaming "why" when Palestinians retaliate
Shooting back is not murder. It's also not retailiation when they are the ones starting it. So you clearly find the Palestinian retailiation acceptable (otherwise known as "terrorism").

Quote: This thread is about the murders of children by the IDF for throwing rocks.
Again self defense is murder? A child is not age 16-20....



Bunny
Quote: Where? When?

In Iraq...? That's brutal & sad as hell, but has nothing to do with the topic at hand
Um it's terrorism and yes it has to do with the topic at hand. Terrorist attacks are common in the ME, especially in Israel.
Quote: If you're talking about Israel, well, it's been quite a while since there's been a suicide attack & that has nothing to do with children throwing rocks & getting killed for it!
Has it been quite a while since there has been a terrorist attack on Israel? No. There is constant attacks on the IDF and the Israeli people. It's a warzone there.
So yes it has everything to do with the death of these "children" whom were assaulting the IDF.... (once again a 20 year old is a child, a 16 year old is a child?)

Nico
Quote: When tanks drive through your streets and you don't exist on your own soil in the eyes of the world, no one need encourage you to throw rocks at the foreigners who control every practical aspect of your 'life'
We'll maybe their parents shouldn't elect terrorists to their government and also launch large terrorist attacks during the peace talks? If the Palestinains were so upset over this foreign control they would have actually talked when they were at the peace tables rather then go to their all to familiar use of terrorism.

Quote: Remember when the Chinese ran a barbed wire fence around your town, took away your right of travel, patrolled your streets, killed kids who went near their wire? Remember how you wrote to your senator, but then remembered he didn't exist because legally neither do you, even though you were born just down the road and you can trace your line back a thousand years in one village? Wait, that's someone else's form of reality, and we are getting pissed at them for throwing rocks at the people with the thumb on them, in their own streets.

Do you recall when your leadership was talking to the Chinese about a peace agreement and then your uncle had your cousin go blow himself up in a chinese cafe? Remember how these government leaders that don't legally exist are actually met with at the world's most powerful nation's White House? Recall how the Chinese have pulled back and only met with more violence?

Quote: There is a foreign army controlling a people in their own neighborhoods. In what world does peace spring from that?
What world does a foreign military not protect it's nation when it's people are attacked constantly for no other reason than they picked the "wrong" religion, and the world created their country there?


Hey Plato, figure out what wars you have supported yet?

:tu: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Excellent post. Nice to see I'm not alone in the 'real' world!! :tu:

[MoscowMatt]

Plato & Socrates wrote: Moscowmatt wrote: Oh deary me. So you've been to Uganda big deal. That somehow makes you more qualified on a subject than anyone else. Hey I've lived in the Middle East does that mean as a result of that I know more about it than you and my opinion is always right over yours?! By your logic erm yes!!!

Utter rubbish, do you need a reminder of what you said concerning African child soldiers? "If Palestinian children are going to embark on adult acts i.e violence strapping bombs to themselves (and this HAS happened) then they should expect an adult response. Like I say how would you deal with the child soldiers in Africa murdering their way through the local population? 'Oh we can't kill them, their kids"

Considering we are talking about the callous actions of the IDF, shooting to death some Palestinian stone throwers. I see why you went off on some nonsensical tangent, regarding African child soldiers. Nobody is debating whether a Palestinian child has not previously strapped a bomb to themselves, and in these unfortunate incidences, show me an example on this forum where a pro-Palestinian has condemned the IDF for taking that childes life, under those circumstances? Secondly a child soldier is just that a soldier of a young age, with fire arm and munitions. Please don't equate child soldier with fire arm to Palestinian child stone thrower = Both should be engaged with deadly force.

You seem to be missing the point. Justifying the death of a Palestinian child strapped with explosives, does'nt evolve to your next warped conclusion, to the justifiable infanticide of child rock throwers. This seems to be the logic you are offering.

Quote: With regards to shooting protesters at G8 summits. That's a whole different scenario. Logic, remember how important that is now! Dictates that in it's context that is all it is a protest.These people will not go on to murder those at the G8 or blow themselves up. Palestine is a very different kettle of fish. But if you must make ridiculous analogies does that then mean I can throw stones at the police if I don't want them to be there? By YOUR logic I have the right to do that!!!!

This shows your views are even more disturbing than I thought. The more somebody attempts to justify the unjustifiable with a intellectual argument. The quicker the stance begins to disintegrate. Context? O.K lets travel down your line of reasoning. You some how surmise that protesters in your own words "will not go on to murder those at the G8 or blow themselves up"

What am I to make of your sentence? Are you saying that protesters throwing rocks or other devices, don't need to be shot dead, because in the future they wont kill future members of G8 or blow themselves up. But Palestinian stone throwers invariably in older age, progress to becoming murders and suicide bombers? So killing these little blighters now is pre-emptive? So it has very Little to do for you with the stone throwing itself, but who's throwing the stones? The streets of London, a stone thrown and no action to kill should be taken. But a stone thrown in Palestine = death by bullet? :lol: Oh pleaase. :roll:

Quote: It's always poor Palestinians with you isn't it. Well you know what I agreed, up until the point when they elected a TERRORIST organisation to govern their country. One that is the main barricade between the peace that their own president wants!!

So the sins of the father, is bought upon the child for you is it? :roll: The last time I looked, no child in Palestine had the vote. Hamas has 2 wings. Military and political. The people of Palestine voted for the political wing, because Fatah was corrupt and did'nt enhance the lives of the ordinary Palestinian.

Quote: The cycle of violence can only end when Palestine renounces terrorism, people like you just don't get what will happen if we let the terrorists win!

How about when Israel pulls out of the occupied territory's and stops trying to rule it whilst a minority in the land?
Maybe the cycle of violence might end then?

If you had actually bothered to read the original news article posted you will see the stone throwers were 16 and 20 years old!! Hardly children!! Also as I have already stated if you are a person who believes that these people ONLY throw stones then you are very naive!!

You really think the cycle of violence would end if Israel moved out of the occupied territories???:rotf: You and I both know full well that the violence from the Palestinians will never stop until Israel is wiped out. Pulling out of these territories will just inspire these peole to that goal. i.e the jobs half done lets keep going!

With your analogy about stone throwers in Palestine and say London, you fail to consider all parameters regarding the scenario. You generalised far to much and just focused on the act of throwing a stone without analysing the politics and reasoning behind it. In all you make a very weak argument on that one.

Show my the IDF gunning down 6 year olds throwing stones and then I'd be appalled. But most of these 'children' are in their teens and should really know better.

If the IDF said under no circumstances shoot anyone throwing stones, how long do you think it would be before one of these 16 year old kids threw stones, got up nice and close because he knows he won't be shot, and then pulls out a grenade? You really think the militants would not think of something like that?

I suggest you put yourself in the place of the soldier and ask how would you react, knowing that just one wrong choice could cost you and maybe some of your men their lives? It's easy for you and others to sit behind their computers and pick apart the actions of the IDF with the advantage of hindsight and the ability to spend all day thinking about it. The front line soldier doesn't have that luxury. It's about time people realised that.

[agentkgb]

MoscowMatt wrote: Show my the IDF gunning down 6 year olds throwing stones and then I'd be appalled. But most of these 'children' are in their teens and should really know better.
I haven't found an article about a six-year-old killed while throwing stones, but there is this.

[The Newb]

programmusic wrote: I think bunny used to post here under a different alias.

i think bunny is a lot like lil kimmy

so ronrey! :wink:

[The Comrade]

programmusic wrote: I think bunny used to post here under a different alias.


i think you would be right.

[Nico]

Venom wrote: Quote: Civilised countries don't murder stone throwers.
Self defense is murder? A civilized country does not allow itself to be bullied by people using violence as their means of acheiving their goal.


bullied? Are you serious?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6047764.stm


Quote:
Nico wrote: When tanks drive through your streets and you don't exist on your own soil in the eyes of the world, no one need encourage you to throw rocks at the foreigners who control every practical aspect of your 'life'
We'll maybe their parents shouldn't elect terrorists to their government and also launch large terrorist attacks during the peace talks? If the Palestinains were so upset over this foreign control they would have actually talked when they were at the peace tables rather then go to their all to familiar use of terrorism.




That's what I'd call a self-constructed time line. I also wonder how the person, that would be you, who said: " A civilized country does not allow itself to be bullied by people using violence as their means of acheiving their goal." also by some twist of reason, sees the driving of tanks, shooting of schoolkids at their desks, walking past wire as presumably reasonable. God forbid that this excuse was used to justify precisely the same actions being rained down on the Israelis as a population. Can you for an instant imagine Palestinians driving tanks through Tel-aviv as a reasonable response to say; an Israeli helicopter gunship killing some civilians, be it 'justified or otherwise."
You apply a double standard to the people in question. Why not just get it over with and say "Anything we do is justified because I don't see them as the same people as us."


Quote:
Do you recall when your leadership was talking to the Chinese about a peace agreement and then your uncle had your cousin go blow himself up in a chinese cafe? Remember how these government leaders that don't legally exist are actually met with at the world's most powerful nation's White House? Recall how the Chinese have pulled back and only met with more violence?



Remember how it was in your own villiage, on your own soil. Remember how it is other people's peace processes that dictate what you will have or be, in your own land. All you have to do is sign away your past. Resistance to occupation is a human imperative. Would that I wrung my hands that the oppressed fight back, and I should discount myself from the human race. Is it good that someone who has only known oppression at the hands of another, kill civilians, die in the process? No. Is it understandable? Absolutely. Is the answer a tighter grip on the oppressed? Maybe in a world I want no part of, and that my elders fought and died to eliminate.






Quote:

Quote: There is a foreign army controlling a people in their own neighborhoods. In what world does peace spring from that?
What world does a foreign military not protect it's nation when it's people are attacked constantly for no other reason than they picked the "wrong" religion, and the world created their country there?



If you think this is about religion, you are entirely misinformed. This is the displacement of one people by another and the control of the remainder by force, intimidation, removal of their identity.

The Palestinian people are a mixture of secular/ Muslim and christian. It is only recently that the rise of islamist influence has has begun to be part of a religious polarisation. In fact it was israel among others who funded the rise of hamas as a group to offset the secular PLO.
The idea of a religious root to the palestinian resistance, rather than a demographic one, is one of the great red herrings of our time, and is convenient to now tag on with the current conflicts elsewhere. It is entirely disingenuous in the larger historical situation in palestine/Israel.




Quite simply I see your position as one of tacit approval of the subjegation of another people on their own soil. The Palestinians need to roll over, be pacified and take whatever Israel gives them [or doesn't], right? A sad day for humanity that people should think this way.

[emerald]

Nico wrote: Venom wrote: Quote: Civilised countries don't murder stone throwers.
Self defense is murder? A civilized country does not allow itself to be bullied by people using violence as their means of acheiving their goal.


bullied? Are you serious?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6047764.stm


Quote:
Nico wrote: When tanks drive through your streets and you don't exist on your own soil in the eyes of the world, no one need encourage you to throw rocks at the foreigners who control every practical aspect of your 'life'
We'll maybe their parents shouldn't elect terrorists to their government and also launch large terrorist attacks during the peace talks? If the Palestinains were so upset over this foreign control they would have actually talked when they were at the peace tables rather then go to their all to familiar use of terrorism.




That's what I'd call a self-constructed time line. I also wonder how the person, that would be you, who said: " A civilized country does not allow itself to be bullied by people using violence as their means of acheiving their goal." also by some twist of reason, sees the driving of tanks, shooting of schoolkids at their desks, walking past wire as presumably reasonable. God forbid that this excuse was used to justify precisely the same actions being rained down on the Israelis as a population. Can you for an instant imagine Palestinians driving tanks through Tel-aviv as a reasonable response to say; an Israeli helicopter gunship killing some civilians, be it 'justified or otherwise."
You apply a double standard to the people in question. Why not just get it over with and say "Anything we do is justified because I don't see them as the same people as us."


Quote:
Do you recall when your leadership was talking to the Chinese about a peace agreement and then your uncle had your cousin go blow himself up in a chinese cafe? Remember how these government leaders that don't legally exist are actually met with at the world's most powerful nation's White House? Recall how the Chinese have pulled back and only met with more violence?



Remember how it was in your own villiage, on your own soil. Remember how it is other people's peace processes that dictate what you will have or be, in your own land. All you have to do is sign away your past. Resistance to occupation is a human imperative. Would that I wrung my hands that the oppressed fight back, and I should discount myself from the human race. Is it good that someone who has only known oppression at the hands of another, kill civilians, die in the process? No. Is it understandable? Absolutely. Is the answer a tighter grip on the oppressed? Maybe in a world I want no part of, and that my elders fought and died to eliminate.






Quote:

Quote: There is a foreign army controlling a people in their own neighborhoods. In what world does peace spring from that?
What world does a foreign military not protect it's nation when it's people are attacked constantly for no other reason than they picked the "wrong" religion, and the world created their country there?



If you think this is about religion, you are entirely misinformed. This is the displacement of one people by another and the control of the remainder by force, intimidation, removal of their identity.

The Palestinian people are a mixture of secular/ Muslim and christian. It is only recently that the rise of islamist influence has has begun to be part of a religious polarisation. In fact it was israel among others who funded the rise of hamas as a group to offset the secular PLO.
The idea of a religious root to the palestinian resistance, rather than a demographic one, is one of the great red herrings of our time, and is convenient to now tag on with the current conflicts elsewhere. It is entirely disingenuous in the larger historical situation in palestine/Israel.




Quite simply I see your position as one of tacit approval of the subjegation of another people on their own soil. The Palestinians need to roll over, be pacified and take whatever Israel gives them [or doesn't], right? A sad day for humanity that people should think this way.

:clap:

[Venom]

Quote: bullied? Are you serious?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6047764.stm
Yes I am serious. :)
Now as for your article yes it s*cks for the fishermen that is without a doubt. However why are they in this situation? Have their fellow countrymen of Palestine not used every possible avenue of approach to attack Israel? Yes they have. The USS Cole is a prime example of why something as simple as a little boat is a threat.

Quote: A civilized country does not allow itself to be bullied by people using violence as their means of acheiving their goal." also by some twist of reason, sees the driving of tanks, shooting of schoolkids at their desks, walking past wire as presumably reasonable
Well if you take a look at history at the Jewish State of Israel being attacked by every Arab nation around them, being the target of hundreds of terrorist attacks coming from Palestine. Then it becomes self defense. Now add into the fact that Israel has negotiated time and time again, given land back and only been met with more terrorism it shows it's not bullying but protection. Israel is trying to keep itself alive, Palestine is trying to kill them off. If Israel were to pullout of everyplace an stay within it's borders Palestine would claim Israel is "stolen" land and continue to attack them.

Quote: Can you for an instant imagine Palestinians driving tanks through Tel-aviv as a reasonable response to say; an Israeli helicopter gunship killing some civilians, be it 'justified or otherwise."
Well Israel's Arabs neighbors have attempted this but been defeated in the past. Now if Israel had a bunch of suicide bombers attacking Palestinian cafes for no apparent reason, killing school buses full of children with a suicide attack, and carrying out all sorts of other terrorist attacks then I would find it acceptable for Palestine to attempt to put a buffer zone of their "military" between them and Israel. However this is not the case.
Also a problem with your scenario is that if the Palestinians had tanks to drive into Israel they would using more convential warfare and not relying on terrorist tactics, nevermind the fact that the Israeli choppers are used to go after terrorist targets in retailation for attacks against them.

Quote: You apply a double standard to the people in question
No I don't. I apply the view of whats going on over there. Israel is simply trying to create a buffer zone in an attempt to keep terrorist attacks to a minimum. You could make the arguement that if they pulled out that Israel would see less terrorist attacks, but an easy counter to that is the fact that the Palestinians see all the land that Israel resides on as "stolen" land so their attitude would not change.

If the situation was reversed I would side with Palestine as they were being attacked by the Jewish suicide bombers and fighting constant aggression, but they are not. They are not, Palestine is simply a victim of it's own actions which put itself in a bad position.

Quote: Remember how it was in your own villiage, on your own soil Well the US embassys across the globe come under attack by Islamic terrorists (remember an embassy IS US soil) and I've yet to see an American run out into the market to blow himself up in retailation.

Quote: Remember how it is other people's peace processes that dictate what you will have or be, in your own land
Untrue, it's a peace processes pushed for by a 3rd party.

Quote: Resistance to occupation is a human imperative
Resistance is normal, I'm not debating that. What Im debating that when you get a chance to end the occupation you start a large amount of fighting, which includes tactics that are not normal to being a human (blowing yourself up, etc). It's not a normal human thought to almost have what you want and then intentionally stop it from happening while occupied.
Thats like the French talking to the Germans about leaving France, and right before they sign a deal the French resistance runs into a bunch of German cafes blowing themselves up. It's an idiotic move if you truly wanted peace.

Quote: Is it good that someone who has only known oppression at the hands of another, kill civilians, die in the process? No. Is it understandable? Absolutely
So by the same token is it not understandable to just kill any Muslim I come across because what I have really only got from that religion is their death and destruction of my country? I'd say no. I wouldn't find it understandable either. Saying that sucide bombings and other terrorist attacks are understandable is rediculous. That IS giving acceptance to those acts, because you understand them.
Ask yourself what would it take for you specifically to strap explosives to your chest, jump on a bus and blow it up when it's full of people you don't know and they certainly aren't a military target?
I couldn't do it but I could sure pull the trigger on someone whom was attempting that.

Quote: Is the answer a tighter grip on the oppressed? Maybe in a world I want no part of, and that my elders fought and died to eliminate.
A tighter grip? Palestine had a chance to loosen it in a move to eliminate the oppresion and they pissed on the chance. So their actions would state to me that they really have no desire to take part in a peace plan, their desire is to wipe out Israel.

Quote: If you think this is about religion, you are entirely misinformed
So if Israel was a nation of Arab Muslims it would be a problem? It appears the problem is the Jews own the lands of Israel to me... it's certainly want Islamic extremists preach throughout the world.

Quote: This is the displacement of one people by another and the control of the remainder by force, intimidation, removal of their identity
IF they wanted to force their removal of identity they could wipe them out, they could ignore going to peace talks time and time again and they could also refuse to ever pull back from areas (which they have). Also they apparently haven't been very succesful in being such a bully as they could easy keep people off forums like these that are from Palestine, but they don't do anything about it no matter what these people say.

Quote: The Palestinian people are a mixture of secular/ Muslim and christian. It is only recently that the rise of islamist influence has has begun to be part of a religious polarisation
The vast majority of Palestine is Muslim. The rise of radical Islam dates back prior to the 1970s.

Quote: In fact it was israel among others who funded the rise of hamas as a group to offset the secular PLO.

That may be the case, however Israel pushing to get Hamas in power of the PLO would be a choosing the lesser of two evils at the time.

Quote: The idea of a religious root to the palestinian resistance, rather than a demographic one, is one of the great red herrings of our time, and is convenient to now tag on with the current conflicts elsewhere. It is entirely disingenuous in the larger historical situation in palestine/Israel.

This idea that this is not about a hijacked religion's war on everyone else is like putting your head in the sand. One simply needs to go to YouTube to watch a video of a child whom has been taught to kill "The Jews" to wipe out Israel. If it was about land the Palestinians could have done a million things, one espically being going through with the peace talks, however they didn't because they want the Jewish State of Israel gone.

Quote: Quite simply I see your position as one of tacit approval of the subjegation of another people on their own soil. The Palestinians need to roll over, be pacified and take whatever Israel gives them [or doesn't], right? A sad day for humanity that people should think this way
An accurate depiction of my view would be for Israel to not fold to terrorist tactics as it only bolsters those that use those tactics and to attempt to protect their people. If Palestine wants to get their "stolen" land back they could actually take part in peace talks, stop kidnapping and forcing people to convert to Islam, and give Israel a good reason to withdraw.

Now I do believe it's a sad day when people are willing to bend and accept terrorist tactics. Are you not against the US intervention in Iraq?

[emerald]

Quote: Well the US embassys across the globe come under attack by Islamic terrorists (remember an embassy IS US soil) and I've yet to see an American run out into the market to blow himself up in retailation.

technically US embassies are in someone elses soil.the building maybe american owned but the land it is on is not(when it is outside the US ofcourse)


Quote: Resistance is normal, I'm not debating that. What Im debating that when you get a chance to end the occupation you start a large amount of fighting, which includes tactics that are not normal to being a human (blowing yourself up, etc). It's not a normal human thought to almost have what you want and then intentionally stop it from happening while occupied.

in reality the occupation will never end, even with peace talks, because for occupation to truly end then the state of israel would not exist, and this is ofcourse not going to happen, so in fact what you have is peace talks for solutions to a problem not the end of occupation.

Quote:
So by the same token is it not understandable to just kill any Muslim I come across because what I have really only got from that religion is their death and destruction of my country? I'd say no. I wouldn't find it understandable either. Saying that sucide bombings and other terrorist attacks are understandable is rediculous. That IS giving acceptance to those acts, because you understand them.

that is completely different, and i'm sure you yourself are aware that some idiots have taken it upon themselves in the civilized west to randomly attack muslims after sept 11th. nonetheless, palestine and israel and their conflict is in their own land, a palestinian in america isnt going around strapping hismelf with explosives to kill an israeli in the USA, the conflict in in their country, thats is not the same as comapring muslim extremists attacking USA who come from various countries int he world, and then that means americans can go around killing muslims for their actions.....by world standards if that was the case, considering the amount of wars america has been involved in the majority of the world has a right to go around killing Americans.



Quote: A tighter grip? Palestine had a chance to loosen it in a move to eliminate the oppresion and they pissed on the chance. So their actions would state to me that they really have no desire to take part in a peace plan, their desire is to wipe out Israel.

so lets just ignore them is your answer?

Quote:
Also they apparently haven't been very succesful in being such a bully as they could easy keep people off forums like these that are from Palestine, but they don't do anything about it no matter what these people say

they dont really need to! how many palestinians living in palestine have you seen posting on this political forum?? theyre hardly living in luxury for them to own personal computers.

[superskippy]

Quote: technically US embassies are in someone elses soil.the building maybe american owned but the land it is on is not(when it is outside the US ofcourse)

No embassies are the distinct soil of the nation they reprisent. Any land the embassies are recognized to cover is the soil of that nation unless the embassy status is revoked.

Quote: in reality the occupation will never end, even with peace talks, because for occupation to truly end then the state of israel would not exist,so in fact what you have is peace talks for solutions to a problem not the end of occupation.

If people think along the lines of your own thoughts then not only will the occupation never end but there will never be peace. If your going to claim that the occupation continues so long as Israel still exists than you through every impediment in the way of peace.

Quote: they dont really need to! how many palestinians living in palestine have you seen posting on this political forum?? theyre hardly living in luxury for them to own personal computers.

How many? I've seen and debated with several including Saracen who has reguarly visited the West Bank.

[emerald]

Quote: No embassies are the distinct soil of the nation they reprisent. Any land the embassies are recognized to cover is the soil of that nation unless the embassy status is revoked.

really? i guess we elarn soemthing new everyday, thankyou for the info.

Quote: If people think along the lines of your own thoughts then not only will the occupation never end but there will never be peace. If your going to claim that the occupation continues so long as Israel still exists than you through every impediment in the way of peace.

i dont actually believe there will never be any peace, but i do beleive that this is the very belief of many palestinians, and unless this idea changes then you cant really have peace.

[Venom]

Quote: in reality the occupation will never end, even with peace talks, because for occupation to truly end then the state of israel would not exist, and this is ofcourse not going to happen, so in fact what you have is peace talks for solutions to a problem not the end of occupation
So you subscribe to the belief that the Palestinian violence will not end even if Israel didn't have a single soldier outside of it's borders. Atleast your honest about how the Arab world wishes to wipe Israel off the map.

Quote: that is completely different, and i'm sure you yourself are aware that some idiots have taken it upon themselves in the civilized west to randomly attack muslims after sept 11th
Yes, it's called a hate crime in the United States and it happens to every single grouping of people, race, religion, what click your in, sexuality, etc.


Quote: nonetheless, palestine and israel and their conflict is in their own land, a palestinian in america isnt going around strapping hismelf with explosives to kill an israeli in the USA
I wish it were that simple, but groups such as Hezbollah and Hamas apparently have cells in the United States... Also why would you stap a suicide bomb on your chest in an attempt to find an Israeli in the US when Israel is full of them and you know you'll kill some.

Quote: thats is not the same as comapring muslim extremists attacking USA who come from various countries int he world
How is it not? These Muslim extremists say they attack the US because of our support for Israel.

Quote: that means americans can go around killing muslims for their actions.....by world standards if that was the case, considering the amount of wars america has been involved in the majority of the world has a right to go around killing Americans.
I have no problem with the US going across the globe to kill extremists that are plotting to kill US citizens, our allies, etc...

Also apparently the majority of the Arab world believes that they are right to kill Americans judging by their government's words.

Quote: so lets just ignore them is your answer?
No my answer is to kill them.
If they don't want peace then give them war to the fullest.
Palestine had a chance at stopping the IDF from stomping them and they decided to blow it literally...

Quote: they dont really need to! how many palestinians living in palestine have you seen posting on this political forum?? theyre hardly living in luxury for them to own personal computers.
Saracen claims to be from Palestine and is able to post. I think there was maybe another poster claiming to be from there... however I do not feel sorry that every Palestinian doesn't have the internet.
Also having a personal computer is no major feet these days, I saw many in very poor areas in Iraq....

[quote]i dont actually believe there will never be any peace, but i do beleive that this is the very belief of many palestinians, and unless this idea changes then you cant really have peacequote]

So until the Palestinians stop brainwashing their youth there is no hope.

[slitedeviance]

Venom wrote: Also apparently the majority of the Arab world believes that they are right to kill Americans judging by their government's words.


Whereas the majority of Americans want complete dominance over the world, and are happy to kill anyone to get their way, judging by your governments actions.

I mean, if thats the level we're debating at...

[emerald]

Quote: So you subscribe to the belief that the Palestinian violence will not end even if Israel didn't have a single soldier outside of it's borders. Atleast your honest about how the Arab world wishes to wipe Israel off the map.

:-D i dont deny that a lot of palestinians and many arabs would probably want to wip israel out (as impossible as that is), but i also would believe that israelis as well would probably believe their life would be a hell of a lot better if palestine was wiped off the map as well. (and i've seen some maps which dont even have palestine in, just israel) but you only see that the big bad arabs hate israel and want them gone, but cant believe that israelis would feel the exact same thing towards palestinians and the rest of the arab world.

Quote: I wish it were that simple, but groups such as Hezbollah and Hamas apparently have cells in the United States... Also why would you stap a suicide bomb on your chest in an attempt to find an Israeli in the US when Israel is full of them and you know you'll kill some.

they may have cells there, but those cells are not committing violence or killing anyone over there. it is still a conflict in one place, in one country. hamas isnt going round killing everyone they happen to disagree with around the globe

Quote: I have no problem with the US going across the globe to kill extremists that are plotting to kill US citizens, our allies, etc...

the problem is, you seem to manage a hell of a lot of 'collatoral damage' as you're going for these extremists.....how many need to die before you manage to kill every extremists on the face of this earth. or how about this, all americans go into a bunker thats safe agaisnt nuclear destruction and you can blow the rest of the world to pieces, then you can start all over again, with all the 'good' guys...that way we get rid of all extremists and everyone else will just have to be 'collatoral damage'. then you win. problem sorted


Quote: Also apparently the majority of the Arab world believes that they are right to kill Americans judging by their government's words.

which gvts please?


Quote:
No my answer is to kill them.
If they don't want peace then give them war to the fullest.
Palestine had a chance at stopping the IDF from stomping them and they decided to blow it literally...

my suggestion above would solve this huge problem i think.....

Quote:
Saracen claims to be from Palestine and is able to post. I think there was maybe another poster claiming to be from there... however I do not feel sorry that every Palestinian doesn't have the internet.
Also having a personal computer is no major feet these days, I saw many in very poor areas in Iraq....

i'm not saying that no palestinians has internet access, my point is that comapred with the number of israeli's on this forum they are very few.

[Venom]

Quote: dont deny that a lot of palestinians and many arabs would probably want to wip israel out (as impossible as that is), but i also would believe that israelis as well would probably believe their life would be a hell of a lot better if palestine was wiped off the map as well.
I believe the Israeli people for the most part do not want all of Palestine wiped out but rather they'd like the terrorists killed (much like the US versus Al Qeuda).

Quote: you only see that the big bad arabs hate israel and want them gone, but cant believe that israelis would feel the exact same thing towards palestinians and the rest of the arab world.

The problem with your comments are that the Arab nations have launched military offensives in an attempt to wipe out Israel, the Palestinians, Hezbollah launch terrorist attacks in an effort to kill Israeli people...Israel on the other hand has been reacting to this Arab aggression. They have yet to launch an offensive against Palestine or any other group with the objective of wiping them out without that group having already attacked them.

Quote: the problem is, you seem to manage a hell of a lot of 'collatoral damage' as you're going for these extremists
It's become apparent that most of this collateral damage is actually caused by these very same extremists.

Quote: how many need to die before you manage to kill every extremists on the face of this earth
On the adverse side, how many need to die by these extremists before the world acts? Apparently the literally thousands that are dead from attacks isn't enough for the world to wish to hunt them down.

Quote: all americans go into a bunker thats safe agaisnt nuclear destruction and you can blow the rest of the world to pieces, then you can start all over again, with all the 'good' guys...that way we get rid of all extremists and everyone else will just have to be 'collatoral damage'. then you win. problem sorted
That's the problem, there are extremists around the world including the United States. There are extremists that are US citizens and the US has begun to crack down on this, and they are not all arab islamic radical types either. However, the West is in a war against radical Islam and one side will eventually win.

Quote: which gvts please?
Iran, Syria, Hamas, the former Iraq regime, the Taliban.

Quote: my suggestion above would solve this huge problem i think.....

That's obviously not a real suggestion nor what people on my side of the fence would agree with.

Quote: i'm not saying that no palestinians has internet access, my point is that comapred with the number of israeli's on this forum they are very few.
That has to do with their economic inferiority to Israel. Now people will complain that's Israel's fault. However they have had a chance to have Israel loosen the noose and instead choose to stop any attempt of Israel to withdraw.

[Nico]

Venom wrote: That has to do with their economic inferiority to Israel. Now people will complain that's Israel's fault.

Palestine has an Orange growing economy, among others. I wonder if you can tell me what the sticker on Palestinian grown oranges says....

Hint, "Product of ...... "


Point being that economic inferiority is a direct consequence of the enclosed borders and the control of exports and imports by......" "


The Palestinian territories are also a handy/ tightly controlled cheap labour market for...." "


Ports/ Airports in Palestine are opened/ closed/ controlled by...." "


Services such as electricity are turned off and on at the whim of...." "


water rights in the Palestinian territory of west bank are controlled and said water is used [enforced]mostly by... " "


Internal travel can and is shut off for days by " ", causing massive losses in local income.



As a consequence of this incredibly choked economy, unemployment is extremely high. And the devil makes work for idle hands, in Palestine, in whatever country or religion you are part of.

[Saracen]

MoscowMatt wrote: If you had actually bothered to read the original news article posted you will see the stone throwers were 16 and 20 years old!! Hardly children!! Also as I have already stated if you are a person who believes that these people ONLY throw stones then you are very naive!!

So they deserve to be shot with bullets?! You do know that bullets kill, and that rocks rarely do so, and that there are other means to quell this resistance, like hosing with water or using stun guns?

Quote: You really think the cycle of violence would end if Israel moved out of the occupied territories??? You and I both know full well that the violence from the Palestinians will never stop until Israel is wiped out. Pulling out of these territories will just inspire these peole to that goal. i.e the jobs half done lets keep going!

No. You and I both know well that Israel is seriously at fault and should stop its occupation. Israel as a state has been causing this oppression and torment to the Palestinians. You however believe that Israel is a golden angel and the Palestinians have no right to defend themselves.

Quote: With your analogy about stone throwers in Palestine and say London, you fail to consider all parameters regarding the scenario. You generalised far to much and just focused on the act of throwing a stone without analysing the politics and reasoning behind it. In all you make a very weak argument on that one.

Wrong. They are the same scenario. Throwing a rock at an Israeli soldier in the occupied territories (OCCUPIED TERRITORIES, I REPEAT MYSELF) is the same as throwing a rock at a police officer in London. You seriously think that a handful of teenage rock-throwers are going to wipe Israel off the map with rocks?

You gotta be kidding me...

Quote: Show my the IDF gunning down 6 year olds throwing stones and then I'd be appalled. But most of these 'children' are in their teens and should really know better.

Man, if anything, this confirmed my belief that you are an anti-Arab racist: you'd condone killing those who throw rocks at Israeli soldiers. The Israeli soldiers are more often than not the ones who start such aggression, and even if they didn't, they too have a right to defend themselves, but PROPORTIONATELY.

Quote: If the IDF said under no circumstances shoot anyone throwing stones, how long do you think it would be before one of these 16 year old kids threw stones, got up nice and close because he knows he won't be shot, and then pulls out a grenade? You really think the militants would not think of something like that?

No, they won't. And if they do, they have a right: occupiers have no place in occupied lands. If they scare them out, it's better than killing them.

Quote: I suggest you put yourself in the place of the soldier and ask how would you react, knowing that just one wrong choice could cost you and maybe some of your men their lives? It's easy for you and others to sit behind their computers and pick apart the actions of the IDF with the advantage of hindsight and the ability to spend all day thinking about it. The front line soldier doesn't have that luxury. It's about time people realised that.

I suggest you put yourself in the place of a young child who lives day by day under the shadow of Israeli occupation, in the place of a farmer whose crops go rotten at checkpoints, in the place of a mother who dies before or after giving birth even though she wasn't allowed access to a hospital, in the place of an old man and his aide who are separated at a checkpoint and the old man walks further, in the place of kids who get tormented by Israeli soldiers in refugee camps and get shot by Israeli snipers, and in the place of all Palestinians who have been suffering and going through this s**t for over 50 years and counting. You realize that these Palestinians don't think in the same demented, clockwork line of "military" thought that you think of and instead think of how it addresses to human beings? It's time you realized why the Palestinians throw rocks to begin with, because you're eager to label all Palestinians as rabid anti-Semite Jew-killing Jew-baiting monsters.

You make me sick, MoscowMatt. I think I'm going to barf.

[Venom]

Quote: Whereas the majority of Americans want complete dominance over the world, and are happy to kill anyone to get their way, judging by your governments actions.

I mean, if thats the level we're debating at...
This is the case? I disagree and if we were more than happy to kill anyone that got in our way I believe you'd have seen a lot more invasions by now.

Quote: Point being that economic inferiority is a direct consequence of the enclosed borders and the control of exports and imports by......" "
I don't disagree that they economy is stunted by their enclosed borders, however why are their borders closed? Well they allow terrorism and even elect it to lead them.

Quote: The Palestinian territories are also a handy/ tightly controlled cheap labour market for...." "
So are we arguing for "fair wages" or do you really intend to make it out that the Palestinians are purely used as cheap labour? I suppose the alternative is cutting that off too?

Quote: Ports/ Airports in Palestine are opened/ closed/ controlled by...."
Ports/Airports in Palestine are also used by terrorists on a frequent basis, hence the reasoning for their control. Hamas, Hezbollah, Al Queda etc use these to transport weapons/fighters... it appears to be a pretty common sense move by the IDF in order to attempt to protect Israel.

Quote: As a consequence of this incredibly choked economy, unemployment is extremely high. And the devil makes work for idle hands, in Palestine, in whatever country or religion you are part of.
So because the IDF has choked their economy they become terrorists? Alright. Their economy is choked because they already used terrorism perhaps?
I assume the IDF was at fault as well for the economies of all the Arab nations around it that have attacked them as well?
Also are Native Americans in the United States under these circumstances? They have a high poverty, high unemployment rate, their land was stolen, they live on reservations that are still under the control of the United States government at the end of the day. Yet they are not blowing up Joe American in McDonalds with their suicide vests, nor are they digging tunnels to kill American cops...
The spread of Radical Islam and of course the Muslims before that were very angry with the Jews for being moved there want them removed and history has shown want them removed from this planet.

Quote: So they deserve to be shot with bullets?! You do know that bullets kill, and that rocks rarely do so, and that there are other means to quell this resistance, like hosing with water or using stun guns?

Yes they deserve to be shot by bullets. One was a GROWN MAN the other two teenagers that knew what they were doing. I guess the IDF should bring a firetruck every place they go to hose these people? Or perhaps they should all use a stun gun and be forced to move in close (allowing the much greater potential for ambushes, as well as further risk to such attacks as a suicide vest).

Quote: No. You and I both know well that Israel is seriously at fault and should stop its occupation
No they shouldn't if anything it appears they need to reoccupy terrority. They leave and Palestinians dig holes for warfare... they go to peace talks the Palestians launch of barrage of terrorism..

Quote: Israel as a state has been causing this oppression and torment to the Palestinians. You however believe that Israel is a golden angel and the Palestinians have no right to defend themselves.

The widespread Palestinian belief of defending themselves includes the killing of the Jews until they are gone from the ME apparently since they consider the state of Israel to be occupation of their country alone... not even counting troops outside Israel's border.
Running around in a suicide vest is not a defensive action. Again if Palestine wanted "liberation" so badly they could have stuck out the peace talks but couldn't stop from blowing themselves up long enough to get any where.

Quote: Wrong. They are the same scenario
London is a place of common terrorist attacks, a place full of tunnels hidden with anti tank rockets, etc and full of armed military patrols? No it's not...

Quote: Throwing a rock at an Israeli soldier in the occupied territories (OCCUPIED TERRITORIES, I REPEAT MYSELF) is the same as throwing a rock at a police officer in London
Both are assault with a deadly weapon and deadly intent.

Quote: You seriously think that a handful of teenage rock-throwers are going to wipe Israel off the map with rocks?

No but apparently they are willing to die trying... maybe their cousin with the RPG behind the wall think's he poses a better chance?

Quote: Man, if anything, this confirmed my belief that you are an anti-Arab racist: you'd condone killing those who throw rocks at Israeli soldiers
Believing that you can defend yourself with deadly force when in a "foreign" territory, when under assualt with weapons that can kill you (rocks are indiscriminate by the way).

Quote: The Israeli soldiers are more often than not the ones who start such aggression, and even if they didn't, they too have a right to defend themselves, but PROPORTIONATELY.

So if the Israeli soldier felt his life was in danger then he is within his right to defend himself.

Quote: No, they won't. And if they do, they have a right: occupiers have no place in occupied lands
They won't? Palestine the land of suicide bombings wouldn't pull out a grenade under the disguise of being a rock thrower?...
So basically any Israeli can be killed for being in Palestinian land no matter what? Also if I recall ALL of Israel is OCCUPIED land is it not? So I guess your words or a great reason for a military buffer zone.

Quote: If they scare them out, it's better than killing them.
Which isn't going to happen.

Quote: suggest you put yourself in the place of a young child who lives day by day under the shadow of Israeli occupation, in the place of a farmer whose crops go rotten at checkpoints, in the place of a mother who dies before or after giving birth even though she wasn't allowed access to a hospital, in the place of an old man and his aide who are separated at a checkpoint and the old man walks further, in the place of kids who get tormented by Israeli soldiers in refugee camps and get shot by Israeli snipers, and in the place of all Palestinians who have been suffering and going through this s**t for over 50 years and counting
And then consider these same people elected a terorrist orginaztion to lead their government, the same people who ruined the most promising peace talks they have seen to this date...

Quote: realize that these Palestinians don't think in the same demented, clockwork line of "military" thought that you think of and instead think of how it addresses to human beings? It's time you realized why the Palestinians throw rocks to begin with, because you're eager to label all Palestinians as rabid anti-Semite Jew-killing Jew-baiting monsters.

If these people didn't desire the death of the Jewish state of Israel so badly maybe they could stop their terrorism long enough to get some place? Rather they apparently use the same strategy for 50 years which has gotten them no place. I believe it would be good to realize that the military has come out because the Palestinians have launched their attacks, the military stays because they throw rocks, shoot RPGs, shoot AKs... etc...
If your tired of the military being there then you should ask your fellow countrymen to stop the terrorism.