Political Crossfire Forums

[Gilbert1908]

toddytodd wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: Shady wrote: John wrote: Quote: What was the religious ceremony for a legitimate marriage in the Old Testament?
New Testament?
In the Viking culture?
Japanese culture?
Hindu culture?
Wicca culture?
Aboriginal culture?
Native American Culture?

The ceremony is that a man and a woman come together and form a family unit.

It has never in all of history included a man and a man..or a woman and a woman.

It's a make believe thing "Gay marriage". It's an oxymoron.

Ancient Greece had a great deal of homosexuality and I suspect you'd agree they were one of the most influential nations culturally ever.

Perhaps you can provide the rich history of homosexual marriage celebrated in Greece.

A quick internet search found numerous links to your request, as well as Native American gay marriages, middle eastern, Chinese, Japanese, etc.

Great please share them with us, so we can all find out more.

[toddytodd]

Gilbert1908 wrote: toddytodd wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: Shady wrote: John wrote: Quote: What was the religious ceremony for a legitimate marriage in the Old Testament?
New Testament?
In the Viking culture?
Japanese culture?
Hindu culture?
Wicca culture?
Aboriginal culture?
Native American Culture?

The ceremony is that a man and a woman come together and form a family unit.

It has never in all of history included a man and a man..or a woman and a woman.

It's a make believe thing "Gay marriage". It's an oxymoron.

Ancient Greece had a great deal of homosexuality and I suspect you'd agree they were one of the most influential nations culturally ever.

Perhaps you can provide the rich history of homosexual marriage celebrated in Greece.

A quick internet search found numerous links to your request, as well as Native American gay marriages, middle eastern, Chinese, Japanese, etc.

Great please share them with us, so we can all find out more.


It is very simple to do a search and a little reading. Unlike the many times I have been told "find it yourself" from people on here (some which have commented in this thread), I will supply you with one of many links I found with a simple search. It not only covers Greek society, but other societies as well. It also covers marriage and many other types of relationships.

http://www.androphile.org

Again, the point isn't 'what it has always been', it is 'what do we need it to be now'. History which tells us that gay relationships and differing types of marriage were accepted and or done. We can learn from history, but we also need to make our own.
Basing a countries view of marriage in a legal aspect from an ancient culture from another part of the world is biased, by the true meaning of the word.

I will stress again: no one is asking the church to recognize gay marriage, we are asking the gov't to recognize it. There is a huge difference between the two.

[Gilbert1908]

toddytodd wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: toddytodd wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: Shady wrote: John wrote: Quote: What was the religious ceremony for a legitimate marriage in the Old Testament?
New Testament?
In the Viking culture?
Japanese culture?
Hindu culture?
Wicca culture?
Aboriginal culture?
Native American Culture?

The ceremony is that a man and a woman come together and form a family unit.

It has never in all of history included a man and a man..or a woman and a woman.

It's a make believe thing "Gay marriage". It's an oxymoron.

Ancient Greece had a great deal of homosexuality and I suspect you'd agree they were one of the most influential nations culturally ever.

Perhaps you can provide the rich history of homosexual marriage celebrated in Greece.

A quick internet search found numerous links to your request, as well as Native American gay marriages, middle eastern, Chinese, Japanese, etc.

Great please share them with us, so we can all find out more.

I'll give you the answer I constantly get from others on here:
"Find them yourself - you learn better when you have to do the research on your own."
Isn't that annoying?
Here's a hint though: Google 'ancient Greek gay marriage', you can also get different links (with varying themes of 'ancient Greek gay marriage') with a quick visit to ASKJEEVES.COM.

Again, the point isn't 'what it has always been', it is 'what do we need it to be now'. We can learn from history, but we also have to make our own.
Basing a countries view of marriage in a legal aspect from an ancient culture from another part of the world is biased, by the true meaning of the word.
I will stress again: no one is asking the church to recognize gay marriage, we are asking the gov't to recognize it. There is a huge difference between the two.

What you are asking is for people who have a specific religious belief to abandon that belief in favor of your preference, because you don't value their belief.

The government is supposed to represent the views of its constituency, the majority of which in the USA presently disagree with you.

[Gilbert1908]

toddytodd wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: toddytodd wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: Shady wrote: John wrote: Quote: What was the religious ceremony for a legitimate marriage in the Old Testament?
New Testament?
In the Viking culture?
Japanese culture?
Hindu culture?
Wicca culture?
Aboriginal culture?
Native American Culture?

The ceremony is that a man and a woman come together and form a family unit.

It has never in all of history included a man and a man..or a woman and a woman.

It's a make believe thing "Gay marriage". It's an oxymoron.

Ancient Greece had a great deal of homosexuality and I suspect you'd agree they were one of the most influential nations culturally ever.

Perhaps you can provide the rich history of homosexual marriage celebrated in Greece.

A quick internet search found numerous links to your request, as well as Native American gay marriages, middle eastern, Chinese, Japanese, etc.

Great please share them with us, so we can all find out more.

I'll give you the answer I constantly get from others on here:
"Find them yourself - you learn better when you have to do the research on your own."
Isn't that annoying?
Here's a hint though: Google 'ancient Greek gay marriage', you can also get different links (with varying themes of 'ancient Greek gay marriage') with a quick visit to ASKJEEVES.COM.

Again, the point isn't 'what it has always been', it is 'what do we need it to be now'. We can learn from history, but we also have to make our own.
Basing a countries view of marriage in a legal aspect from an ancient culture from another part of the world is biased, by the true meaning of the word.
I will stress again: no one is asking the church to recognize gay marriage, we are asking the gov't to recognize it. There is a huge difference between the two.

What you are asking is for people who have a specific religious belief to abandon that belief in favor of your preference, because you don't value their belief.

The government is supposed to represent the views of its constituency, the majority of which in the USA presently disagree with you.

[toddytodd]

Gilbert1908 wrote: toddytodd wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: toddytodd wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: Shady wrote: John wrote: Quote: What was the religious ceremony for a legitimate marriage in the Old Testament?
New Testament?
In the Viking culture?
Japanese culture?
Hindu culture?
Wicca culture?
Aboriginal culture?
Native American Culture?

The ceremony is that a man and a woman come together and form a family unit.

It has never in all of history included a man and a man..or a woman and a woman.

It's a make believe thing "Gay marriage". It's an oxymoron.

Ancient Greece had a great deal of homosexuality and I suspect you'd agree they were one of the most influential nations culturally ever.

Perhaps you can provide the rich history of homosexual marriage celebrated in Greece.

A quick internet search found numerous links to your request, as well as Native American gay marriages, middle eastern, Chinese, Japanese, etc.

Great please share them with us, so we can all find out more.

I'll give you the answer I constantly get from others on here:
"Find them yourself - you learn better when you have to do the research on your own."
Isn't that annoying?
Here's a hint though: Google 'ancient Greek gay marriage', you can also get different links (with varying themes of 'ancient Greek gay marriage') with a quick visit to ASKJEEVES.COM.

Again, the point isn't 'what it has always been', it is 'what do we need it to be now'. We can learn from history, but we also have to make our own.
Basing a countries view of marriage in a legal aspect from an ancient culture from another part of the world is biased, by the true meaning of the word.
I will stress again: no one is asking the church to recognize gay marriage, we are asking the gov't to recognize it. There is a huge difference between the two.

What you are asking is for people who have a specific religious belief to abandon that belief in favor of your preference, because you don't value their belief.

The government is supposed to represent the views of its constituency, the majority of which in the USA presently disagree with you.

Let me know what you think of the supplied link. I know you are curious as to what is says about gay marriage throughout history, since you asked about it. I am interested in your thoughts....

So your belief is to prohibit gay people from being happy and legally protected? That doesn't sound to Christ like at all. That is all we are asking for - legal protection, not for anyone to give up their beliefs. Since when does your belief(s) translate into law?
Would you also like stores to be closed on the sabbath as well? Isn't one of your beliefs to 'remember the sabbath and keep it holy"? Or is that open for translation?
Let's ensure that there are no other god before God. That's one of your beliefs too, right - "there shall be no other Gods before me" or "graven images" and the like.
Note that one person previously has said that their religion doesn't have sex dependencies on marriage. What about their view of marriage? It doesn't seem to coincide with yours, but it doesn't matter because your view is 'correct'? How do you address this?

While we are so concerned about the strength of marriage and the family unit, let's:
- make divorce illegal (except on grounds of adultery)
- prohibit marriage for money or status (since those aren't sincere reasons - the love of money can keep people out of heaven, after all)
- marriage of someone born both sexes, but "made" to be one or the other (or even people of both sexes)
- the marriage of anyone who has had a sex change, because that isn't what God made originally, so they must be wrong
- marriages for anyone under a certain age that the church decides is correct
the list can continue.
When we will insist on eliminating the power of the church on everyone's life?
At one point throughout US history, many things were considered 'christian' or of 'christian belief', but have been changed to reflect societies standards. Why isn't anyone complaining about those things? Because religion and religious beliefs change with human evolution. Should it? I suppose it depends on what you believe if it's God inspired.
The majority disagrees with me? I am not sure that is accurate. Perhaps the majority of the 'voting' public (even so...). Many people of my age and (I assume) your age agrees with me - even many Christians. Let's remember that the more christians push this issue with hate filled words and no conclusive proof that their views are anything but grand ideas, the younger generation coming of voting age strongly supports gay marriage. Isn't it ironic that the christian principle of heterosexual coupling to promote the human race is producing offspring that disagrees with it vehemently?
Through out this conversation I have asked you perhaps three times to show me how gay marriage will effect you and all you have been able to come up with (surprisingly) is that it in fridges on your beliefs. That is a reason not to force you into a gay marriage, but nothing else.

This is just another step in the religious and society evolution.

[Enoch]

John wrote: Enoch wrote: John wrote: Quote: What was the religious ceremony for a legitimate marriage in the Old Testament?
New Testament?
In the Viking culture?
Japanese culture?
Hindu culture?
Wicca culture?
Aboriginal culture?
Native American Culture?

The ceremony is that a man and a woman come together and form a family unit.

It has never in all of history included a man and a man..or a woman and a woman.

It's a make believe thing "Gay marriage". It's an oxymoron.

That is wrong. Wiccan marriage has no prohibitions on two men or two women joining together.

Wiccans haven't been around very long now have they?

Do you believe that "Wiccans" were marrying homosexuals in the 1800's? That is beside the point. I was providing that to prove you wrong...which was fun to do, I must admit. While Wicca is a young religion, it embraces same sex marriages and opposite sex marriages with the same reverence, respect, and honor. So, your "gay marriage is an oxymoron" contention is ridiculous.

[John]

Enoch wrote: John wrote: Enoch wrote: John wrote: Quote: What was the religious ceremony for a legitimate marriage in the Old Testament?
New Testament?
In the Viking culture?
Japanese culture?
Hindu culture?
Wicca culture?
Aboriginal culture?
Native American Culture?

The ceremony is that a man and a woman come together and form a family unit.

It has never in all of history included a man and a man..or a woman and a woman.

It's a make believe thing "Gay marriage". It's an oxymoron.

That is wrong. Wiccan marriage has no prohibitions on two men or two women joining together.

Wiccans haven't been around very long now have they?

Do you believe that "Wiccans" were marrying homosexuals in the 1800's? That is beside the point. I was providing that to prove you wrong...which was fun to do, I must admit. While Wicca is a young religion, it embraces same sex marriages and opposite sex marriages with the same reverence, respect, and honor. So, your "gay marriage is an oxymoron" contention is ridiculous.


ox·y·mo·ron Pronunciation (ks-môrn, -mr-)
n. pl. ox·y·mo·ra (-môr, -mr) or ox·y·mo·rons
A rhetorical figure in which incongruous or contradictory terms are combined, as in a deafening silence and a mournful optimist.



Marriage has always meant the union between a man and a woman.

So yes "Gay...Marriage" is a perfect example of an oxymoron.

[F'losrix]

Gilbert1908 wrote: What you are asking is for people who have a specific religious belief to abandon that belief in favor of your preference, because you don't value their belief.
Government NEUTRALITY with respect to differing religious beliefs on the subject of marriage does NOT ask you to abandon your specific religious beliefs. It merely means you don't get to boss everyone else around by restricting the GOVERNMENT's recognition of marriage to a compliance with your beliefs.

By insisting that government not take this neutral position and must instead adhere to the religious views of anti-gay religions on the topic of marriage, YOU are asking for people who have a specific religious belief to abandon that belief in favor of YOUR preference, because YOU don't value THEIR belief. Talk about being blind...

Quote: The government is supposed to represent the views of its constituency, the majority of which in the USA presently disagree with you.
We are a part of the government's constituency - whether the anti-gay Christians like it or not, and this is NOT a direct democracy where fickle majority opinion rules supreme on all issues.

[F'losrix]

John wrote: ox·y·mo·ron Pronunciation (ks-môrn, -mr-)
n. pl. ox·y·mo·ra (-môr, -mr) or ox·y·mo·rons
A rhetorical figure in which incongruous or contradictory terms are combined, as in a deafening silence and a mournful optimist.


Marriage has always meant the union between a man and a woman.

So yes "Gay...Marriage" is a perfect example of an oxymoron.
We have come full circle, all the way back to the original assertions about marriage. You say marriage is this, we say it's that, and never will there be an ounce of agreement. We tell you that you're welcome to your belief, but it's not enough for you. No, your faith is so weak that it apparently can't withstand the government's recognition of marriages that don't conform with your beliefs. Meanwhile, people who don't share your beliefs remain strong in their faith, despite your attempts to use the government as your personal steamroller to flatten them.

I think the debate is finished. If you have nothing to offer beyond the tired 'oxymoron' and 'man/woman' circular arguments, there's really nothing polite left to be said.

[F'losrix]

Being a Christian doesn't inherently make one a bigot, but I take the content of this thread as evidence that it certainly can help pave the way for a person with a certain mindset to becoming one.

[Enoch]

John wrote: Enoch wrote: John wrote: Enoch wrote: John wrote: Quote: What was the religious ceremony for a legitimate marriage in the Old Testament?
New Testament?
In the Viking culture?
Japanese culture?
Hindu culture?
Wicca culture?
Aboriginal culture?
Native American Culture?

The ceremony is that a man and a woman come together and form a family unit.

It has never in all of history included a man and a man..or a woman and a woman.

It's a make believe thing "Gay marriage". It's an oxymoron.

That is wrong. Wiccan marriage has no prohibitions on two men or two women joining together.

Wiccans haven't been around very long now have they?

Do you believe that "Wiccans" were marrying homosexuals in the 1800's? That is beside the point. I was providing that to prove you wrong...which was fun to do, I must admit. While Wicca is a young religion, it embraces same sex marriages and opposite sex marriages with the same reverence, respect, and honor. So, your "gay marriage is an oxymoron" contention is ridiculous.


ox·y·mo·ron Pronunciation (ks-môrn, -mr-)
n. pl. ox·y·mo·ra (-môr, -mr) or ox·y·mo·rons
A rhetorical figure in which incongruous or contradictory terms are combined, as in a deafening silence and a mournful optimist.



Marriage has always meant the union between a man and a woman.

So yes "Gay...Marriage" is a perfect example of an oxymoron. You amaze me John. No matter how many times you are proven wrong, you keep on posting the same crap. Marriage has not "always meant the union between a man and a woman." The fact that Wiccans celebrate gay marriages with the same respect and honor as straight marriages proves your point wrong.

[F'losrix]

Enoch wrote: You amaze me John. No matter how many times you are proven wrong, you keep on posting the same crap. Marriage has not "always meant the union between a man and a woman." The fact that Wiccans celebrate gay marriages with the same respect and honor as straight marriages proves your point wrong.
As do historical records of polygamy.

As does the etymology of the word marriage. A 'married' man was literally a man who had been given a woman - marriage was at one time an economic contract between two men - the groom and whatever male relative was held responsible for the bride.

Marriage has never been exactly the same from culture to culture, age to age. The history of men marrying other men and women marrying women appears to have been largely covered up, and while the its modern history is short, it is nonetheless proof that marriage is no longer limited to one group's ideas about it.

[Rozzlapeed]

Gilbert1908 wrote: The government is supposed to represent the views of its constituency, the majority of which in the USA presently disagree with you.

No it's not. The government is supposed to establish justice, ensure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and in our specific case, ensure the blessings of liberty for me and my kids.

Views have nothing to do with it.

[Shady]

Gilbert1908 wrote: Shady wrote: John wrote: Quote: What was the religious ceremony for a legitimate marriage in the Old Testament?
New Testament?
In the Viking culture?
Japanese culture?
Hindu culture?
Wicca culture?
Aboriginal culture?
Native American Culture?

The ceremony is that a man and a woman come together and form a family unit.

It has never in all of history included a man and a man..or a woman and a woman.

It's a make believe thing "Gay marriage". It's an oxymoron.

Ancient Greece had a great deal of homosexuality and I suspect you'd agree they were one of the most influential nations culturally ever.

Perhaps you can provide the rich history of homosexual marriage celebrated in Greece.

I didn't mention marriage, my point was specifically that homosexuality doesn't ruin soceity like some of you think it will or does.

[eynon]

Shady wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: Shady wrote: John wrote: Quote: What was the religious ceremony for a legitimate marriage in the Old Testament?
New Testament?
In the Viking culture?
Japanese culture?
Hindu culture?
Wicca culture?
Aboriginal culture?
Native American Culture?

The ceremony is that a man and a woman come together and form a family unit.

It has never in all of history included a man and a man..or a woman and a woman.

It's a make believe thing "Gay marriage". It's an oxymoron.

Ancient Greece had a great deal of homosexuality and I suspect you'd agree they were one of the most influential nations culturally ever.

Perhaps you can provide the rich history of homosexual marriage celebrated in Greece.

I didn't mention marriage, my point was specifically that homosexuality doesn't ruin soceity like some of you think it will or does.

it can f**k with your birth rates though, Romes' ultimate triumph over the Hellens in the 1st and 2nd centuries bc had a lot to do with Rome's massive reserve of man-power.

Course homosexuality was not a major factor in that man-power difference, so I'll shut up now 8:)

[Shady]

wannabe wrote: it can f**k with your birth rates though, Romes' ultimate triumph over the Hellens in the 1st and 2nd centuries bc had a lot to do with Rome's massive reserve of man-power.

Course homosexuality was not a major factor in that man-power difference, so I'll shut up now 8:)

We have 300 million people in this country. We aren't running out.

[eynon]

Shady wrote: wannabe wrote: it can f**k with your birth rates though, Romes' ultimate triumph over the Hellens in the 1st and 2nd centuries bc had a lot to do with Rome's massive reserve of man-power.

Course homosexuality was not a major factor in that man-power difference, so I'll shut up now 8:)

We have 300 million people in this country. We aren't running out.



"I had noticed that your country is dangerously underpopulated"-Apu

[Shady]

wannabe wrote:

"I had noticed that your country is dangerously underpopulated"-Apu

:lol: I think the real shame is that the government is involved at marriage at all. If it wasn't, which it shouldn't, this would be such a non-issue- and it SHOULD be a non-issue.

[eynon]

Shady wrote: wannabe wrote:

"I had noticed that your country is dangerously underpopulated"-Apu

:lol: I think the real shame is that the government is involved at marriage at all. If it wasn't, which it shouldn't, this would be such a non-issue- and it SHOULD be a non-issue.

ideally the government would simply enforce marriage contracts written up and agreed upon by the particular parties involved.

a lot like the old Roman system, they had something like 4 different forms of marriage, depending on the contract one agreed to.

[toddytodd]

wannabe wrote: Shady wrote: wannabe wrote: it can f**k with your birth rates though, Romes' ultimate triumph over the Hellens in the 1st and 2nd centuries bc had a lot to do with Rome's massive reserve of man-power.

Course homosexuality was not a major factor in that man-power difference, so I'll shut up now 8:)

We have 300 million people in this country. We aren't running out.



"I had noticed that your country is dangerously underpopulated"-Apu

:lol: Love it! :lol:
There is much to be taught (and learned) from 'The Simpsons'