Political Crossfire Forums

[infirmaryblues]

Here are a couple links to such a discussion -

http://www.gamespot.com/pages/forums/show_msgs.php?topic_id=25054186

http://www.gamespot.com/pages/forums/show_msgs.php?topic_id=25046141

Two reasons for these links:

Great discussions that stray into politics and economics.

I want to brag.

Note that the early posts are rather ignorant and uninformed, part of the reason the thread evolves into what it does.

[Protostar]

I've played pirated games before and sure you can get them working (even online) but the copy protection these days makes it a b!tch to do so. I usually buy games unless I have them on another platform. I have SimCity 4 and UT2004 on the Mac; why should I be forced to buy them again on the PC? Same with GTA: SA that I own on the PS2. Right now, I'm s*cked into an MMORPG called EVE Online and am much to preoccupied with that to buy another game right now.

[The Comrade]

piece of s**t security codes make it almost impossible for me to download the games i want, but i would rather have the CD.

[Medius]

Here is my take. Games (as of the next round of releases) are $59.99. This is not a cheap investment. Considering many of the new games are buggy and sometimes just plain awful, I enjoyed being able to download and try the game out for a while. I often ended up buying any games once I knew that they were quality and worth playing.

Now, since I can't do this, I often end up paying $49.99 (current price) for a game that isn't what I expected and isn't worth playing due to bugs or inferior development. Not to mention that stores almost never take back a game due to lack of content or programming issues.

The gaming industry practices price-setting (almost all publishers put the same price on new titles) and produce inferior products that require hours of downloading to fix issues that should have been resolved prior to release. Why should I feel bad about pirating games again?

[Gus]

Pirating games will become irrelevant soon, I think. Platforms like Steam not only provide a very convenient and easy way to get games, but some games are damn near impossible to crack if authentication is part of the game itself. Also, MMORPGs are not pirateable. The Steam model has the side affect of increasing account theft, but it deters most would-be pirates.

Now, Steam also pretty much takes over your computer, but that's an entirely different issue...

[LetsGetReal]

Medius wrote: Here is my take. Games (as of the next round of releases) are $59.99. This is not a cheap investment. Considering many of the new games are buggy and sometimes just plain awful, I enjoyed being able to download and try the game out for a while. I often ended up buying any games once I knew that they were quality and worth playing.

Now, since I can't do this, I often end up paying $49.99 (current price) for a game that isn't what I expected and isn't worth playing due to bugs or inferior development. Not to mention that stores almost never take back a game due to lack of content or programming issues.

The gaming industry practices price-setting (almost all publishers put the same price on new titles) and produce inferior products that require hours of downloading to fix issues that should have been resolved prior to release. Why should I feel bad about pirating games again? If you would like to try the game out its called renting. I don't see how you can justify theft because you felt the price was too high.

[The Comrade]

LetsGetReal wrote: If you would like to try the game out its called renting. I don't see how you can justify theft because you felt the price was too high.


what's so bad about pirating games or music?

[TheGirlNextDoor]

The Comrade wrote: LetsGetReal wrote: If you would like to try the game out its called renting. I don't see how you can justify theft because you felt the price was too high.


what's so bad about pirating games or music?

So if all games and music were free (and this is what we're talking about here, right? The unwillingness for some people to pay for using anothers work....) then how are those people who choose to make a living by making such games and composing/performing music supposed to make their living? And if there is no motivation (motivation being able to make a living doing something you enjoy and excel at).. then what will happen to gaming and the music industry as a whole?

Hell.. why don't we all just march on down to the Harley dealer and steal a brand new motorcycle. *shrug* I don't see a difference here.

Harley Davidson makes a "living" (and employs many people and in turn supports many families) by producing a product and selling it to the public for profit.

[Protostar]

LetsGetReal wrote: Medius wrote: Here is my take. Games (as of the next round of releases) are $59.99. This is not a cheap investment. Considering many of the new games are buggy and sometimes just plain awful, I enjoyed being able to download and try the game out for a while. I often ended up buying any games once I knew that they were quality and worth playing.

Now, since I can't do this, I often end up paying $49.99 (current price) for a game that isn't what I expected and isn't worth playing due to bugs or inferior development. Not to mention that stores almost never take back a game due to lack of content or programming issues.

The gaming industry practices price-setting (almost all publishers put the same price on new titles) and produce inferior products that require hours of downloading to fix issues that should have been resolved prior to release. Why should I feel bad about pirating games again? If you would like to try the game out its called renting. I don't see how you can justify theft because you felt the price was too high.

Now, now LGR. How is it theft when they still have possession of their product? If I've "stolen" a game via BT, how do I give it back?

[The Comrade]

TheGirlNextDoor wrote:
So if all games and music were free (and this is what we're talking about here, right? The unwillingness for some people to pay for using anothers work....) then how are those people who choose to make a living by making such games and composing/performing music supposed to make their living? And if there is no motivation (motivation being able to make a living doing something you enjoy and excel at).. then what will happen to gaming and the music industry as a whole?

most people buy the CD or the game afterwards.


TheGirlNextDoor wrote: Hell.. why don't we all just march on down to the Harley dealer and steal a brand new motorcycle. *shrug* I don't see a difference here.

because electricty traveling through wires and turning into sound and photons is differen't then stealing an object like a motorcycle.

TheGirlNextDoor wrote: Harley Davidson makes a "living" (and employs many people and in turn supports many families) by producing a product and selling it to the public for profit.

you're right. what will maxis do if it loses a few million on piracy. there is now ay their company can support itself on the tens of billions it already owns.

and what will artists like jessica simpson do? it's a travesty that she won't be able to buy that diamond encrusted space ship.

[TheGirlNextDoor]

Protostar wrote: LetsGetReal wrote: Medius wrote: Here is my take. Games (as of the next round of releases) are $59.99. This is not a cheap investment. Considering many of the new games are buggy and sometimes just plain awful, I enjoyed being able to download and try the game out for a while. I often ended up buying any games once I knew that they were quality and worth playing.

Now, since I can't do this, I often end up paying $49.99 (current price) for a game that isn't what I expected and isn't worth playing due to bugs or inferior development. Not to mention that stores almost never take back a game due to lack of content or programming issues.

The gaming industry practices price-setting (almost all publishers put the same price on new titles) and produce inferior products that require hours of downloading to fix issues that should have been resolved prior to release. Why should I feel bad about pirating games again? If you would like to try the game out its called renting. I don't see how you can justify theft because you felt the price was too high.

Now, now LGR. How is it theft when they still have possession of their product? If I've "stolen" a game via BT, how do I give it back?

What if someone steals your identity?

Is it theft when you still have possession of your physical self?

Come on.

[Gus]

TheGirlNextDoor wrote: Protostar wrote: LetsGetReal wrote: Medius wrote: Here is my take. Games (as of the next round of releases) are $59.99. This is not a cheap investment. Considering many of the new games are buggy and sometimes just plain awful, I enjoyed being able to download and try the game out for a while. I often ended up buying any games once I knew that they were quality and worth playing.

Now, since I can't do this, I often end up paying $49.99 (current price) for a game that isn't what I expected and isn't worth playing due to bugs or inferior development. Not to mention that stores almost never take back a game due to lack of content or programming issues.

The gaming industry practices price-setting (almost all publishers put the same price on new titles) and produce inferior products that require hours of downloading to fix issues that should have been resolved prior to release. Why should I feel bad about pirating games again? If you would like to try the game out its called renting. I don't see how you can justify theft because you felt the price was too high.

Now, now LGR. How is it theft when they still have possession of their product? If I've "stolen" a game via BT, how do I give it back?

What if someone steals your identity?

Is it theft when you still have possession of your physical self?

Come on.
Well that's a problem with the phrase "to steal an identity," I think...technically, nobody is stealing your identity, they only do things to make themselves appear to be you, so it is really "to mimic an identity."

Anway, carry on...

[cap'n queasy]

Medius wrote: Here is my take. Games (as of the next round of releases) are $59.99. This is not a cheap investment. Considering many of the new games are buggy and sometimes just plain awful, I enjoyed being able to download and try the game out for a while. I often ended up buying any games once I knew that they were quality and worth playing.

Now, since I can't do this, I often end up paying $49.99 (current price) for a game that isn't what I expected and isn't worth playing due to bugs or inferior development. Not to mention that stores almost never take back a game due to lack of content or programming issues.

The gaming industry practices price-setting (almost all publishers put the same price on new titles) and produce inferior products that require hours of downloading to fix issues that should have been resolved prior to release. Why should I feel bad about pirating games again?

If they are so inferior why do you want to pirate them?

[cap'n queasy]

Gus wrote: TheGirlNextDoor wrote: Protostar wrote: LetsGetReal wrote: Medius wrote: Here is my take. Games (as of the next round of releases) are $59.99. This is not a cheap investment. Considering many of the new games are buggy and sometimes just plain awful, I enjoyed being able to download and try the game out for a while. I often ended up buying any games once I knew that they were quality and worth playing.

Now, since I can't do this, I often end up paying $49.99 (current price) for a game that isn't what I expected and isn't worth playing due to bugs or inferior development. Not to mention that stores almost never take back a game due to lack of content or programming issues.

The gaming industry practices price-setting (almost all publishers put the same price on new titles) and produce inferior products that require hours of downloading to fix issues that should have been resolved prior to release. Why should I feel bad about pirating games again? If you would like to try the game out its called renting. I don't see how you can justify theft because you felt the price was too high.

Now, now LGR. How is it theft when they still have possession of their product? If I've "stolen" a game via BT, how do I give it back?

What if someone steals your identity?

Is it theft when you still have possession of your physical self?

Come on.
Well that's a problem with the phrase "to steal an identity," I think...technically, nobody is stealing your identity, they only do things to make themselves appear to be you, so it is really "to mimic an identity."

Anway, carry on...

Is it criminal behavior or not? That's all that matters.

[TheGirlNextDoor]

Gus wrote: TheGirlNextDoor wrote: Protostar wrote: LetsGetReal wrote: Medius wrote: Here is my take. Games (as of the next round of releases) are $59.99. This is not a cheap investment. Considering many of the new games are buggy and sometimes just plain awful, I enjoyed being able to download and try the game out for a while. I often ended up buying any games once I knew that they were quality and worth playing.

Now, since I can't do this, I often end up paying $49.99 (current price) for a game that isn't what I expected and isn't worth playing due to bugs or inferior development. Not to mention that stores almost never take back a game due to lack of content or programming issues.

The gaming industry practices price-setting (almost all publishers put the same price on new titles) and produce inferior products that require hours of downloading to fix issues that should have been resolved prior to release. Why should I feel bad about pirating games again? If you would like to try the game out its called renting. I don't see how you can justify theft because you felt the price was too high.

Now, now LGR. How is it theft when they still have possession of their product? If I've "stolen" a game via BT, how do I give it back?

What if someone steals your identity?

Is it theft when you still have possession of your physical self?

Come on.
Well that's a problem with the phrase "to steal an identity," I think...technically, nobody is stealing your identity, they only do things to make themselves appear to be you, so it is really "to mimic an identity."

Anway, carry on...

It may be to "mimic" if you want to split hairs.... however...

Actually, a person can wreak total and utter chaos in your financial identity in a matter of an hour, if they have the right information. That is what I was talking about.

Stealing your credit.. your social security number.. your drivers license number.... access to your checking account, your PIN's, your credit card information. They can clean you out and ruin a person financially because they stole your "identity".

Well? It's not necessarily a 'tangible' thing... an identity.. is it? However it can be stolen.. just like games and music. Does that mean it is ok? After all.. you still have your health. Right?

[Protostar]

Gus wrote: TheGirlNextDoor wrote: Protostar wrote: LetsGetReal wrote: Medius wrote: Here is my take. Games (as of the next round of releases) are $59.99. This is not a cheap investment. Considering many of the new games are buggy and sometimes just plain awful, I enjoyed being able to download and try the game out for a while. I often ended up buying any games once I knew that they were quality and worth playing.

Now, since I can't do this, I often end up paying $49.99 (current price) for a game that isn't what I expected and isn't worth playing due to bugs or inferior development. Not to mention that stores almost never take back a game due to lack of content or programming issues.

The gaming industry practices price-setting (almost all publishers put the same price on new titles) and produce inferior products that require hours of downloading to fix issues that should have been resolved prior to release. Why should I feel bad about pirating games again? If you would like to try the game out its called renting. I don't see how you can justify theft because you felt the price was too high.

Now, now LGR. How is it theft when they still have possession of their product? If I've "stolen" a game via BT, how do I give it back?

What if someone steals your identity?

Is it theft when you still have possession of your physical self?

Come on.
Well that's a problem with the phrase "to steal an identity," I think...technically, nobody is stealing your identity, they only do things to make themselves appear to be you, so it is really "to mimic an identity."

Anway, carry on...

I agree. Also when you download a game you are copying it, not stealing it (which would imply that the store had one less item in inventory as a result of your theft). Copying =! stealing. Sharing =! stealing. When you allow someone else to read a book you've purchased (which I know all of you have) does the publisher of said book paid? Of course not. So how is downloading music/games any different?

[cap'n queasy]

They shouldn't call it "pirating games" because no self respecting pirate would try to convince anyone that what they do is right.

They should call it "lawyering" games. It captures the flavor of what is happening in a much more accurate manner IMHO.
:lol:

[Gus]

TheGirlNextDoor wrote: Gus wrote: TheGirlNextDoor wrote: Protostar wrote: LetsGetReal wrote: Medius wrote: Here is my take. Games (as of the next round of releases) are $59.99. This is not a cheap investment. Considering many of the new games are buggy and sometimes just plain awful, I enjoyed being able to download and try the game out for a while. I often ended up buying any games once I knew that they were quality and worth playing.

Now, since I can't do this, I often end up paying $49.99 (current price) for a game that isn't what I expected and isn't worth playing due to bugs or inferior development. Not to mention that stores almost never take back a game due to lack of content or programming issues.

The gaming industry practices price-setting (almost all publishers put the same price on new titles) and produce inferior products that require hours of downloading to fix issues that should have been resolved prior to release. Why should I feel bad about pirating games again? If you would like to try the game out its called renting. I don't see how you can justify theft because you felt the price was too high.

Now, now LGR. How is it theft when they still have possession of their product? If I've "stolen" a game via BT, how do I give it back?

What if someone steals your identity?

Is it theft when you still have possession of your physical self?

Come on.
Well that's a problem with the phrase "to steal an identity," I think...technically, nobody is stealing your identity, they only do things to make themselves appear to be you, so it is really "to mimic an identity."

Anway, carry on...

It may be to "mimic" if you want to split hairs.... however...

Actually, a person can wreak total and utter chaos in your financial identity in a matter of an hour, if they have the right information. That is what I was talking about.

Stealing your credit.. your social security number.. your drivers license number.... access to your checking account, your PIN's, your credit card information. They can clean you out and ruin a person financially because they stole your "identity".

Well? It's not necessarily a 'tangible' thing... an identity.. is it? However it can be stolen.. just like games and music. Does that mean it is ok? After all.. you still have your health. Right?
Well yeah people can do a lot of damage with identity theft...but it's not really "identity theft" that is punished, it's the acts carried out in "stealing an identity," i.e. stealing credit cards, fraud, etc. Nobody comes up to you and takes an identity from your purse...


Also, LGR, the issue is not theft, but copyright. Piracy is a violation of copyright laws.

[Revenant]

What about downloading ROMs of old games?

Really, most aren't even on sale anymore. The companies that created them are no longer gaining income from my purchase of them. Not to mention they are damn near impossible to find, and once you find them they cost 10 times the original price. It's ridiculous.

Honestly, downloading games that are still on sale in stores, and still benefit the companies that created them would be theft.

[Gus]

Honestly guys, it is not a theft issue...even the gov't acknowledges this, which is why pirates are tried for copyright infringement, not theft.