Political Crossfire Forums

[MoscowMatt]

agentkgb wrote: Being at war isn't an excuse for completely disregarding the lives of civilians.

Well if Hezbollah had not provoked Israel with an act of war..... You want someone to blaim then you need to be knocking on their door!

[cap'n queasy]

If Hezbollah wouldn't have started the conflict in the first place there never would have been any need for aid vehicles or evacuations.

So you can lay any blame for what happened after than at their feet. They caused it. It is exceedingly unreasonaable to expect someone who is being attacked to worry more about aiding the people who attacked them, than defending themselves.

[agentkgb]

cap'n queasy wrote: If Hezbollah wouldn't have started the conflict in the first place there never would have been any need for aid vehicles or evacuations.

So you can lay any blame for what happened after than at their feet. They caused it. It is exceedingly unreasonaable to expect someone who is being attacked to worry more about aiding the people who attacked them, than defending themselves.
The civilians didn't attack them. It's not like Israel is some weak nation we should feel sorry for that can barely defend itself.

[agentkgb]

MoscowMatt wrote: agentkgb wrote: Being at war isn't an excuse for completely disregarding the lives of civilians.

Well if Hezbollah had not provoked Israel with an act of war..... You want someone to blaim then you need to be knocking on their door!
Again, Israel could have conducted the war in a different way. Cluster bombs weren't necessary. You still didn't really respond to the point of the post you quoted. You can't excuse things just by saying that they were at war so it's okay. I'm not about to blame Hezbollah for Israel killing civilians with cluster bombs that have a 30% failure rate.

[The Comrade]

agentkgb wrote:
Again, Israel could have conducted the war in a different way. Cluster bombs weren't necessary. You still didn't really respond to the point of the post you quoted. You can't excuse things just by saying that they were at war so it's okay. I'm not about to blame Hezbollah for Israel killing civilians with cluster bombs that have a 30% failure rate.


agent get a reality check.


israel didn't drop cluster bombs IN ORDER TO KILL CIVILIANS. they were meant to explode, they didn't, move on. that's as far as it goes.

there isn't some lame conspiracy.

And you're right. israel could have conducted the war differently. they could have wiped out hezbollah at the expense of tens of thousands of lebanonese lives.

[agentkgb]

The Comrade wrote: agentkgb wrote:
Again, Israel could have conducted the war in a different way. Cluster bombs weren't necessary. You still didn't really respond to the point of the post you quoted. You can't excuse things just by saying that they were at war so it's okay. I'm not about to blame Hezbollah for Israel killing civilians with cluster bombs that have a 30% failure rate.


agent get a reality check.


israel didn't drop cluster bombs IN ORDER TO KILL CIVILIANS. they were meant to explode, they didn't, move on. that's as far as it goes.

there isn't some lame conspiracy.

And you're right. israel could have conducted the war differently. they could have wiped out hezbollah at the expense of tens of thousands of lebanonese lives.
I actually made a point of saying that I didn't believe that Israel tried to kill civilians upthread.
All I've been trying to say is that Israel didn't do enough to prevent civilians deaths.

[cap'n queasy]

agentkgb wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: If Hezbollah wouldn't have started the conflict in the first place there never would have been any need for aid vehicles or evacuations.

So you can lay any blame for what happened after than at their feet. They caused it. It is exceedingly unreasonaable to expect someone who is being attacked to worry more about aiding the people who attacked them, than defending themselves.
The civilians didn't attack them. It's not like Israel is some weak nation we should feel sorry for that can barely defend itself.

Part of the Lebanese government attacked them. That makes Lebanese civilians targets whether they support the attacks or not. Israel used a lot more restraint, because of their knowledge of the situation there, than anyone else would have used.

Plus, if Muslim terrorist operatives did not look exactly like the civilians it would be easier to tell the difference in battle. Instead they try to blend into the population so they can attack Israel and then blame them because civilians get killed.

It is simply ridiculous to defend such activities.

[agentkgb]

cap'n queasy wrote: agentkgb wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: If Hezbollah wouldn't have started the conflict in the first place there never would have been any need for aid vehicles or evacuations.

So you can lay any blame for what happened after than at their feet. They caused it. It is exceedingly unreasonaable to expect someone who is being attacked to worry more about aiding the people who attacked them, than defending themselves.
The civilians didn't attack them. It's not like Israel is some weak nation we should feel sorry for that can barely defend itself.

Part of the Lebanese government attacked them. That makes Lebanese civilians targets whether they support the attacks or not. Israel used a lot more restraint, because of their knowledge of the situation there, than anyone else would have used.

Plus, if Muslim terrorist operatives did not look exactly like the civilians it would be easier to tell the difference in battle. Instead they try to blend into the population so they can attack Israel and then blame them because civilians get killed.

It is simply ridiculous to defend such activities.
I'm definitely not defending Hezbollah's activities. I would question the idea that there is no other nation that would have used more restraint than Israel did, though.

[MoscowMatt]

agentkgb wrote: . I'm not about to blame Hezbollah for Israel killing civilians with cluster bombs that have a 30% failure rate.

FACT :- Hezbollah started the war.

FACT :- there would be no cluster bombs dropped on Lebanon if Hezbollah HAD NOT started the war.

FACT:- The war and it's consequences are therefore ultimatley Hezbollah's fault.

I know next time Israel should use paint bombs and anybody covered in paint is out of the game!!! The UN can mediate!! :roll: :roll:

[agentkgb]

MoscowMatt wrote: agentkgb wrote: . I'm not about to blame Hezbollah for Israel killing civilians with cluster bombs that have a 30% failure rate.

FACT :- Hezbollah started the war.
The Lebanese civilians did not.
MoscowMatt wrote: FACT :- there would be no cluster bombs dropped on Lebanon if Hezbollah HAD NOT started the war.
There would not have been cluster bombs dropped on Lebanese if Israel hadn't dropped them.
MoscowMatt wrote: FACT:- The war and it's consequences are therefore ultimatley Hezbollah's fault.
agentkgb wrote: I'm not about to blame Hezbollah for Israel killing civilians with cluster bombs that have a 30% failure rate.

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: The Lebanese civilians did not. They elected Hezboolah as part of their government and they harbored them.

When you lay down with dogs you wake up with fleas.

[Saracen]

cap'n queasy wrote: They elected Hezboolah as part of their government and they harbored them.

When you lay down with dogs you wake up with fleas.

Israel has no moral superiority to dictate who others should elect. Hizbullah's actions were not sponateous. Israel provoked Hizbullah into attacking those soldiers and capturing two of them.

And I can't believe that you still hold the ENTIRE Lebanese populace for what Hizbullah has done. They did not "elect" Hizbullah. They support Hizbullah because Hizbullah, if anything, resisted and attacked the invading Israeli army.

Quote: You say this, yet below your name you say you are a Lebanese national socialist.... Strange.

Attack the issue, not the debator.

Quote: It's the attacks on Jews by Muslim extremists that is the biggest tip-off that they are basically nothing other than Nazis.

No, they're not. Nazis believe they're racially superior. Muslim extremists hold no such belief. Also, the Nazis attacked Jews senselessly and sent them to concentration camps, and committed crimes against humanity. The "Muslim" extremists you speak of did no such thing.

MoscowMatt wrote: Why the hell should they?? In WWII did we flatten Dresden and then the next day parachute in aid!!!! What the hell is the world coming to?!!!! Did Hezbollah send aid to Israeli citizens? Israel had NO obligation whatsoever to help. Yeah they send in medicine and hezbollah seize it for their injured combatants. My what a great idea!!!

Ever heard of something called justice? I doubt it.

[lilwolf]

I am aware of how long the seig heil hand salute has been around however the Nazis were evil and it representwhat they were and it still represents evil in this day and ....well Hezbollah has it down to an exact art and science and to me they are just as evil and have not made it to the same scale and level as the nazis but if they are not destroyed they will.

Seem to me if it walks, and quacks like a duck ...it must be a duck :roll:

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: Also, the Nazis attacked Jews senselessly and sent them to concentration camps, and committed crimes against humanity. The "Muslim" extremists you speak of did no such thing.


Muslim extremists attack Jews senselessly all the time. The only reason they don't have concentration camps is they don't have the means to do it yet.

Nazis didn't have concentration camps, either, until they achieved their empire of conquered nations and all the power that comes with that. Before that time they contented themselves with terrorist attacks and conspiracy theories against Jews (and others) just like Islamic radicals do today. I'm pretty sure if these radicals are not stopped they will do the exact same thing when they control their own empire.

They are obviously headed down the same road.

[superskippy]

Quote: Again, Israel could have conducted the war in a different way. Cluster bombs weren't necessary.

No they werent necessary, but they were militarily beneficial allowing us to maximize our damage and area coverage in the few days expected to be remaining to us to freely engage Hezbollah.

Quote: You can't excuse things just by saying that they were at war so it's okay.

I would widely assume using weapons during war is porbably the only excuse required. These cluster bombs are not civilian killing death machines, in several weeks they have claimed a grand total of 12 lives and 100,000 of the bomblets have been cleared away with relative ease.

Quote: Israel has no moral superiority to dictate who others should elect. Hizbullah's actions were not sponateous. Israel provoked Hizbullah into attacking those soldiers and capturing two of them.

We dont need to dictate who they elect, but who they elect is an enormous modifier on how we will treat with them. We have every right to react harshly against such an enemy being drawn into government.

As for provoking the war thats just silly, and I know it sounds better when you say that it was an attack in which two soldiers were captured. But the reality is the Hezbollah border attack killed 8 soldiers, wounded 15 soldiers, and wounded 12 civilians, as well as capturing 2 soldiers and most likely their death.

Quote: No, they're not. Nazis believe they're racially superior. Muslim extremists hold no such belief. Also, the Nazis attacked Jews senselessly and sent them to concentration camps, and committed crimes against humanity. The "Muslim" extremists you speak of did no such thing.

Muslim extremists hold different types of self superiority and have made strings of senseless attacks against Jews both in Israel and broad with a very high body count to their name.

[Saracen]

lilwolf wrote: Seem to me if it walks, and quacks like a duck ...it must be a duck

The people holding the flags with the cedar trees surrounded by red rings are supporters of the anti-Hizbullah, anti-(united Lebanon), pro-Israel Phalange/Kataeb party. If anything, they are fascists, and have openly claimed themselves to be so.

cap'n queasy wrote: Muslim extremists attack Jews senselessly all the time. The only reason they don't have concentration camps is they don't have the means to do it yet.

All the time? You should look at the daily Israeli incursions into the West Bank, the checkpoints, the sufferring that the Palestinians have to endure daily... And you bring up a blank claim like this? Seriously.

Quote: Nazis didn't have concentration camps, either, until they achieved their empire of conquered nations and all the power that comes with that. Before that time they contented themselves with terrorist attacks and conspiracy theories against Jews (and others) just like Islamic radicals do today. I'm pretty sure if these radicals are not stopped they will do the exact same thing when they control their own empire.

They are obviously headed down the same road.

I highly doubt it: even these radicals, regardless of the "Nazi salute" that they show, are not against Jews because they're Jews, but are against Zionists because of Israel. This isn't in defense of their actions, or what they seemingly stand for, but they're not the evil ones you make them out to be.

The road they're headed down to is not the same road the Nazis took: while they have been occassionally suicide bombing, etc., they have not done something tantamount to vile persecution and nothing that can be equated with the Nazis.

And nice pic, lilwolf: these university students do a salute similar to that of both the U.S. and the Nazis: they raise their hands on their foreheads, then extend them. Also, the soldiers in the pic are walking, strutting their arms back and forth. They're not extending the Nazi salute.

superskippy wrote: I would widely assume using weapons during war is porbably the only excuse required. These cluster bombs are not civilian killing death machines, in several weeks they have claimed a grand total of 12 lives and 100,000 of the bomblets have been cleared away with relative ease.

Whether they are 12 lives or 120 makes no difference. I've shown considerable sympathy towards the thousand+ Israeli deaths since the beginning of the intifada, and no one gives a !@#$ing damn about the more than 5,000 dead Palestinians and Lebanese. They're the same.

Quote: We dont need to dictate who they elect, but who they elect is an enormous modifier on how we will treat with them. We have every right to react harshly against such an enemy being drawn into government.

As for provoking the war thats just silly, and I know it sounds better when you say that it was an attack in which two soldiers were captured. But the reality is the Hezbollah border attack killed 8 soldiers, wounded 15 soldiers, and wounded 12 civilians, as well as capturing 2 soldiers and most likely their death.

No. Israel's sufficient provocations by violating the borders, and placing these land mines, etc., along with the merciless Gaza offensive that is claiming lives day by day, I'd say that two captured soldiers is a bargaining chip. If Israel's government/army doesn't look at its own actions, we will keep seeing an Israel that just relents and persists on attacking and shelling, and so forth.

Quote: Muslim extremists hold different types of self superiority and have made strings of senseless attacks against Jews both in Israel and broad with a very high body count to their name.

I can cite the same number of incidents of Israeli terrorism both in Palestine and abroad against Palestinian politicians and innocents alike. There is no consideration of "superiority" here. This is not World War II anymore. This is realpolitik, and in realpolitik, everything happens due to a political reason, not a religious or racial one.

Quote: No they werent necessary, but they were militarily beneficial allowing us to maximize our damage and area coverage in the few days expected to be remaining to us to freely engage Hezbollah.

Maximizing damage and area coverage is not a valid excuse to use them, because that means killing more innocents and producing more property damage.

And the pretext of war is not a justification to commit atrocity.

[superskippy]

Quote: Whether they are 12 lives or 120 makes no difference. I've shown considerable sympathy towards the thousand+ Israeli deaths since the beginning of the intifada, and no one gives a !@#$ing damn about the more than 5,000 dead Palestinians and Lebanese. They're the same.

The claim being made was that these weapons are to horrendous to be used as they are widely incur deaths upon the civilian population and thus serve no other purpose. My point was to show that it is to the contrary and the wild claims about the bomblets are in fact overblown and on the way to final resolution.

Quote: No. Israel's sufficient provocations by violating the borders, and placing these land mines, etc., along with the merciless Gaza offensive that is claiming lives day by day,

We havent placed any landmines for decades and in the last "exchange" of prisoners Hezbollah also got extensive maps on some mine fields in South Lebanon that they had saught. As for your explinations for Hezbollah's attack perhaps you should inform them as the reason for their unprovoked attack was clear and it does not encompass any of the reasons you cite.

Quote: I'd say that two captured soldiers is a bargaining chip. If Israel's government/army doesn't look at its own actions, we will keep seeing an Israel that just relents and persists on attacking and shelling, and so forth.

A barganing chip to regain some quadruple murderers and a piece of land that has never been Lebanese. Perhaps we should take some Jordanian prisoners as barganing chips for our obvious right and claim to their side of the Jordan Valley.

Quote: I can cite the same number of incidents of Israeli terrorism both in Palestine and abroad against Palestinian politicians and innocents alike.

I highly doubt that. Muslim terrorist attack stretch back decades and span several continents from the attacks in Tamal to the bombings in Indonesia and the hundreds of attacks in Chechnya. Even assuming every single attack that we have ever made that resulted in civilian fatality was considered terrorist we would pale in comparison to the number of attacks by muslim extremist groups who have without exaggeration at least ten thousand attacks to their name this century.

Quote: This is realpolitik, and in realpolitik, everything happens due to a political reason, not a religious or racial one.

Reality politics is policy that is only undertaken by skilled statesmen and is a dangerous and hard path to follow it isnt a philisophy of the world by a long shot. The fact remains that there are non-political reasons for action and Islamic Extremists do have a core of purely religious reasons for many of their actions.

Quote: Maximizing damage and area coverage is not a valid excuse to use them, because that means killing more innocents and producing more property damage.

Gunfire killed more civilians in this war than cluster bombs, should bullets be restricted? These weapons were minimally lethal to civilians and provided maximum damage against Hezbollah and achieved a military goal. You yourself claim we live in a world of Realpolitik, or practical politics and in essence reality. War kills people. Much of the time those people are civilians and though actions can be taken to avoid it you there is a point you pass where restriction simply becomes a handicap.

[Plato & Socrates]

The Comrade wrote: agentkgb wrote:
The fact that Hezbollah is still in existence proves that Israel tried to avoid civilian casualties? It might mean that Hezbollah is a guerrilla warfare group and it is difficult to destroy it.



here's how hezbollah could have been destroyed.

1)israel could have crossed the litani and started a full forcce ground invasion and occupation of lebanon. since lebanon s a small country it would not be hard to take control of the cities and monitor everything going on in the country
2)israel could have disregarded all the warnings of civilians in the area and slaughtered thousands of more people in order to get at the militants
3)israel could have not dropped leaflets telling people where they were bombing, and thus hezbollah would not have known where and when the attacks were coming from

since all three of those were avoided hezbollah is still active.

Your unbelieveable sometimes the comrade. If this is your assessment why Israel could'nt dismantle Hezbollah, then you have learnt nothing. Which is'nt surprising.

MoscowMatt wrote: agentkgb wrote: . I'm not about to blame Hezbollah for Israel killing civilians with cluster bombs that have a 30% failure rate.

FACT :- Hezbollah started the war.

FACT :- there would be no cluster bombs dropped on Lebanon if Hezbollah HAD NOT started the war.

FACT:- The war and it's consequences are therefore ultimatley Hezbollah's fault.

I know next time Israel should use paint bombs and anybody covered in paint is out of the game!!! The UN can mediate!! :roll: :roll:

MoscowMatt. :roll: If kidnappings are the criteria used for acts of war. Then How many times should Israel be accused of starting a war? Lets look at things has it stands now. What has Israel achieved since its Lebanon debacle? I'm so fed up with debating with you one way guys all the time. Why does it grieve you guys so much, to admit Israel does wrong? When all the evidence shows Israel is wrong, the defense of the indefensible will be mounted. Israel kills people on no evidence, and the IDF, puts out the standard briefing. "The IDF has killed 5 suspected militants" NO investigation, just the same old charge. How many of these deaths are just plain old murder? Yet I have yet to see ONCE on this forum, a pro-Israeli even question the rationale behind these deaths. Or in the circumstances they occur. So warped has some of the pro-Israeli thinking digressed to. That they attempt to defend the destruction of Lebanon, for two soldiers.

Now I would'nt argue so much, if Hezbollah or the Palestinians, only delved in kidnapping and the Israeli's didn't. But this isn't the case is it? Israel are the foremost exponents of kidnap, always justified by her defenders. The hypocrisy is mind-boggling. Where are the soldiers? Go on, blame everybody but yourself. :roll: The destruction of the Lebanese infrastructure and so many dead, and pro-Israeli's will say later on, "why do they hate us, we have done nothing to them, for them to hate us so much" Open your eyes boys, there are always two sides to a coin and story. Your one-sided view is getting a bit tedious.

[nrhy]

cap'n queasy wrote: nrhy wrote: The Comrade wrote: lilwolf wrote: Looks to me that hezbollah are the ones with Nazi type mentality. They even have it down to the salute.... :lol: :lol: :lol:



sieg heil!

yeah um...the salute has been used by armies that existed before and after the nazi times. Hizbullah´s sworn enemy is israel and not the jews.

You say this, yet below your name you say you are a Lebanese national socialist.... Strange.

It's the attacks on Jews by Muslim extremists that is the biggest tip-off that they are basically nothing other than Nazis.

Yes, strange indeed, I am not a nazi sympathizer, nor a hating jew. My politics are similar to those of kamal jumblat when he established the lebanese national socialist party. :roll: Don´t start cap´n

I repeat, hizbullah has only officially declared war on zionism, and not on the whole jewish community. Cap´n I don´t care how many sources you can get that have analyzed, or disected hizbullah anti-jewish nature to publish on paper; point is, they haven´t declared war on the religion.

[MoscowMatt]

Plato & Socrates wrote: The Comrade wrote: agentkgb wrote:
The fact that Hezbollah is still in existence proves that Israel tried to avoid civilian casualties? It might mean that Hezbollah is a guerrilla warfare group and it is difficult to destroy it.



here's how hezbollah could have been destroyed.

1)israel could have crossed the litani and started a full forcce ground invasion and occupation of lebanon. since lebanon s a small country it would not be hard to take control of the cities and monitor everything going on in the country
2)israel could have disregarded all the warnings of civilians in the area and slaughtered thousands of more people in order to get at the militants
3)israel could have not dropped leaflets telling people where they were bombing, and thus hezbollah would not have known where and when the attacks were coming from

since all three of those were avoided hezbollah is still active.

Your unbelieveable sometimes the comrade. If this is your assessment why Israel could'nt dismantle Hezbollah, then you have learnt nothing. Which is'nt surprising.

MoscowMatt wrote: agentkgb wrote: . I'm not about to blame Hezbollah for Israel killing civilians with cluster bombs that have a 30% failure rate.

FACT :- Hezbollah started the war.

FACT :- there would be no cluster bombs dropped on Lebanon if Hezbollah HAD NOT started the war.

FACT:- The war and it's consequences are therefore ultimatley Hezbollah's fault.

I know next time Israel should use paint bombs and anybody covered in paint is out of the game!!! The UN can mediate!! :roll: :roll:

MoscowMatt. :roll: If kidnappings are the criteria used for acts of war. Then How many times should Israel be accused of starting a war? Lets look at things has it stands now. What has Israel achieved since its Lebanon debacle? I'm so fed up with debating with you one way guys all the time. Why does it grieve you guys so much, to admit Israel does wrong? When all the evidence shows Israel is wrong, the defense of the indefensible will be mounted. Israel kills people on no evidence, and the IDF, puts out the standard briefing. "The IDF has killed 5 suspected militants" NO investigation, just the same old charge. How many of these deaths are just plain old murder? Yet I have yet to see ONCE on this forum, a pro-Israeli even question the rationale behind these deaths. Or in the circumstances they occur. So warped has some of the pro-Israeli thinking digressed to. That they attempt to defend the destruction of Lebanon, for two soldiers.

Now I would'nt argue so much, if Hezbollah or the Palestinians, only delved in kidnapping and the Israeli's didn't. But this isn't the case is it? Israel are the foremost exponents of kidnap, always justified by her defenders. The hypocrisy is mind-boggling. Where are the soldiers? Go on, blame everybody but yourself. :roll: The destruction of the Lebanese infrastructure and so many dead, and pro-Israeli's will say later on, "why do they hate us, we have done nothing to them, for them to hate us so much" Open your eyes boys, there are always two sides to a coin and story. Your one-sided view is getting a bit tedious.

Your view that Israel is pretty much always wrong is also tedious. Since it's creation Israel has had to deal with ATTACK after ATTACK so excuse me if they want to defend themselves. And boo hoo if a few civilians get caught up in it. That's war, live with it!! You pro Palestinian guys just cannot accept that 99% of Israeli soldiers DO NOT deliberately target civilians. Granted there are a few loose cannons as in any army. Of course when one comes along you jump on it and make out the whole IDF to be like it! Compare with the likes of Hamas and Hezbollah who deliberately target civilians and have no interest whatsoever in minimising their casualties. If these organisations only meant to target the IDF then I could feel some sympathy for their cause but they clearly do not!

Also when Hezbollah seized the soldiers I seem to remember they killed a few along the way as well. It was an act of war. What was Israel supposed to do in response? You guys constantly expect that Israel should just sit there and take it. :roll: :roll: