Political Crossfire Forums

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 7442 Location: Petah Tikva

Quote: And civilians. Cluster bombs do NOT discriminate.

No weapons do, what matters is where you target them.

Quote: I'm going to let the Lebanese guys here argue this one.

I have found reluctance on their part to do so, Ali for example simply claims that Lebanon has documents that support the claim. None are forthecoming.

Quote: And thus to say that Islamic extremism is prevalent because of lack of rationality is false. There's always political causes behind these things.

Most of the time but I would not say always, and religion is still a major factor mixed with any political cause.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 15233 Location: On Earth

superskippy wrote: No weapons do, what matters is where you target them.

Some weapons by default don't, even when you target them. Cluster bombs are one.

Quote: Most of the time but I would not say always, and religion is still a major factor mixed with any political cause.

Not entirely. Islam is against all the violence and extremism, but using Islam as a tool is what makes it difficult for people to understand.

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 7442 Location: Petah Tikva

Quote: Some weapons by default don't, even when you target them. Cluster bombs are one.

It depends on where you target them like any weapon.

Quote: Not entirely. Islam is against all the violence and extremism, but using Islam as a tool is what makes it difficult for people to understand.

Fair enough.

agentkgb · Joined: 23 Aug 2006 Posts: 2241 Location: US

MoscowMatt wrote: Quote: Why is it that only civilian deaths in the Middle East matter?

Sounds like a Middle East related question to me.
I didn't say it wasn't. I also didn't say that only civilian deaths in the Middle East matter. I meant that I don't post here regarding civilian deaths outside the Middle East, because that wouldn't make sense to do in the Middle East forum.

MoscowMatt wrote: And no I would not find it acceptable to cluster bomb Britain. But really what a ridiculous question because you ask this to make some point about cluster bombs in Lebanon. The political state of Britain is nothing like Lebanon.

If say Bradford formed a breakaway Muslim republic and then conducted a campaign of terror from it then I would say yes. But that's not about to happen now is it!!
No, it's not likely to happen. If it did though and Israel decided to cluster bomb Bradford (where I am assuming you live) and bomb evacuating caravans and prevent aid from getting through, how would you find that acceptable? Would you think that was fine because there was a terrorist group in the region? That was what I was asking.

Venom · Joined: 06 Sep 2006 Posts: 807

Other smart weapons have 20% failure rates (including Jdams), military ordance has an "acceptable" failure rate when it is made.

Quote: They're cluster bombs. Not all of them will be on target or even close
Cluster bombs are pretty good about their targeted area, they are the weapon of choice used against such targets as SCUD launchers, Hezbollah's rockets, etc.

Quote: That's fantastic for Israel's finances but it doesn't exactly demonstrate Israel's commitment to killing only people who are militants.
If Israel wasn't worried about civilian deaths they didn't even need to send in troops. They could have just dropped artillery, bombs, rockets, etc onto Lebanon without bringing in their troops to put them into harms way.

As for Ali's article it's pretty stupid. Terrorbombings? I guess he doesn't realize that both Axis and Allies carpet bombed cities?
As for his link it's a pretty silly little site.

agentkgb · Joined: 23 Aug 2006 Posts: 2241 Location: US

Again, I'm not saying Israel did nothing to prevent civilian deaths, I'm saying they didn't do near enough.
And the fact that allies bombed civilians doesn't make it right.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 15233 Location: On Earth

superskippy wrote: It depends on where you target them like any weapon.

But the fact that anyone can trigger them makes them non-discriminatory. No?

MoscowMatt · Joined: 16 Sep 2005 Posts: 1458 Location: UK / Hungary

agentkgb wrote: MoscowMatt wrote: Quote: Why is it that only civilian deaths in the Middle East matter?

Sounds like a Middle East related question to me.
I didn't say it wasn't. I also didn't say that only civilian deaths in the Middle East matter. I meant that I don't post here regarding civilian deaths outside the Middle East, because that wouldn't make sense to do in the Middle East forum.

MoscowMatt wrote: And no I would not find it acceptable to cluster bomb Britain. But really what a ridiculous question because you ask this to make some point about cluster bombs in Lebanon. The political state of Britain is nothing like Lebanon.

If say Bradford formed a breakaway Muslim republic and then conducted a campaign of terror from it then I would say yes. But that's not about to happen now is it!!
No, it's not likely to happen. If it did though and Israel decided to cluster bomb Bradford (where I am assuming you live) and bomb evacuating caravans and prevent aid from getting through, how would you find that acceptable? Would you think that was fine because there was a terrorist group in the region? That was what I was asking.

Quote: I also didn't say that only civilian deaths in the Middle East matter.

I know. I was asking the question in general. It wasn't with you in mind. I'm just curious why so many more were upset over Iraq than Serbia when the respective wars started. You'll be surprised at the similarities between Saddam and Milosevic. You know genocide etc etc, both were attacked 'illegally'.

Quote: No, it's not likely to happen. If it did though and Israel decided to cluster bomb Bradford (where I am assuming you live)

Why would it be Israel? To begin with you made no mention of what country would bomb the UK then you mention Israel!! Are you trying to somehow suggest it would be worse if Israel bombed the UK than another country??

Oh and I don't live in Bradford, so bombs away!!!! :lol: :lol:

Venom · Joined: 06 Sep 2006 Posts: 807

Quote: But the fact that anyone can trigger them makes them non-discriminatory. No?
Anyone can trigger a 155 arti dud as well, or a 500 lb bomb that didn't blow.... etc.... I've never heard of any weapon that can discriminate. A bullet shot from a rifle doesn't stop even for small children and I've never heard of an explosive that would stop it's chemical reaction in order to not blow up a school bus of kids.
Israel could have dropped guns with a note asking all Hezbollah to please shoot yourself with said gun so they don't have to hurt civilians, that could have worked right?

Quote: Again, I'm not saying Israel did nothing to prevent civilian deaths, I'm saying they didn't do near enough.
And the fact that allies bombed civilians doesn't make it right.
The point I believe your missing is that the IDF has already put a huge handicap on it's military capabilities. Your asking for more, which is likely to result in more deaths to their soldiers and their people.
Welcome to war, civilians will die. The IDF did more than enough to prevent civilian deaths.
The Allies carpet bombed entire cities of civilians to fight the Axis powers. That is widely accepted as necessary. Why? Because what else could they do? They had to use that tactical advantage to kill the enemy.
What is different about the IDF? Well they didn't carpet bomb, they dropped little notes from the sky giving prior notice, they put the area on notice, they used percision weapons and in the case of a large civilian death they actually suspended the air campaign.
We live in a time when people seem to believe that new "smart" weapons have the ability to only kill those they are intended for, to never miss, and to be able to kill terrorist embedded in a civilian population without colateral damage.
Again reality tells a different story.

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 7442 Location: Petah Tikva

Quote: But the fact that anyone can trigger them makes them non-discriminatory. No?

Every weapon is non-discriminate as no weapons distinguish between friend, foe, or civilian. A bomb is a bomb, a bullet is a bullet, etc. Cluster Bombs have been responsible for relativly few civilian deaths in Lebanon making them a lesser weapon of concern especially as clearence continues at a rapid pace.

agentkgb · Joined: 23 Aug 2006 Posts: 2241 Location: US

MoscowMatt wrote: Quote: No, it's not likely to happen. If it did though and Israel decided to cluster bomb Bradford (where I am assuming you live)

Why would it be Israel? To begin with you made no mention of what country would bomb the UK then you mention Israel!! Are you trying to somehow suggest it would be worse if Israel bombed the UK than another country??
No, I don't imagine the victims would care.
If some country (not yours) bombed wherever you lived (and evacuation caravans, and prevented aid from getting through) because some terrorist group was based in the same region, would you find it acceptable for them to do that just because the terrorist group was there? If so, why?
MoscowMatt wrote: Oh and I don't live in Bradford, so bombs away!!!! :lol: :lol:
Bombs away because I don't live there? That's exactly why I was asking you if you would find it acceptable for someone to bomb where you lived. (Yes, I understand it was a joke, but I still find it unlikely that you'd accept the bombing of wherever you lived.)

michael1967 · Joined: 23 Oct 2006 Posts: 4

Its plain and simple the middle East is a cancer on the earth the culture is primative and backwards and are filled with such hate and extremism that I doubt that there is ever hope for reasoning with the people of these nations. The country of Iraq has America completely at their desposal militarily and financially and all they do is throw the country further into civil war.

The Comrade · Joined: 16 Jul 2006 Posts: 10542 Location: Zagreb

michael1967 wrote: Its plain and simple the middle East is a cancer on the earth the culture is primative and backwards and are filled with such hate and extremism that I doubt that there is ever hope for reasoning with the people of these nations. The country of Iraq has America completely at their desposal militarily and financially and all they do is throw the country further into civil war.

i like how you just described an entire culture as backwards and primitive, then blamed the middle east to be full of hate and extremism.

michael1967 · Joined: 23 Oct 2006 Posts: 4

superskippy wrote: Quote: Some weapons by default don't, even when you target them. Cluster bombs are one.

It depends on where you target them like any weapon.

Quote: Not entirely. Islam is against all the violence and extremism, but using Islam as a tool is what makes it difficult for people to understand.

Fair enough.

Islam is against violence and extremism :lol:

michael1967 · Joined: 23 Oct 2006 Posts: 4

The Comrade wrote: michael1967 wrote: Its plain and simple the middle East is a cancer on the earth the culture is primative and backwards and are filled with such hate and extremism that I doubt that there is ever hope for reasoning with the people of these nations. The country of Iraq has America completely at their desposal militarily and financially and all they do is throw the country further into civil war.

i like how you just described an entire culture as backwards and primitive, then blamed the middle east to be full of hate and extremism.

Yea so what?

The Comrade · Joined: 16 Jul 2006 Posts: 10542 Location: Zagreb

michael1967 wrote:

Yea so what?

you just claimed an entire culture is backwards and pimtiive, then claimed that those in the middle east are hate filled.

you contradicted yourself.

michael1967 · Joined: 23 Oct 2006 Posts: 4

The Comrade wrote: michael1967 wrote:

Yea so what?

you just claimed an entire culture is backwards and pimtiive, then claimed that those in the middle east are hate filled.

you contradicted yourself.

No I didn't that is one reason they are so hate filled, think!

The Comrade · Joined: 16 Jul 2006 Posts: 10542 Location: Zagreb

michael1967 wrote:

No I didn't that is one reason they are so hate filled, think!

you just made a hate filled and prejudiced comment to blanket an entire populous as hate filled.

you did infact contradict yourself.

lilwolf · Joined: 15 Jun 2006 Posts: 11644 Location: idaho

Funny thing is that particular type of cluster bomb is made by North Korea and they were exported by the thousands to Iran in the last decade. Here is another shot of the toy...

BTW all the ones in this photo are made by NK and China not by the US or its allies.

lilwolf · Joined: 15 Jun 2006 Posts: 11644 Location: idaho

What ....no commnet on the cluster bombs that are used by the hezbollah and Iran.