Political Crossfire Forums

[slitedeviance]

MoscowMatt wrote: If these organisations only meant to target the IDF then I could feel some sympathy for their cause but they clearly do not!

Are you seriously arguing that the ends justify the means? That as long as Israel doesn't target civilians, it doesn't matter how many die?

I don't know...

A body is a body at the end of the day. If you think that the fact that they weren't deliberately targeted has any effect on whether or not their families will turn round and hate Israel for their deaths then you're completely misunderstanding the situation.

If the goal is to end conflict and work towards peace then the Knesset is heavily tripping if it thinks this can be acheived through these means. If the goal is nothing more than the survival of the Israeli state as a Jewish homeland, then you can't especially turn round and complain when people who have openly declared war with Israel kill Israeli civilians.[/i]

[agentkgb]

MoscowMatt wrote: Your view that Israel is pretty much always wrong is also tedious. Since it's creation Israel has had to deal with ATTACK after ATTACK so excuse me if they want to defend themselves. And boo hoo if a few civilians get caught up in it. That's war, live with it!!
What's your definition of "a few"?
MoscowMatt wrote: You pro Palestinian guys just cannot accept that 99% of Israeli soldiers DO NOT deliberately target civilians. Granted there are a few loose cannons as in any army. Of course when one comes along you jump on it and make out the whole IDF to be like it!
I haven't seen anyone say that the entire IDF targets civilians.

[MoscowMatt]

slitedeviance wrote: MoscowMatt wrote: If these organisations only meant to target the IDF then I could feel some sympathy for their cause but they clearly do not!

Are you seriously arguing that the ends justify the means? That as long as Israel doesn't target civilians, it doesn't matter how many die?

I don't know...

A body is a body at the end of the day. If you think that the fact that they weren't deliberately targeted has any effect on whether or not their families will turn round and hate Israel for their deaths then you're completely misunderstanding the situation.

If the goal is to end conflict and work towards peace then the Knesset is heavily tripping if it thinks this can be acheived through these means. If the goal is nothing more than the survival of the Israeli state as a Jewish homeland, then you can't especially turn round and complain when people who have openly declared war with Israel kill Israeli civilians.[/i]

Wasn't there a good chance for peace recently which surprise surprise HAMAS rejected because it meant recognising Israel!

The Palestinian people have done themselves no favours be electing a TERRORIST organisation to run their country. Why should I feel sympathy with people who condone terror!!

What do you expect Israel to do? They get intel that there are militants in a building do they send in soldiers? Don't you know that Urban fighting has a high casualty rate and favours the defender. Or do they call in an air strike. You expect Israel to sacrifice it's people for the sake of their enemy? No country would do that!!! You lot really need to get real and wake up to the reality of life however unpleasant you find it!

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: You should look at the daily Israeli incursions into the West Bank, the checkpoints, the sufferring that the Palestinians have to endure daily...

None of that would be happening if the Palestinians weren't completely irrational and impossible to deal with in any other way.

If they took those checkpoints down there would be a dozen bombings by the end of the day.

[agentkgb]

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: You should look at the daily Israeli incursions into the West Bank, the checkpoints, the sufferring that the Palestinians have to endure daily...

None of that would be happening if the Palestinians weren't completely irrational and impossible to deal with in any other way.

If they took those checkpoints down there would be a dozen bombings by the end of the day.
Most Palestinians don't bomb people. Also, it is quite possible that if Israel took those checkpoints down fewer people would want to bomb them.
If I blockaded your house for absolutely no reason, you might want to injure me, so therefore I would have to keep the blockade there to protect myself. It's not a perfect analogy, but I'm saying that if Israel didn't do what they do to Palestinians, Palestinians might not hate them so much.

[slitedeviance]

MoscowMatt wrote: Wasn't there a good chance for peace recently which surprise surprise HAMAS rejected because it meant recognising Israel!

I'm not too sure what you could be referring to with this one... unity government?

Quote: The Palestinian people have done themselves no favours be electing a TERRORIST organisation to run their country. Why should I feel sympathy with people who condone terror!!

This whole "elected a terrorist organisation" thing is getting really old, really really quickly. HAMAS were not elected on a mandate of continued terror, they were elected as the Palestinians got sick of a meaningless and corrupt organisation of bandits who had spent 40 odd years doing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to sort the situation out. They elected a party that has been the most active in social reforms, providing welfare and community support.

Quote: What do you expect Israel to do? They get intel that there are militants in a building do they send in soldiers? Don't you know that Urban fighting has a high casualty rate and favours the defender.

Yeah, no sh!t. However, the guys doing the fighting and paying the price should be the combatants not the civilians. If the IDF is too scared to commit is SOLDIERS to a fight and instead decides that inflicting CIVILIAN casualties is preferable then it really does bring into question their morality and courage.

Quote: You lot really need to get real and wake up to the reality of life however unpleasant you find it!

Number one, I'd be interested to see what your definiton of "You lot" is. Perhaps someone who understands multiple perspectives on a situation rather than being schooled in one track narrow minded arguments.

..and dude, I normally wouldn't say this (you caught me on a bad day), but if you think you have seen anything remotely close to the sh!t I've been out and seen maybe we can have a chat about it....otherwise stop this BS "You don't favour civilians dying? You must be a stupid weak pu**y".

[Plato & Socrates]

MoscowMatt wrote: Plato & Socrates wrote: The Comrade wrote: agentkgb wrote:
The fact that Hezbollah is still in existence proves that Israel tried to avoid civilian casualties? It might mean that Hezbollah is a guerrilla warfare group and it is difficult to destroy it.



here's how hezbollah could have been destroyed.

1)israel could have crossed the litani and started a full forcce ground invasion and occupation of lebanon. since lebanon s a small country it would not be hard to take control of the cities and monitor everything going on in the country
2)israel could have disregarded all the warnings of civilians in the area and slaughtered thousands of more people in order to get at the militants
3)israel could have not dropped leaflets telling people where they were bombing, and thus hezbollah would not have known where and when the attacks were coming from

since all three of those were avoided hezbollah is still active.

Your unbelieveable sometimes the comrade. If this is your assessment why Israel could'nt dismantle Hezbollah, then you have learnt nothing. Which is'nt surprising.

MoscowMatt wrote: agentkgb wrote: . I'm not about to blame Hezbollah for Israel killing civilians with cluster bombs that have a 30% failure rate.

FACT :- Hezbollah started the war.

FACT :- there would be no cluster bombs dropped on Lebanon if Hezbollah HAD NOT started the war.

FACT:- The war and it's consequences are therefore ultimatley Hezbollah's fault.

I know next time Israel should use paint bombs and anybody covered in paint is out of the game!!! The UN can mediate!! :roll: :roll:

MoscowMatt. :roll: If kidnappings are the criteria used for acts of war. Then How many times should Israel be accused of starting a war? Lets look at things has it stands now. What has Israel achieved since its Lebanon debacle? I'm so fed up with debating with you one way guys all the time. Why does it grieve you guys so much, to admit Israel does wrong? When all the evidence shows Israel is wrong, the defense of the indefensible will be mounted. Israel kills people on no evidence, and the IDF, puts out the standard briefing. "The IDF has killed 5 suspected militants" NO investigation, just the same old charge. How many of these deaths are just plain old murder? Yet I have yet to see ONCE on this forum, a pro-Israeli even question the rationale behind these deaths. Or in the circumstances they occur. So warped has some of the pro-Israeli thinking digressed to. That they attempt to defend the destruction of Lebanon, for two soldiers.

Now I would'nt argue so much, if Hezbollah or the Palestinians, only delved in kidnapping and the Israeli's didn't. But this isn't the case is it? Israel are the foremost exponents of kidnap, always justified by her defenders. The hypocrisy is mind-boggling. Where are the soldiers? Go on, blame everybody but yourself. :roll: The destruction of the Lebanese infrastructure and so many dead, and pro-Israeli's will say later on, "why do they hate us, we have done nothing to them, for them to hate us so much" Open your eyes boys, there are always two sides to a coin and story. Your one-sided view is getting a bit tedious.

Your view that Israel is pretty much always wrong is also tedious. Since it's creation Israel has had to deal with ATTACK after ATTACK so excuse me if they want to defend themselves. And boo hoo if a few civilians get caught up in it. That's war, live with it!! You pro Palestinian guys just cannot accept that 99% of Israeli soldiers DO NOT deliberately target civilians. Granted there are a few loose cannons as in any army. Of course when one comes along you jump on it and make out the whole IDF to be like it! Compare with the likes of Hamas and Hezbollah who deliberately target civilians and have no interest whatsoever in minimising their casualties. If these organisations only meant to target the IDF then I could feel some sympathy for their cause but they clearly do not!

Also when Hezbollah seized the soldiers I seem to remember they killed a few along the way as well. It was an act of war. What was Israel supposed to do in response? You guys constantly expect that Israel should just sit there and take it. :roll: :roll:

Unlike you I regualarly condemn Palestinian tactics, methods, ideology and intransigence. It's thinking like yours why this conflict is on going, and thats for people on both sides of this debate. People like you have no idea how to resolve this conflict, except with a myriad of contradictions, hypocrisy and double standards. Cue round 2876, ding ding, fight!

[ALi*]

lol i didnt know when i posted the topic it wouldve developped that fast... anyways

Quote: FACT :- Hezbollah started the war.
1st of all the word FACT applies to sumthing every1 agree on, as ive said it before.
hezbollah did not start the war... the conflict have been there forever but it was just calm before 12th of july. However in the real world israel is the one who started the war since it bombed civilian areas and killed some...
2nd of all... does it really matter who started the war? who didnt? the war is over....
consequences:
- israel didnt get anything but mockery and lost of respect through out the world.
- hezbollah/lebanon proved once again even tho small and weak lebanon is a GREAT country with its people its leaders and its RESISTANCE. (without mentionning the growing support for hezbollah after this war)


Quote: FACT :- there would be no cluster bombs dropped on Lebanon if Hezbollah HAD NOT started the war.
this is ridiculous.... this is as ridiculous as this:
there would be no holocaust if the jews werent trying to take control of germany. :P:P:P :D:D:D:D hahahahaah

Quote: FACT:- The war and it's consequences are therefore ultimatley Hezbollah's fault.
therefore?? ya after what i said before... u get the conclusion...

Quote: I know next time Israel should use paint bombs and anybody covered in paint is out of the game!!! The UN can mediate!! so u do know the un is unfair...?

[MoscowMatt]

slitedeviance wrote: MoscowMatt wrote: Wasn't there a good chance for peace recently which surprise surprise HAMAS rejected because it meant recognising Israel!

I'm not too sure what you could be referring to with this one... unity government?

Quote: The Palestinian people have done themselves no favours be electing a TERRORIST organisation to run their country. Why should I feel sympathy with people who condone terror!!

This whole "elected a terrorist organisation" thing is getting really old, really really quickly. HAMAS were not elected on a mandate of continued terror, they were elected as the Palestinians got sick of a meaningless and corrupt organisation of bandits who had spent 40 odd years doing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to sort the situation out. They elected a party that has been the most active in social reforms, providing welfare and community support.

Quote: What do you expect Israel to do? They get intel that there are militants in a building do they send in soldiers? Don't you know that Urban fighting has a high casualty rate and favours the defender.

Yeah, no sh!t. However, the guys doing the fighting and paying the price should be the combatants not the civilians. If the IDF is too scared to commit is SOLDIERS to a fight and instead decides that inflicting CIVILIAN casualties is preferable then it really does bring into question their morality and courage.

Quote: You lot really need to get real and wake up to the reality of life however unpleasant you find it!

Number one, I'd be interested to see what your definiton of "You lot" is. Perhaps someone who understands multiple perspectives on a situation rather than being schooled in one track narrow minded arguments.

..and dude, I normally wouldn't say this (you caught me on a bad day), but if you think you have seen anything remotely close to the sh!t I've been out and seen maybe we can have a chat about it....otherwise stop this BS "You don't favour civilians dying? You must be a stupid weak pu**y".


Ooooo personal abuse now.MY you are so good at this debating malarky to resort to that. Pathetic absolutley pathetic. Do me a favour and grow up and then come back and debate. :lol:

[MoscowMatt]

Plato & Socrates wrote: MoscowMatt wrote: Plato & Socrates wrote: The Comrade wrote: agentkgb wrote:
The fact that Hezbollah is still in existence proves that Israel tried to avoid civilian casualties? It might mean that Hezbollah is a guerrilla warfare group and it is difficult to destroy it.



here's how hezbollah could have been destroyed.

1)israel could have crossed the litani and started a full forcce ground invasion and occupation of lebanon. since lebanon s a small country it would not be hard to take control of the cities and monitor everything going on in the country
2)israel could have disregarded all the warnings of civilians in the area and slaughtered thousands of more people in order to get at the militants
3)israel could have not dropped leaflets telling people where they were bombing, and thus hezbollah would not have known where and when the attacks were coming from

since all three of those were avoided hezbollah is still active.

Your unbelieveable sometimes the comrade. If this is your assessment why Israel could'nt dismantle Hezbollah, then you have learnt nothing. Which is'nt surprising.

MoscowMatt wrote: agentkgb wrote: . I'm not about to blame Hezbollah for Israel killing civilians with cluster bombs that have a 30% failure rate.

FACT :- Hezbollah started the war.

FACT :- there would be no cluster bombs dropped on Lebanon if Hezbollah HAD NOT started the war.

FACT:- The war and it's consequences are therefore ultimatley Hezbollah's fault.

I know next time Israel should use paint bombs and anybody covered in paint is out of the game!!! The UN can mediate!! :roll: :roll:

MoscowMatt. :roll: If kidnappings are the criteria used for acts of war. Then How many times should Israel be accused of starting a war? Lets look at things has it stands now. What has Israel achieved since its Lebanon debacle? I'm so fed up with debating with you one way guys all the time. Why does it grieve you guys so much, to admit Israel does wrong? When all the evidence shows Israel is wrong, the defense of the indefensible will be mounted. Israel kills people on no evidence, and the IDF, puts out the standard briefing. "The IDF has killed 5 suspected militants" NO investigation, just the same old charge. How many of these deaths are just plain old murder? Yet I have yet to see ONCE on this forum, a pro-Israeli even question the rationale behind these deaths. Or in the circumstances they occur. So warped has some of the pro-Israeli thinking digressed to. That they attempt to defend the destruction of Lebanon, for two soldiers.

Now I would'nt argue so much, if Hezbollah or the Palestinians, only delved in kidnapping and the Israeli's didn't. But this isn't the case is it? Israel are the foremost exponents of kidnap, always justified by her defenders. The hypocrisy is mind-boggling. Where are the soldiers? Go on, blame everybody but yourself. :roll: The destruction of the Lebanese infrastructure and so many dead, and pro-Israeli's will say later on, "why do they hate us, we have done nothing to them, for them to hate us so much" Open your eyes boys, there are always two sides to a coin and story. Your one-sided view is getting a bit tedious.

Your view that Israel is pretty much always wrong is also tedious. Since it's creation Israel has had to deal with ATTACK after ATTACK so excuse me if they want to defend themselves. And boo hoo if a few civilians get caught up in it. That's war, live with it!! You pro Palestinian guys just cannot accept that 99% of Israeli soldiers DO NOT deliberately target civilians. Granted there are a few loose cannons as in any army. Of course when one comes along you jump on it and make out the whole IDF to be like it! Compare with the likes of Hamas and Hezbollah who deliberately target civilians and have no interest whatsoever in minimising their casualties. If these organisations only meant to target the IDF then I could feel some sympathy for their cause but they clearly do not!

Also when Hezbollah seized the soldiers I seem to remember they killed a few along the way as well. It was an act of war. What was Israel supposed to do in response? You guys constantly expect that Israel should just sit there and take it. :roll: :roll:

Unlike you I regualarly condemn Palestinian tactics, methods, ideology and intransigence. It's thinking like yours why this conflict is on going, and thats for people on both sides of this debate. People like you have no idea how to resolve this conflict, except with a myriad of contradictions, hypocrisy and double standards. Cue round 2876, ding ding, fight!

The key to resolving the conflict is there for all to see. The likes of Hamas stop violence and recognise Israel. Then everybody can get round the table and thrash out a deal. Would it really be that hard to do? Well for Hamas it seems so.
:(

[MoscowMatt]

ALi* wrote: lol i didnt know when i posted the topic it wouldve developped that fast... anyways

Quote: FACT :- Hezbollah started the war.
1st of all the word FACT applies to sumthing every1 agree on, as ive said it before.
hezbollah did not start the war... the conflict have been there forever but it was just calm before 12th of july. However in the real world israel is the one who started the war since it bombed civilian areas and killed some...
2nd of all... does it really matter who started the war? who didnt? the war is over....
consequences:
- israel didnt get anything but mockery and lost of respect through out the world.
- hezbollah/lebanon proved once again even tho small and weak lebanon is a GREAT country with its people its leaders and its RESISTANCE. (without mentionning the growing support for hezbollah after this war)


Quote: FACT :- there would be no cluster bombs dropped on Lebanon if Hezbollah HAD NOT started the war.
this is ridiculous.... this is as ridiculous as this:
there would be no holocaust if the jews werent trying to take control of germany. :P:P:P :D:D:D:D hahahahaah

Quote: FACT:- The war and it's consequences are therefore ultimatley Hezbollah's fault.
therefore?? ya after what i said before... u get the conclusion...

Quote: I know next time Israel should use paint bombs and anybody covered in paint is out of the game!!! The UN can mediate!! so u do know the un is unfair...?

Yes Hezbollah DID start the war. Look before they launched their little raid on Israel there was peace for a good number of years. Then all of a sudden there's war which WOULD NOT have happened but for that Hezbollah raid. Nearly all the world acknowledges that Hezbollah started the war. Further more cluster bombs are not a banned weapon so there use is irrelevant. All bombs kill. I fail to see how one type can be deemed more immoral than another!!

The war is over ONLY because the UN stepped in. Had it been left to run it's course then Lebanon would have been badly beaten!!

[agentkgb]

MoscowMatt wrote: Yes Hezbollah DID start the war. Look before they launched their little raid on Israel there was peace for a good number of years. Then all of a sudden there's war which WOULD NOT have happened but for that Hezbollah raid. Nearly all the world acknowledges that Hezbollah started the war. Further more cluster bombs are not a banned weapon so there use is irrelevant.
The use of hunting weapons isn't illegal either, but if I killed some random person with one I don't think it would really matter to the courts what I killed him with, I'd be jailed anyway.
MoscowMatt wrote: All bombs kill. I fail to see how one type can be deemed more immoral than another!!
Cluster bombs are far more likely to kill civilians, especially old ones with the failure rates of those in Lebanon.

[Plato & Socrates]

MoscowMatt wrote:

The key to resolving the conflict is there for all to see. The likes of Hamas stop violence and recognise Israel. Then everybody can get round the table and thrash out a deal. Would it really be that hard to do? Well for Hamas it seems so.
:(

Oh please Moscowmatt. :roll: Israel does'nt know how to extricate itself from the West Bank, without attempting to impose impossible conditions. Watch the debate and you'll see why.

[MoscowMatt]

Plato & Socrates wrote: MoscowMatt wrote:

The key to resolving the conflict is there for all to see. The likes of Hamas stop violence and recognise Israel. Then everybody can get round the table and thrash out a deal. Would it really be that hard to do? Well for Hamas it seems so.
:(

Oh please Moscowmatt. :roll: Israel does'nt know how to extricate itself from the West Bank, without attempting to impose impossible conditions. Watch the debate and you'll see why.

What's that got to do with getting peace? It's time the Palestnians stopped squabbling over who has rights to land and came to the negotiation table. Who knows if they can keep the peace for say 5 years then maybe as a reward they could get some of it back?

The only prerequisites of negotiation should be a ceasefire not land handovers.

[MoscowMatt]

agentkgb wrote: The use of hunting weapons isn't illegal either, but if I killed some random person with one I don't think it would really matter to the courts what I killed him with, I'd be jailed anyway.


That's a poor analogy as if you are in the military then in a war you kind of have a license to kill whereas an individual with hunting weapons is a totally different scenario and not really relevant to the cluster bomb issue.

[MoscowMatt]

Further to the whole cluster bomb issue I think the only really evil weapon is the landmine. Did Israel plant a load of those in Lebanon??

[agentkgb]

MoscowMatt wrote: Further to the whole cluster bomb issue I think the only really evil weapon is the landmine. Did Israel plant a load of those in Lebanon??
They have very similar effects. There are gazillions of unexploded bombs out there.

[agentkgb]

MoscowMatt wrote: agentkgb wrote: The use of hunting weapons isn't illegal either, but if I killed some random person with one I don't think it would really matter to the courts what I killed him with, I'd be jailed anyway.


That's a poor analogy as if you are in the military then in a war you kind of have a license to kill whereas an individual with hunting weapons is a totally different scenario and not really relevant to the cluster bomb issue.
There's no reason that license to kill should extend to civilians.

[superskippy]

Quote: I repeat, hizbullah has only officially declared war on zionism, and not on the whole jewish community. Cap´n I don´t care how many sources you can get that have analyzed, or disected hizbullah anti-jewish nature to publish on paper; point is, they haven´t declared war on the religion.

Hezbollah has engaged in a war that includes striking at any target it can to do damage to Israel including bombing Jewish community centers abroad, embassies, and planes. Hezbollah doesnt have to be a Nazi value based organization to be evil, and drawing the distinction that they are "Only at war with zionism" is irrelivent and fairly impossible. They have undertaken horrendous terrorist attacks in nations spanning 3 continents.

Quote: Cluster bombs are far more likely to kill civilians, especially old ones with the failure rates of those in Lebanon.

Cluster bombs have killed less civilians in Lebanon than any other type of munition expended, so far these unexploded bomblets which is the bone of contention with them have killed 11-12 people.

Quote: They have very similar effects. There are gazillions of unexploded bombs out there.

Not "gazillions" and 100,000 have been cleared away already.

[MoscowMatt]

agentkgb wrote: MoscowMatt wrote: Further to the whole cluster bomb issue I think the only really evil weapon is the landmine. Did Israel plant a load of those in Lebanon??
They have very similar effects. There are gazillions of unexploded bombs out there.

You can see a cluster bomb though, most are painted bright colours as well. Honestly if you are stupid enough to pick one up..... Oh and before I get the predictable response when I was about 5 years old I walked round a Middle East village which still had unexploded ordinance. I was made fully aware the risks and knew full well not to pick anything up!