Political Crossfire Forums

[Afgan]

This thread is in no way intended to offend any people. I would just like to make a point.

It is important to know that girls during the Biblical and Islamic days used to be married off at young ages. It was quite different for men on the other hand, because physical power and the ability of living an independent life. 1400 years ago their life expectancy was much lower -- 25/40 for Women, bit more for men.

That is why you see girls as young as 9 or 10 were married to men as old as 30 or even older. The culture back then and in many third world countries today (NON-MUSLIM ONES TOO) is quite different than what you live in today. I do hope sincerely, that our well respected Christian people come to except this fact. Thank you.

Child brides as young as 8 (eight) were common among the Byzantine emperors and nobility!

An Online Encyclopedia of Roman Emperors


Agnes-Anna of France,wife of Alexius II and Andronicus I of the Comneni Dynasty

Lynda Garland
University of New England, Australia

Andrew Stone
University of Western Australia


Quote: The child empress Agnes of France was the spouse of two emperors of Byzantium, the boy emperor Alexius II Comnenus, and subsequently Andronicus I Comnenus, the latter's first cousin once removed. Agnes was born to King Louis VII of France's third wife, Adèle (or Alix) of Blois-Champagne, the daughter of Count Theobald II of Blois, in 1172. This made her the younger sister of the future French king Philip II Augustus. The house of Blois-Champagne was the second most powerful magnate house in France (after the house of Plantagenet). The emperor Manuel I Comnenus was looking for allies in the west, since the Peace of Venice in 1177 had effectively allied the Pope (Alexander III), the Holy Roman Empire, Venice, the other Italian communes and Sicily against him. After discussion with the count of Flanders, Philip of Alsace, who visited Constantinople in early 1178 on his way back from the Holy Land, Manuel sent an embassy, including Philip, to the French court over the winter of 1178-1179 to secure a match between his son Alexius (born in 1169) and the princess Agnes.[[1]] This match may have been opposed by the members of the house of Blois-Champagne, who were pro-German.[[2]]

According to William of Tyre, Agnes was only eight on her arrival at Constantinople, while Alexius was thirteen; in fact Alexius was born on 14 September 1169.[[3]] Child brides, whether Byzantines or foreign princesses, were the norm rather than the exception, especially from the late twelfth century. Irene Ducaena, wife of Alexius I Comnenus, was twelve at her marriage, and empress before she was fifteen; the Byzantine princess Theodora, Manuel's niece, was in her thirteenth year when she married Baldwin III of Jerusalem; and Margaret-Maria of Hungary married Isaac II Angelus at the age of nine. Agnes's age, then, was not unusual, especially as it was customary for young engaged couples in Constantinople to be brought up together in the house of the socially superior partner.[[4]]



Quote: We hear little of Agnes during Alexius' reign (24 September 1180 to prior to 24 September 1183). It is highly unlikely that the match was consummated, as it was customary to import imperial brides from overseas at a young age to enable them to become acquainted with Greek and with their future ceremonial duties; certainly it was unusual under normal circumstances for Byzantine girls to marry before the age of twelve. However, shortly before Alexius completed three years as emperor, Manuel's first cousin Andronicus made himself co-emperor and then usurped Alexius's position altogether, putting him out of the way by having him throttled. Nicetas Choniates then, with morbid relish, claims that Andronicus (who was born c. 1118 and was thus about 65 years of age) sexually exploited the eleven-year old princess.[[13]] Despite the fact that his marriage to Anna, some fifty years his junior, may well have been made for political reasons -- and Andronicus had portraits of Mary of Antioch in the capital replaced with ones of himself either alone or accompanied by his child-bride[[14]]-- Choniates makes the most of the opportunity to ridicule Andronicus, his age and the incongruity of the alliance ('the overripe suitor embracing the unripe maiden, the dotard the damsel with pointed breasts, the shriveled and languid old man the rosy-fingered girl dripping with the dew of love').[[15]] According to Eustathius of Thessalonica as well, the match was repugnant to her, as she regretted Alexius' death and loathed Andronicus:[[16]] She was the young daughter of the king of France, and as everybody knew hated the union because she was full of intelligence; and after having experienced a different kind of gentle loving, she loathed the roughness of Andronicus. Sometimes, they say, she would imagine in her dreams that she saw the young Alexius, and would cry out his name, and she alone knew what she suffered.

roman-emperors.org

[John Galt]

What is your point? That a long time ago Christians used to practice terrible things? So what, at least they do not any more, and if hey do they are rightly arrested in civilized countries. Past wrongs is a poor excuse to continue them.

[Afgan]

John Galt wrote: What is your point?...

That child brides during the early period, had nothing to do with Religion.

As the article said, it were the 'norm' rather than the exception'.

It is most likely that your great great great...grandmother were married at a very young age. That is something people should except.

It was widely practiced and should not be blamed entirely on Religion. That is the point. Most people living today are probably related to somebody who were once married at a young age.

[mODULAR mAN]

Mary, the mother of Jesus was 14 when she got knocked up. Old for those days...

Let's face it. Women (and girls) got the shaft (so to speak) in the past. They were considered little more than property.

We've come a long, long, long way (baby) but still have a long way to go.

Neanderthals, like Rush, and their crusade against women is the battle that has been brought to our door, in our time. It is a battle we must win.

Our respect for our aunts, sisters and mothers demands no less.

[John Galt]

Modular man, care to explain how a person living today could possibly be considered an exticnt species? Furthermore do you have any evidence to support your contention that he is waging a "crusade" against "women"? Thanks.

OK Afgan, but I would still damn any "culture" that allows such subjegation of women. Past wrongs done do not justify the same wrongs continued existence.

[Angelicus]

mODULAR mAN wrote: Mary, the mother of Jesus was 14 when she got knocked up. Old for those days...

Let's face it. Women (and girls) got the shaft (so to speak) in the past. They were considered little more than property.

We've come a long, long, long way (baby) but still have a long way to go.

Neanderthals, like Rush, and their crusade against women is the battle that has been brought to our door, in our time. It is a battle we must win.

Our respect for our aunts, sisters and mothers demands no less.

Not all women were.

From Eve onward women have always, and will always, play an important role in Gods plan for mankind.

In the old testament, there are several instances where God has used women too do his will, and spread his word. In the new testament we are commanded to love our wives as Christ loves the Church.

Does Christ love the Church as his property? Or as a father who loves his children?

In fact, Christ valued women so much, he chose for women to be the very first one's to spread the glorious news of his ressurection.

I think it is a bit disingenous to say that women of the Bible were all little more than property and then to use that too try and justify what we today consider to be child rape.

[mODULAR mAN]

John Galt wrote: Modular man, care to explain how a person living today could possibly be considered an exticnt species? Furthermore do you have any evidence to support your contention that he is waging a "crusade" against "women"? Thanks.

OK Afgan, but I would still damn any "culture" that allows such subjegation of women. Past wrongs done do not justify the same wrongs continued existence.

I was speaking in parables... :wink:

Seriously, Rush is well known for his tirades against "Feminazi's", Women's Rights and NOW.

It panders to his crowd and gives them reasons to resist positive change for women.

Certainly, you are aware of the problems women face in todays society?

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLG,GGLG:2006-23,GGLG:en&q=women%27s+rights+issues


Just the fact that women are paid less for the same job as men is an affront to my sense of justice.

Not to mention the sex trafficing, forced marriages, denial of abortion rights, lack of legal standing as a rape victim, and other "past wrongs" that exist today.

No, not all in America, but they exist, just the same. And if a popular figure like Rush dismisses attempts for fairness, then we can't expect his listeners to have any sense of urgency (from his perspective).

[John Galt]

mODULAR mAN wrote: John Galt wrote: Modular man, care to explain how a person living today could possibly be considered an exticnt species? Furthermore do you have any evidence to support your contention that he is waging a "crusade" against "women"? Thanks.

OK Afgan, but I would still damn any "culture" that allows such subjegation of women. Past wrongs done do not justify the same wrongs continued existence.

I was speaking in parables... :wink:

Seriously, Rush is well known for his tirades against "Feminazi's", Women's Rights and NOW.

It panders to his crowd and gives them reasons to resist positive change for women.

Certainly, you are aware of the problems women face in todays society?

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLG,GGLG:2006-23,GGLG:en&q=women%27s+rights+issues


Just the fact that women are paid less for the same job as men is an affront to my sense of justice.

Not to mention the sex trafficing, forced marriages, denial of abortion rights, lack of legal standing as a rape victim, and other "past wrongs" that exist today.

No, not all in America, but they exist, just the same. And if a popular figure like Rush dismisses attempts for fairness, then we can't expect his listeners to have any sense of urgency (from his perspective).

Women are paid the same for the same job. /gasp!

Yes it's true.

Women are paid differently for different yet similar jobs.

Consider: 8 men and 2 women work at a dog food company. They are al paid 20 an hour

8 women and two men work at a cat food company. They are paid 18 an hour


The problem with all those studies that say the "same job" is that it ISN'T the same job and there are a host of other factors. Women in general make less, but not for the same job. First and foremost of reasons why women make "less" then men: line of work.


I went to an all-male university. I took, however, classes also at the all-female college nearby. They took classes with us. We were really the same school -- but different. Last year, apparently, the new President of the women's college, at the commencement speech, talked about the importance of women taking on non-traditional majors for women. Needless to say, the nursing majors were quite upset -- and why wouldn't they be, it is a very difficult major. There was one male nursing major in my graduating class at my univeristy. There were dozens and dozens of females (out of a mere few hundred). The divergence of careers lead to differences in pay.

Women also have babies. They take extend leaves and don't make as much money.

Women are less likely to demand higher pay. This is no fault of the employer but the employee.

There are other aggrevating variables as well.

As for Rush, yes, he is against abortion-"rights" groups. Why does that make him against "women"? To be for young women means to be against older women? Ha!

There have been plenty of positive changes for women in the past century. And they are very good things. The reason is because of increases in technology, which allow for housework to be done easily. The vaccum, microwave and swiffer has more to do with women's empowerment than any of the bra-burners could ever dreamed of.

I cook, clean the master and spare bedrooms, do the dishes and clean my bathroom regularly. My wife does the laundy, cleans the downstairs living area and cleans her bathroom. She has an excellent job and I am very proud of her. I also think Rush is too far on the left for me to stand to listen to without getting a headache.

[LetsGetReal]

This is the Christian Sub-Forum not politics/society if you must debate politics/society please make a thread in the appropriate Sub-Forum. Just because the person is a so-called Christian doesn't mean it belogns in this forum. Thanks....:1evil:

[John Galt]

LetsGetReal wrote: This is the Christian Sub-Forum not politics/society if you must debate politics/society please make a thread in the appropriate Sub-Forum. Just because the person is a so-called Christian doesn't mean it belogns in this forum. Thanks....:1evil:

Who is a "so-called Christian"? The emperor of the Byzantine Empire? It is suitable enough for this forum and I amnot going to be told to move something.

[LetsGetReal]

Your talking about the differences between Men and Women would this not be a societal issue and I mis-spoke with the so-called Christian comment. I don't see how the differences between Men and Women have anything to do with Christianity at least in the context you guys have taken it to.

And I would say 600 AD was hardly biblical time...

[MJB]

As always with this subject, I must say that I find comparing what was done in times past to our modern western culture, and being critical of it and calling it inappropriate or wrong, because it may offend our sensibilities today, to be rather presumptuous.

Aside from the fact that life span and age of sexual maturity has not remained consistent through the generations, a girl may have been married at one age, with consummation of that marriage not occurring until after she reached what was considered to be the age of womanhood - which may have been at menses, or some years after that.

Another important thing to remember is that in much of the world in times past, a female had absolutely no rights or protection under the law, and having a male guardian, whether he be her father, brother, or husband, was her only legal means of security, so marriage for a girl at such a young age, was not necessarily motivated by any impropriety on the part of her family, or her husband.

Marriage is a ceremony, it is not a sexual act, so the image some tend to have of the child bride being a pre-pubescent girl forced into sexual servitude to a husband, is not necessarily a fair or just picture of what was actually occurring.

[cap'n queasy]

How old is the average Afghani women when she is married today? Considerably younger than the average in the West, I', willing to wager.

I could list a whole slew of examples of Muslims marrying child brides in history, too.

How ridiculous can you get? People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

[Korimyr the Rat]

cap'n queasy wrote: How old is the average Afghani women when she is married today? Considerably younger than the average in the West, I', willing to wager.

Probably a good thing, considering how ridiculous "prolonged adolescence" is becoming in the West.

[prometeus]

In the Islam section, Mohamed has been taking quite a rap as a pedophile for marrying Aisha. Would this have anything to do with that?

It has been presented, marriage at such a young age, as a way to cement alliances in those days, it it may have very well been so. The question that remains is why would have a man of God [Mohamed] need any alliances?

Christ did not need any alliance strenghtened.

[cap'n queasy]

Korimyr the Rat wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: How old is the average Afghani women when she is married today? Considerably younger than the average in the West, I', willing to wager.

Probably a good thing, considering how ridiculous "prolonged adolescence" is becoming in the West.

Yes, 40 year old adolescents are pretty ridiculous. :lol: And that is fairly common in our culture.

[Angelicus]

:lol: