Political Crossfire Forums

Casualtie · Joined: 21 Sep 2006 Posts: 86

Do you think that altruism is a possiblity or do you think that people are always motivated by some form of selfishness?

For those who don't know, altruism is when you place others before yourself meaning you will do something kind for someone without any hopes or expectations of anything in return.

Wikipedia on altruism.

I for one don't think altruism is a myth and once this thread gets going a bit all say why.

Anarko-Kapitalizt · Joined: 21 May 2005 Posts: 2517

Damnit I voted yes on accident, should be another vote for no.

Fido · Joined: 16 Mar 2006 Posts: 3936

Altruism is a myth, but also a reality. Egotism is an ideal to some, but when push comes to shove, people find some reason for altruism. It is very easy to to be pessimistic, or misanthropic in theory, but it takes a great deal of energy to turn away from people in need. Given a real chance to be heroic or a buttwadd most people in my opinion seize the opportunity to be proud of themselves as only fulfilling a myth can give.

Myths lose their meanings when people cease to value them and the lessons they teach. The greatest hero the west has known gave his life for others. We still teach that lesson and believe it far and wide. It may not enter into any business plan. And whether a desirable myth or not, when people have to choose between the survival of others and their own children, they may be miserable, but the choice only fall one way.

Here is a problem for you. Is it just for people in this country to have to bear exploitation, and taxation, and also the sight of people in desperate need? Do we not in this Christian country where we forcibly tithed to support public charity have some right to protection both against the pit of poverty and the need to be constantly lowering the rope for others? Our churches must dun us for charity, and yet we are always reduced by the need of public charity that serves only the rich. Do we not have enough is this country of wealth for all? Are we wrong to expect that our government might restrain the hand taking food off the tables of the poor to advertise for wealth. Do we need more millionaires? Will the whole country fall apart without a few millionaires?
I do charity. I give clothes to Naha (Native Americans) in Rapid city S.D. and it is a stretch. And I am amply rewarded by the government as a tax deduction. The thing is, would it not be better for the government to give to these poor and conquered people, directly? Does this land not support justice for these abused and robbed people? The humiliation of begging, and of needing without resources is a crime in this land of plenty. When churches and government can only show empty pockets to all but the rich it is time for a change.

Jimbo69 · Joined: 12 Oct 2006 Posts: 2

Altruism? Some sophisticated thinkers seem to struggle to avoid falling into it.But I for one do believe there are people who stray from malice.Becoming fixated on the literal meaning may blind us from deeper truth's.Let us not forget,mind is distracted by it's own experience.

Anarko-Kapitalizt · Joined: 21 May 2005 Posts: 2517

I do believe altruism exists because I believe that some people actually take it to be their "duty" to sacrifice themselves. I do also believe nearly everything we do is "selfish" in some way.

bob.appleyard · Joined: 15 Oct 2005 Posts: 7403 Location: Manchestar, innit

Well, I do think that altruism exists. I do think that it is a function (in (most if not all cases) of rational self-interest ... but not selfishness, which is another concept. Selfishness is irrational self-interest.

Boneman · Joined: 24 Feb 2006 Posts: 511

People are altruistic because they get a high out of it, so in reality theyre helping themselves by helping others. Which can be considered un-altruistic I suppose.

Casualtie · Joined: 21 Sep 2006 Posts: 86

so far we are split down the middle with votes, except Anarko-Kapitalizt said that he accidently voted for yes. that means that no is winning. here a couple examples to think of:

1. a man planning on going to a movie passes by a fund claiming that a mere $10 donation will save someone from catyrax in a third world country. the man only has $10 in his poctect and decides that he can wait until the movie comes out on dvd to watch it, and donates his $10. i think this is a great example of altruism.

assume the man is catholic, some people may argue that he is only try to "gain points" with God and therefore gave entrance into heaven. this could be considered a selfish act. BUT no one, except for that man, is able to say what he is really thinking and can't claim him of being selfish.

2. a woman is walking down the street past a children's hospital when he looks up and sees that it is on fire and there are people screaming for help inside. she immediately runs inside to save the children's lives despite the fact that she may be harmed or killed in the proccess. again, i think this is an example of altruism.

people may criticize that she doing this in high hopes of being considered a "hero" soon after. she ran into the building after thinking for a while and coming to a conclusion that she has a very good chance of coming out alive. if she didn't run in, or couldn't save the children because it was too dangerous no one would know.

3. well here is my third example and perfect example of altruism: people who silently pray for others at night by their bedside. they may pray for people who have recently lost a loved one. no one is there to watch them pray and they are gaining no benefit from the prayer.

Raskolnikov · Joined: 06 Oct 2006 Posts: 334

i think that if you were to ask Mother Teresa why she helps the children, she would reply very innocently that she does it because it makes her happy. yup, she would say, 'because i'm selfish'.

Anarko-Kapitalizt · Joined: 21 May 2005 Posts: 2517

Raskolnikov wrote: i think that if you were to ask Mother Teresa why she helps the children, she would reply very innocently that she does it because it makes her happy. yup, she would say, 'because i'm selfish'.

Agreed. Thats the reason many people help others, to make themselves feel good.

Casualtie · Joined: 21 Sep 2006 Posts: 86

i don't think people do good things for people to make themselves feel good. i think that instead people do good things for people, and in knowing they did it out of the goodness of their heart and only that, that makes them feel good.

again, we have no way of accusing someone of being selfish or selfless because we don't know what they are thinking, we can only make an assumption by putting ourselves in their position.

mojo · Joined: 08 Sep 2005 Posts: 5350 Location: Dreamland, NC

Anarko-Kapitalizt wrote: Raskolnikov wrote: i think that if you were to ask Mother Teresa why she helps the children, she would reply very innocently that she does it because it makes her happy. yup, she would say, 'because i'm selfish'.

Agreed. Thats the reason many people help others, to make themselves feel good.

There are far greater levels of pleasure that can be accomplished than helping out others. It is more pleasurable to have random promiscuous sex with partners than feeding the hungry.

The joy they receive from selflessness is a consequence not the cause of action.

political scientist · Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 1:17 am Post subject:

This question is tough in that one can never tell what a person's intentions are. While someone smiles to yuor face and seems very kind and sincere, they may have other motives for self-gain.
I believe human nature overall is self serving and possibly evil, that is why there is so much crime and evil all around. People will do the most hideous things to each other for anything.
BUT.....
I do think there are those out there who can rise above the shackles of human error and do things for others without wanting something in return. There are people out there who will sacrifice themselves without any hope of heroicism, but rather to save the life of another. It's those people that preserve the ever-dwindling hope of a society ever reaching equilibrium.

~Political Scientist

Snake · Joined: 10 Oct 2006 Posts: 20021 Location: e-Thuggin

Holy crap I made it 50/50. Awesome. Anyway, I think altruism is possible, it's been done, in fact. Look at N Korea, they devote evrything they have, even their lives to their brave leader Kim Dawg teh Illest :lol:

Seriously, Ghandi, Mother Terresa, that buhddist guy that set himself on fire, etc. Perhaps not bursting from Americans, there have been great acts of altruism, the only ones I know of off the top of my head were during war, ppeople jumping on hand grenades, search and rescue choppers in Nam risking the VCs bullets to get a downed pilot, and other stuff like that. Altruism exists, and it has been acted upon, so, myth confirmed.

greeneye · Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 3:04 am Post subject:

Anarko-Kapitalizt wrote: Raskolnikov wrote: i think that if you were to ask Mother Teresa why she helps the children, she would reply very innocently that she does it because it makes her happy. yup, she would say, 'because i'm selfish'.

Agreed. Thats the reason many people help others, to make themselves feel good.

I think it's all in the motive of the heart. If people help and serve others for selfish reasons, that person can feel OK for a while.... but action driven by wrong and selfish motives seem to catch up with people in their lives and lack of fulfillment can often lead people to do reality checks.

DevilMan · Joined: 02 May 2006 Posts: 169 Location: Pennsylvania

I think we should look at this one backwards... Is it possible for a person to do something to make them selves feel worse? Hurt their current condition with no hope of benefit from it? Even suicide has a benefit, (in the person's mind) they don't have to feel that miserable anymore. If you can prove that you can do something to harm yourself, like tell your girlfriend you hate her and never want to see her again, you can prove that you can help someone with out at least feeling good about it. So go out and prove me wrong, kick a puppy, slap a baby, flush your favorite possession down the toilet.

Fido · Joined: 16 Mar 2006 Posts: 3936

greeneye wrote: Anarko-Kapitalizt wrote: Raskolnikov wrote: i think that if you were to ask Mother Teresa why she helps the children, she would reply very innocently that she does it because it makes her happy. yup, she would say, 'because i'm selfish'.

Agreed. Thats the reason many people help others, to make themselves feel good.

I think it's all in the motive of the heart. If people help and serve others for selfish reasons, that person can feel OK for a while.... but action driven by wrong and selfish motives seem to catch up with people in their lives and lack of fulfillment can often lead people to do reality checks.

I think it is all in self perception, which, if people are honest does not end with ones self; but embraces all life. God may have given Adam and Eve life; but they have given that life to all humans. We might own what we make, and take nothing with us. For anyone to be fully human they must recognize themselves in that condition, one of many, no better or worse, hurting or happy, but never alone.
A lot of people on this forum are desperately trying to see themselves apart. Maybe they are breaking away from their families, and want to know the illusion of freedom. I have been free. I first freed myself from a slavish obligation to the needs of my family, and then freed myself from every moral restraint. I felt like I could almost fly when first freed from my human burden, who was my brother. He languished with withered legs while I danced. The weight I had cast aside was all that made me human. It was not long before I assumed another burden. And as I write this I know some will think of me as a jack ass. If so, I am proud to make another more equal to life by accepting less for myself. I have a family. I am a man. I am a human. And my back is aching and my feet are sore and I am happy, for who has more?

Raskolnikov · Joined: 06 Oct 2006 Posts: 334

Quote: I think it's all in the motive of the heart. If people help and serve others for selfish reasons, that person can feel OK for a while....

okay. if Mother Teresa helps the children because it brings her pleasure, is she doing something wrong?

greeneye · Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 2:28 pm Post subject:

Raskolnikov wrote: Quote: I think it's all in the motive of the heart. If people help and serve others for selfish reasons, that person can feel OK for a while....

okay. if Mother Teresa helps the children because it brings her pleasure, is she doing something wrong?

of course not. But when people help and serve others with a pure motive, I don't believe their action is always motivated with this type of thinking:

Quote: "That person over there needs my help. I don't really want to help them, nor do I have time or the desire to help them. But I know and believe that if I help them, it will make me feel good about helping someone. And I like to feel good. So, even though I don't really want to help that person or have the time to go out of my way, I am going to do it because it makes me feel good and brings me pleasure."

For many people who help and serve others, it is very spontaneous. For Mother Theresa ... is was her mission.

mojo · Joined: 08 Sep 2005 Posts: 5350 Location: Dreamland, NC

greeneye wrote: Raskolnikov wrote: Quote: I think it's all in the motive of the heart. If people help and serve others for selfish reasons, that person can feel OK for a while....

okay. if Mother Teresa helps the children because it brings her pleasure, is she doing something wrong?

of course not. But when people help and serve others with a pure motive, I don't believe their action is always motivated with this type of thinking:

Quote: "That person over there needs my help. I don't really want to help them, nor do I have time or the desire to help them. But I know and believe that if I help them, it will make me feel good about helping someone. And I like to feel good. So, even though I don't really want to help that person or have the time to go out of my way, I am going to do it because it makes me feel good and brings me pleasure."

For many people who help and serve others, it is very spontaneous. For Mother Theresa ... is was her mission.

Did you know Mother Theresa never made it to the awards ceremony to accept her Nobel peace prize. She stopped in the streets to help a poor man.