Political Crossfire Forums

[agentkgb]

MoscowMatt wrote: agentkgb wrote: MoscowMatt wrote: Further to the whole cluster bomb issue I think the only really evil weapon is the landmine. Did Israel plant a load of those in Lebanon??
They have very similar effects. There are gazillions of unexploded bombs out there.

You can see a cluster bomb though, most are painted bright colours as well. Honestly if you are stupid enough to pick one up..... Oh and before I get the predictable response when I was about 5 years old I walked round a Middle East village which still had unexploded ordinance. I was made fully aware the risks and knew full well not to pick anything up!
Sometimes they're not out in the middle of a street. They're in plants, they're in houses even, and I heard somewhere of some in trees.
And people aren't born 5 years old. People should be able to let their two-year olds wander around their gardens without fear of them being blown up.

[MoscowMatt]

agentkgb wrote: MoscowMatt wrote: agentkgb wrote: MoscowMatt wrote: Further to the whole cluster bomb issue I think the only really evil weapon is the landmine. Did Israel plant a load of those in Lebanon??
They have very similar effects. There are gazillions of unexploded bombs out there.

You can see a cluster bomb though, most are painted bright colours as well. Honestly if you are stupid enough to pick one up..... Oh and before I get the predictable response when I was about 5 years old I walked round a Middle East village which still had unexploded ordinance. I was made fully aware the risks and knew full well not to pick anything up!
Sometimes they're not out in the middle of a street. They're in plants, they're in houses even, and I heard somewhere of some in trees.
And people aren't born 5 years old. People should be able to let their two-year olds wander around their gardens without fear of them being blown up.

Well if I were a parent then I would have the sense to check the garden first if there had been an air-raid. It would be stupid just to let your child wonder around on their own if you knew there was such a risk.

Oh and how is a 2 year old gonna get up a tree?!!! :P

[agentkgb]

MoscowMatt wrote: Well if I were a parent then I would have the sense to check the garden first if there had been an air-raid. It would be stupid just to let your child wonder around on their own if you knew there was such a risk.
Like I said before, they might not be easy to see.
MoscowMatt wrote: Oh and how is a 2 year old gonna get up a tree?!!! :P
They wouldn't, the bomblet might fall down though.

[MoscowMatt]

agentkgb wrote:
Like I said before, they might not be easy to see.


Spot the cluster bomb!!



Damn can't see it anywhere!! :lol:

[agentkgb]

MoscowMatt wrote: agentkgb wrote:
Like I said before, they might not be easy to see.


Spot the cluster bomb!!
They're not always lying in the open like that.
If they painted them with bright red paint with glow-in-the-dark stripes and dropped them all over the UK, would you be OK with that? Assuming that there was a terrorist group that resided in the UK?

[Plato & Socrates]

MoscowMatt wrote: Plato & Socrates wrote: MoscowMatt wrote:

The key to resolving the conflict is there for all to see. The likes of Hamas stop violence and recognise Israel. Then everybody can get round the table and thrash out a deal. Would it really be that hard to do? Well for Hamas it seems so.
:(

Oh please Moscowmatt. :roll: Israel does'nt know how to extricate itself from the West Bank, without attempting to impose impossible conditions. Watch the debate and you'll see why.

What's that got to do with getting peace? It's time the Palestnians stopped squabbling over who has rights to land and came to the negotiation table. Who knows if they can keep the peace for say 5 years then maybe as a reward they could get some of it back?

The only prerequisites of negotiation should be a ceasefire not land handovers.

WTF? squabbling over land? are you mad? The Jews have Israel for themselves, why do the Jews squabble over the land themselves? Rewards? :lol: Only someone who's Jewish would say that. The only prerequisites of negotiation should be a ceasefire not land handovers? I agree with that, but after ceasefire what Israel is offering is a joke.
That's why I say you don't know what it takes for peace. You have'nt got a clue except to prolong bloodshed.
As I said watch the debate and you'll understand why.

You need some perspective, apart from your Israel does no wrong view. I once started a thread, in it I argued Palestinian terrorism is'nt conducive to peace, in fact it was a hindrance. But the main question in the thread was, "IS SETTLEMENT EXPANSION AND LAND ANNEXATION CONDUCIVE FOR PEACE" and do you know what? The usual pro-Israel supporters refused to answer a simple straight question like that. This time i'll make a poll of it and you'll see for yourself.
I was surprised and shocked at first, but then delusion is beyond my powers of control.

[MoscowMatt]

agentkgb wrote: MoscowMatt wrote: agentkgb wrote:
Like I said before, they might not be easy to see.


Spot the cluster bomb!!
They're not always lying in the open like that.
If they painted them with bright red paint with glow-in-the-dark stripes and dropped them all over the UK, would you be OK with that? Assuming that there was a terrorist group that resided in the UK?

There is!!!!...... Hmmmm cluster bomb Bradford!!! Now there's a thought!!! :lol:

[ALi*]

MoscowMatt wrote: agentkgb wrote:
Like I said before, they might not be easy to see.


Spot the cluster bomb!!



Damn can't see it anywhere!! :lol:
so the fact that u can see them is a reason u can use them?
90% of cluster bobms victims are children u criminals....

[MoscowMatt]

ALi* wrote: MoscowMatt wrote: agentkgb wrote:
Like I said before, they might not be easy to see.


Spot the cluster bomb!!



Damn can't see it anywhere!! :lol:
so the fact that u can see them is a reason u can use them?
90% of cluster bobms victims are children u criminals....

If they are so bad then why have they not been outlawed? I wonder how many of those 90% picked them up? A little education can go a long way!!

If the Israelis were as evil as some like to make out then they would have left behind some landmines when they pulled out.

[agentkgb]

MoscowMatt wrote: agentkgb wrote: MoscowMatt wrote: agentkgb wrote:
Like I said before, they might not be easy to see.


Spot the cluster bomb!!
They're not always lying in the open like that.
If they painted them with bright red paint with glow-in-the-dark stripes and dropped them all over the UK, would you be OK with that? Assuming that there was a terrorist group that resided in the UK?

There is!!!!...... Hmmmm cluster bomb Bradford!!! Now there's a thought!!! :lol:
You didn't answer my question.

[MoscowMatt]

agentkgb wrote: MoscowMatt wrote: agentkgb wrote: MoscowMatt wrote: agentkgb wrote:
Like I said before, they might not be easy to see.


Spot the cluster bomb!!
They're not always lying in the open like that.
If they painted them with bright red paint with glow-in-the-dark stripes and dropped them all over the UK, would you be OK with that? Assuming that there was a terrorist group that resided in the UK?

There is!!!!...... Hmmmm cluster bomb Bradford!!! Now there's a thought!!! :lol:
You didn't answer my question.

Yeah because how is it relevant to what happened in Lebanon? It is a bad analogy, so I'm not even going to waste my time answering it!!

I've a better question!! Why is it that only civilian deaths in the Middle East matter? ref:- total lack of concern regarding Sudan, Serbia...etc etc....

[agentkgb]

MoscowMatt wrote: Yeah because how is it relevant to what happened in Lebanon? It is a bad analogy, so I'm not even going to waste my time answering it!!
I'll make it easier for you. Would you find it acceptable? It's yes or no it will waste approximately a second of your time.

MoscowMatt wrote: I've a better question!! Why is it that only civilian deaths in the Middle East matter? ref:- total lack of concern regarding Sudan, Serbia...etc etc....
This is the Middle East forum. Here I post on topics regarding the Middle East.

[Saracen]

superskippy wrote: The claim being made was that these weapons are to horrendous to be used as they are widely incur deaths upon the civilian population and thus serve no other purpose. My point was to show that it is to the contrary and the wild claims about the bomblets are in fact overblown and on the way to final resolution.

There is no way that the cluster bombs brought about a ceasefire. If anything, it made matters worse.

Quote: We havent placed any landmines for decades and in the last "exchange" of prisoners Hezbollah also got extensive maps on some mine fields in South Lebanon that they had saught. As for your explinations for Hezbollah's attack perhaps you should inform them as the reason for their unprovoked attack was clear and it does not encompass any of the reasons you cite.

It does. The reasons being the reasons I cited. There is no proof that they received landmines. It's from these Israeli border tensions (i.e. the reasons I cited above) as well as the Shebaa Farms occupation that Hizbullah was provoked.

Quote: A barganing chip to regain some quadruple murderers and a piece of land that has never been Lebanese. Perhaps we should take some Jordanian prisoners as barganing chips for our obvious right and claim to their side of the Jordan Valley.

Doesn't fit. Shebaa Farms has Lebanese claim over it. Israel has no claim over the Eastern Jordan River, but then again, talking about other land disputes is not part of this topic. The issue here is Lebanon and Shebaa Farms.

Quote: I highly doubt that. Muslim terrorist attack stretch back decades and span several continents from the attacks in Tamal to the bombings in Indonesia and the hundreds of attacks in Chechnya. Even assuming every single attack that we have ever made that resulted in civilian fatality was considered terrorist we would pale in comparison to the number of attacks by muslim extremist groups who have without exaggeration at least ten thousand attacks to their name this century.

And the state actions against Muslims in these places? A terrorist action may be an evil action, but consider also the oppression of Chechen Muslims, the autocratic regimes in East Asia and, moreover, the Tamil Tigers who have terrorized Muslim populations among others. While I don't hold those terrorists blameless, others were no better.

Israeli terrorism has been prevalent, not only in the Occupied Territories. A missile struck an apartment building in Tunisia where Arafat was supposed to be; instead, it took the lives of over 100 innocents. Among other things, there is also the American Coalition and the autocratic regimes supported by the U.S. worldwide, that have caused this fierce backlash.

Quote: Reality politics is policy that is only undertaken by skilled statesmen and is a dangerous and hard path to follow it isnt a philisophy of the world by a long shot. The fact remains that there are non-political reasons for action and Islamic Extremists do have a core of purely religious reasons for many of their actions.

But that means that we seek to dismiss the chain of events that led to them committing these actions. In this case, the main causes are the American and Israeli occupations.

Quote: Gunfire killed more civilians in this war than cluster bombs, should bullets be restricted? These weapons were minimally lethal to civilians and provided maximum damage against Hezbollah and achieved a military goal. You yourself claim we live in a world of Realpolitik, or practical politics and in essence reality. War kills people. Much of the time those people are civilians and though actions can be taken to avoid it you there is a point you pass where restriction simply becomes a handicap.

War kills people, but it doesn't mean that there shouldn't be limitations. There's something called war ethic.

[superskippy]

Quote: There is no way that the cluster bombs brought about a ceasefire. If anything, it made matters worse.

I never said they did bring about a ceasefire but they did allow us to maximize damage against Hezbollah.

Quote: It does. The reasons being the reasons I cited. There is no proof that they received landmines. It's from these Israeli border tensions (i.e. the reasons I cited above) as well as the Shebaa Farms occupation that Hizbullah was provoked.

No proof that they received landmines? Well they have planted some minefields but I didnt think we were discussing that were we? As for Sheeba Farms as it isnt Lebanese occupied there is no legitimate Cassus Belli.

Quote: Doesn't fit. Shebaa Farms has Lebanese claim over it. Israel has no claim over the Eastern Jordan River, but then again, talking about other land disputes is not part of this topic. The issue here is Lebanon and Shebaa Farms.

Of course it fits, our claim to the Jordanian side of the Jordan Valley is just as strong as Lebanons claim to Sheeba Farms. And by just as strong I mean non-existant, Lebanon suddenly made their claim out of thin air in 2000 and if they can do that perhaps we should start a border war to regain the occupied territory of the Jordanian Occupied East Jordan Valley.

Quote: And the state actions against Muslims in these places? A terrorist action may be an evil action, but consider also the oppression of Chechen Muslims, the autocratic regimes in East Asia and, moreover, the Tamil Tigers who have terrorized Muslim populations among others. While I don't hold those terrorists blameless, others were no better

I find it very hard to place groups like the Tamil Tigers in good light even considering Government actions, it is simply to lopsided on a moral scale. As for Chechnya that is complicated on it's own.

[MoscowMatt]

agentkgb wrote: MoscowMatt wrote: Yeah because how is it relevant to what happened in Lebanon? It is a bad analogy, so I'm not even going to waste my time answering it!!
I'll make it easier for you. Would you find it acceptable? It's yes or no it will waste approximately a second of your time.

MoscowMatt wrote: I've a better question!! Why is it that only civilian deaths in the Middle East matter? ref:- total lack of concern regarding Sudan, Serbia...etc etc....
This is the Middle East forum. Here I post on topics regarding the Middle East.

Quote: Why is it that only civilian deaths in the Middle East matter?

Sounds like a Middle East related question to me.

And no I would not find it acceptable to cluster bomb Britain. But really what a ridiculous question because you ask this to make some point about cluster bombs in Lebanon. The political state of Britain is nothing like Lebanon.

If say Bradford formed a breakaway Muslim republic and then conducted a campaign of terror from it then I would say yes. But that's not about to happen now is it!!

[MoscowMatt]

agentkgb wrote: MoscowMatt wrote: Yeah because how is it relevant to what happened in Lebanon? It is a bad analogy, so I'm not even going to waste my time answering it!!
I'll make it easier for you. Would you find it acceptable? It's yes or no it will waste approximately a second of your time.

MoscowMatt wrote: I've a better question!! Why is it that only civilian deaths in the Middle East matter? ref:- total lack of concern regarding Sudan, Serbia...etc etc....
This is the Middle East forum. Here I post on topics regarding the Middle East.

[ALi*]

MoscowMatt wrote: ALi* wrote: MoscowMatt wrote: agentkgb wrote:
Like I said before, they might not be easy to see.


Spot the cluster bomb!!



Damn can't see it anywhere!! :lol:
so the fact that u can see them is a reason u can use them?
90% of cluster bobms victims are children u criminals....

If they are so bad then why have they not been outlawed? I wonder how many of those 90% picked them up? A little education can go a long way!!

If the Israelis were as evil as some like to make out then they would have left behind some landmines when they pulled out.
stop giving stupid explanations an excuses.... what does education have to do with this... they r kids!
as for the land mines? why? especially when u have cluster bombs....

what u r trying to say here is has no sense at all...
if hitler was so criminal and radical as some like to make out he would have lighten the gaz chambers instead of just letting the jews choke inside... :-| :!?:

[smo69]

Quote: if hitler was so criminal and radical as some like to make out he would have lighten the gaz chambers instead of just letting the jews choke inside...

I don't know about you, but gas chambers and burning people alive both seem pretty inhumane to me.

[Saracen]

superskippy wrote: I never said they did bring about a ceasefire but they did allow us to maximize damage against Hezbollah.

And civilians. Cluster bombs do NOT discriminate.

Quote: Of course it fits, our claim to the Jordanian side of the Jordan Valley is just as strong as Lebanons claim to Sheeba Farms. And by just as strong I mean non-existant, Lebanon suddenly made their claim out of thin air in 2000 and if they can do that perhaps we should start a border war to regain the occupied territory of the Jordanian Occupied East Jordan Valley.

I'm going to let the Lebanese guys here argue this one.

Quote: I find it very hard to place groups like the Tamil Tigers in good light even considering Government actions, it is simply to lopsided on a moral scale. As for Chechnya that is complicated on it's own.

And thus to say that Islamic extremism is prevalent because of lack of rationality is false. There's always political causes behind these things.

[prometeus]

ALi* wrote: if hitler was so criminal and radical as some like to make out he would have lighten the gaz chambers instead of just letting the jews choke inside... :-| :!?:

What an IDIOTIC statement.