Political Crossfire Forums

[ieatfood]

In a recent nyt article, the subject of the nation's math curriculum was brought up. It is well known that the US s*cks at math--when compared to Asian countries, US students look like retards in math. Personally, I feel that most of it has to do with attitude--Americans simply don't care about math all that much. In any case, the new "reform" math curriculum isn't helping things. Reform math is a type of curriculum which works by "de-emphasizing basic drills and memorization in favor of allowing children to find their own ways to solve problems." In some curriculums, students are taught NOT to learn long division!!!

This is complete bullcrap. When I was growing up, I went to special summer school where every day, we took two tests, and were assigned copious homework which consisted of nothing but drills on top of drills. For many of the kids at the program, getting anything less than a full score on the SAT math would have been disappointing. You lean math by repetition, not creativity.

In reality, all this talk of "reform math" is a fundamental misunderstanding of what math is. Math is a skill--like playing tennis, like playing the violin, like playing video games--a skill. Skills have certain properties. Here they are:

#1--some people are just better at certain skills than others, this is genetics and there's nothing you can do about it. Some people will never be good at math no matter what you do.
#2--skills are learned by repetition. You don't see champion tennis players say they perfected their tennis through "creativity" and "exploration." No--they perfected it by hitting 200,000 forehands followed by 200,000 backhands in 95 degree heat. That's how you get good at a skill--drill.
#3--Skills are cumulative--you can't learn how to hit a slice backhand before you learn how to hit a normal one. Stop trying to skip important skills like long-division. You need to learn how to divide in order to do other things in the future. If you skip the basic fundamentals, how can you expect to master anything down the line?

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/14/education/14math.html

Anyone who thinks that we should stop drilling and testing in math doesn't know a thing about math and should not be in the business of teaching it.

[agentkgb]

ieatfood wrote: Reform math is a type of curriculum which works by "de-emphasizing basic drills and memorization in favor of allowing children to find their own ways to solve problems."
Works in English, but there is a best way to add 2+2, math is not for creativity.

[ieatfood]

agentkgb wrote: ieatfood wrote: Reform math is a type of curriculum which works by "de-emphasizing basic drills and memorization in favor of allowing children to find their own ways to solve problems."
Works in English, but there is a best way to add 2+2, math is not for creativity.

That's actually not true. Math has lots of creativity--and the creativity can be a lot more engagning and meaningful than you think. One example is learning how to add 1+2+3+4....100, or learning how to reduce 1.456456456.... into a fraction or finding the sum to 1+1/2+1/4+1/8......

You can do each of these in 10 seconds using a creative method. But unless you've seen this creative method before and drilled it a couple of times, you will sit there for hours not being able to get the right answer.

[TheGirlNextDoor]

ieatfood wrote: In a recent nyt article, the subject of the nation's math curriculum was brought up. It is well known that the US s*cks at math--when compared to Asian countries, US students look like retards in math. Personally, I feel that most of it has to do with attitude--Americans simply don't care about math all that much. In any case, the new "reform" math curriculum isn't helping things. Reform math is a type of curriculum which works by "de-emphasizing basic drills and memorization in favor of allowing children to find their own ways to solve problems." In some curriculums, students are taught NOT to learn long division!!!

This is complete bullcrap. When I was growing up, I went to special summer school where every day, we took two tests, and were assigned copious homework which consisted of nothing but drills on top of drills. For many of the kids at the program, getting anything less than a full score on the SAT math would have been disappointing. You lean math by repetition, not creativity.

In reality, all this talk of "reform math" is a fundamental misunderstanding of what math is. Math is a skill--like playing tennis, like playing the violin, like playing video games--a skill. Skills have certain properties. Here they are:

#1--some people are just better at certain skills than others, this is genetics and there's nothing you can do about it. Some people will never be good at math no matter what you do.
#2--skills are learned by repetition. You don't see champion tennis players say they perfected their tennis through "creativity" and "exploration." No--they perfected it by hitting 200,000 forehands followed by 200,000 backhands in 95 degree heat. That's how you get good at a skill--drill.
#3--Skills are cumulative--you can't learn how to hit a slice backhand before you learn how to hit a normal one. Stop trying to skip important skills like long-division. You need to learn how to divide in order to do other things in the future. If you skip the basic fundamentals, how can you expect to master anything down the line?

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/14/education/14math.html

Anyone who thinks that we should stop drilling and testing in math doesn't know a thing about math and should not be in the business of teaching it.

For once I actually agree with you.

A couple of years ago I got a rude awakening when I went to back to school night for both my kids. It was after chatting with both of their teachers that I learned that neither subscribed to memorization of mathematical tables (the basics here now.. none of the problem solving stuff) and instead they wanted the children to "visualize" the math 'problems' with shapes and arrangements.

What the hell?

I went to grade school during the 70's and basic math was drilled into your heads at a young age. There was none of this "feeling the answer.... BE the answer" crapola.

I can understand different approaches to solving math problems once a person is into geometry, trig and calc... however I do remember my senior year in high school and racking my brain over calculus... there still wasn't the touchy feely problem solving "skills" taught then that are taught now.

[Demonic Spoon]

Sounds to me like you have absolutely no idea what it really is, and are just putting out a "back in my day!..." response. Learn some more about it, THEN b****.

[Green]

In 2nd grade, we had to memorise the multiples of 2 for 1-9. Then we did three, then we did 4, etc. It was easy. For each digit, it became more complicated, but there was one less digit to learn, because the product had been learned previously.

In third and 4thgrade, we learned longer and longer division. It was eventually mastered. It was pretty stress free compared to high school.

We didn't mess with shapes BS, we just learned to do the numbers.

[agentkgb]

ieatfood wrote: agentkgb wrote: ieatfood wrote: Reform math is a type of curriculum which works by "de-emphasizing basic drills and memorization in favor of allowing children to find their own ways to solve problems."
Works in English, but there is a best way to add 2+2, math is not for creativity.

That's actually not true. Math has lots of creativity--and the creativity can be a lot more engagning and meaningful than you think. One example is learning how to add 1+2+3+4....100, or learning how to reduce 1.456456456.... into a fraction or finding the sum to 1+1/2+1/4+1/8......

You can do each of these in 10 seconds using a creative method. But unless you've seen this creative method before and drilled it a couple of times, you will sit there for hours not being able to get the right answer.
But if kids sit there forever trying to find their own method, what if there's not one? In most situations, whatever they've drilled with (or, apparently, not drilled with) works best.

[perdidochas]

ieatfood wrote: In a recent nyt article, the subject of the nation's math curriculum was brought up. It is well known that the US s*cks at math--when compared to Asian countries, US students look like retards in math. Personally, I feel that most of it has to do with attitude--Americans simply don't care about math all that much. In any case, the new "reform" math curriculum isn't helping things. Reform math is a type of curriculum which works by "de-emphasizing basic drills and memorization in favor of allowing children to find their own ways to solve problems." In some curriculums, students are taught NOT to learn long division!!!

This is complete bullcrap. When I was growing up, I went to special summer school where every day, we took two tests, and were assigned copious homework which consisted of nothing but drills on top of drills. For many of the kids at the program, getting anything less than a full score on the SAT math would have been disappointing. You lean math by repetition, not creativity.

In reality, all this talk of "reform math" is a fundamental misunderstanding of what math is. Math is a skill--like playing tennis, like playing the violin, like playing video games--a skill. Skills have certain properties. Here they are:

#1--some people are just better at certain skills than others, this is genetics and there's nothing you can do about it. Some people will never be good at math no matter what you do.
#2--skills are learned by repetition. You don't see champion tennis players say they perfected their tennis through "creativity" and "exploration." No--they perfected it by hitting 200,000 forehands followed by 200,000 backhands in 95 degree heat. That's how you get good at a skill--drill.
#3--Skills are cumulative--you can't learn how to hit a slice backhand before you learn how to hit a normal one. Stop trying to skip important skills like long-division. You need to learn how to divide in order to do other things in the future. If you skip the basic fundamentals, how can you expect to master anything down the line?

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/14/education/14math.html

Anyone who thinks that we should stop drilling and testing in math doesn't know a thing about math and should not be in the business of teaching it.

Well, the problem is the curricula, not the teachers. A teacher's contract says that they have to teach the state mandated curriculum. if that curriculum doesn't have time for basics (which it doesn't in many states), the teachers can't work on the basics enough, unless they want to risk their teaching credentials. If you have kids, YOU need to drill them on the basics. My wife is a middle school math teacher, and she sees the problems of lack of basic math facts (i.e. addition, subtraction and multiplication). Our boys get drilled with math facts over the summer. She gives them daily math quizzes, as well as works with flash cards, etc.

[perdidochas]

agentkgb wrote: ieatfood wrote: Reform math is a type of curriculum which works by "de-emphasizing basic drills and memorization in favor of allowing children to find their own ways to solve problems."
Works in English, but there is a best way to add 2+2, math is not for creativity.

Actually, you are wrong. When my wife teaches problem solving in math, she teaches two or three ways to get the answer--usually the book's way, her way, and my way. All three methods get the same answer, but use a different approach. Nothing irritates me (a former teacher) more than a math teacher who says that there is only one way to solve most problems. There are usually several ways that will get a correct answer.

[perdidochas]

agentkgb wrote: ieatfood wrote: agentkgb wrote: ieatfood wrote: Reform math is a type of curriculum which works by "de-emphasizing basic drills and memorization in favor of allowing children to find their own ways to solve problems."
Works in English, but there is a best way to add 2+2, math is not for creativity.

That's actually not true. Math has lots of creativity--and the creativity can be a lot more engagning and meaningful than you think. One example is learning how to add 1+2+3+4....100, or learning how to reduce 1.456456456.... into a fraction or finding the sum to 1+1/2+1/4+1/8......

You can do each of these in 10 seconds using a creative method. But unless you've seen this creative method before and drilled it a couple of times, you will sit there for hours not being able to get the right answer.
But if kids sit there forever trying to find their own method, what if there's not one? In most situations, whatever they've drilled with (or, apparently, not drilled with) works best.

Well, for higher math, you need to know more than just drills. Visualization can help. Personally, from what I've seen, if my calculus teacher had used more visualization, I probably could have mastered calculus.

I'm not discounting drills. They are necessary. However, they need to be associated with instruction to teach how or why something works. For example, teaching multiplication tables without knowing that 2x3 is the same as 2+2+2, is useless.

[TheGirlNextDoor]

Demonic Spoon wrote: Sounds to me like you have absolutely no idea what it really is, and are just putting out a "back in my day!..." response. Learn some more about it, THEN b****.

Who are you addressing? What grade are you in, out of curiosity? And as a student, would you say our educational system is doing a good job.. and if so.. then why are we the laughing stocks of the world when it comes to mathematics and science?

[The Comrade]

ieatfood wrote: In a recent nyt article, the subject of the nation's math curriculum was brought up. It is well known that the US s*cks at math--when compared to Asian countries, US students look like retards in math.
it.


do you know why we have lower test scores?


in alot of countries, highschools that take standardized tests are for the pick of the litter. in america, every single person in highschool takes those tests. so, you have the best of the best testing in math and they get really good grades. then you have the best of the best here plus a few million total morons, which drags down our score.



having said that, the rest of your post is nothing but ideas based off of misinformation.

[ieatfood]

The Comrade wrote: ieatfood wrote: In a recent nyt article, the subject of the nation's math curriculum was brought up. It is well known that the US s*cks at math--when compared to Asian countries, US students look like retards in math.
it.


do you know why we have lower test scores?


in alot of countries, highschools that take standardized tests are for the pick of the litter. in america, every single person in highschool takes those tests. so, you have the best of the best testing in math and they get really good grades. then you have the best of the best here plus a few million total morons, which drags down our score.



having said that, the rest of your post is nothing but ideas based off of misinformation.

care to elaborate?

[ieatfood]

perdidochas wrote: agentkgb wrote: ieatfood wrote: agentkgb wrote: ieatfood wrote: Reform math is a type of curriculum which works by "de-emphasizing basic drills and memorization in favor of allowing children to find their own ways to solve problems."
Works in English, but there is a best way to add 2+2, math is not for creativity.

That's actually not true. Math has lots of creativity--and the creativity can be a lot more engagning and meaningful than you think. One example is learning how to add 1+2+3+4....100, or learning how to reduce 1.456456456.... into a fraction or finding the sum to 1+1/2+1/4+1/8......

You can do each of these in 10 seconds using a creative method. But unless you've seen this creative method before and drilled it a couple of times, you will sit there for hours not being able to get the right answer.
But if kids sit there forever trying to find their own method, what if there's not one? In most situations, whatever they've drilled with (or, apparently, not drilled with) works best.

Well, for higher math, you need to know more than just drills. Visualization can help. Personally, from what I've seen, if my calculus teacher had used more visualization, I probably could have mastered calculus.

I'm not discounting drills. They are necessary. However, they need to be associated with instruction to teach how or why something works. For example, teaching multiplication tables without knowing that 2x3 is the same as 2+2+2, is useless.

I disagree--even in higher education, drilling is key. How do you learn to do calculus? Simply--you do hundreds of calculus problems. If you've done a thousand integration problems and still can't integrate, then you are beyond help.

As for learning that 2x3=2+2+2, that can be drilled too. Here's a drill--rewrite these 100 multiplications into addition, and visa versa...

[The Comrade]

ieatfood wrote:

care to elaborate?


what is their to elaborate on?


the premise of the OP is that attitudes are why math is so low, which i showed you to be misinformation. statistics are horribly misleading.

[Poon]

ieatfood wrote:
I disagree--even in higher education, drilling is key. How do you learn to do calculus? Simply--you do hundreds of calculus problems. If you've done a thousand integration problems and still can't integrate, then you are beyond help.

As for learning that 2x3=2+2+2, that can be drilled too. Here's a drill--rewrite these 100 multiplications into addition, and visa versa...
Yes, for children who are new to math drilling is necessary. But different children have different skill levels. There comes a point where simple drilling saps the energy of students and doesn't really help them move forward.

People talk about higher math skills, its great and all if your kid can do all these types of math problems and ace them. But seriously, how often in real life do people use such skills? Unless you're in some kind of scientific research position, you probably won't have to use anything above calculus, or basic geometry. Most great inventions are created as a result of incorporating skills from multiple disciplines. The guy who sits around doing higher math, thinking about corollaries and theories about math alone won't have much of an impact on society.

[perdidochas]

ieatfood wrote: perdidochas wrote: agentkgb wrote: ieatfood wrote: agentkgb wrote: ieatfood wrote: Reform math is a type of curriculum which works by "de-emphasizing basic drills and memorization in favor of allowing children to find their own ways to solve problems."
Works in English, but there is a best way to add 2+2, math is not for creativity.

That's actually not true. Math has lots of creativity--and the creativity can be a lot more engagning and meaningful than you think. One example is learning how to add 1+2+3+4....100, or learning how to reduce 1.456456456.... into a fraction or finding the sum to 1+1/2+1/4+1/8......

You can do each of these in 10 seconds using a creative method. But unless you've seen this creative method before and drilled it a couple of times, you will sit there for hours not being able to get the right answer.
But if kids sit there forever trying to find their own method, what if there's not one? In most situations, whatever they've drilled with (or, apparently, not drilled with) works best.

Well, for higher math, you need to know more than just drills. Visualization can help. Personally, from what I've seen, if my calculus teacher had used more visualization, I probably could have mastered calculus.

I'm not discounting drills. They are necessary. However, they need to be associated with instruction to teach how or why something works. For example, teaching multiplication tables without knowing that 2x3 is the same as 2+2+2, is useless.

I disagree--even in higher education, drilling is key. How do you learn to do calculus? Simply--you do hundreds of calculus problems. If you've done a thousand integration problems and still can't integrate, then you are beyond help.

I didn't say that drills weren't needed. They are. However, more than just drills are needed in higher math.

ieatfood wrote: As for learning that 2x3=2+2+2, that can be drilled too. Here's a drill--rewrite these 100 multiplications into addition, and visa versa...

I'm not saying that drills aren't needed. I'm saying that understanding is needed as well as drills. It's not much use to know your multiplication tables if you don't know what it means. I'm not advocating against drills. I'm advocating for both knowledge AND drills.

[agentkgb]

perdidochas wrote: agentkgb wrote: ieatfood wrote: Reform math is a type of curriculum which works by "de-emphasizing basic drills and memorization in favor of allowing children to find their own ways to solve problems."
Works in English, but there is a best way to add 2+2, math is not for creativity.

Actually, you are wrong. When my wife teaches problem solving in math, she teaches two or three ways to get the answer--usually the book's way, her way, and my way. All three methods get the same answer, but use a different approach. Nothing irritates me (a former teacher) more than a math teacher who says that there is only one way to solve most problems. There are usually several ways that will get a correct answer.
I might be misinterpreting the term "creativity." I was thinking about the elementary school kids not being taught long division and the like, which doesn't make any sense IMO.

[Demonic Spoon]

Quote:

Who are you addressing? What grade are you in, out of curiosity? And as a student, would you say our educational system is doing a good job.. and if so.. then why are we the laughing stocks of the world when it comes to mathematics and science?


1) Sophomore in high school.

2) Depends. My school tends to do a good job, any problem is with the students.

3) No, the laughing stock of the world would probably be one of the third-world ****.

[ieatfood]

perdidochas wrote: ieatfood wrote: perdidochas wrote: agentkgb wrote: ieatfood wrote: agentkgb wrote: ieatfood wrote: Reform math is a type of curriculum which works by "de-emphasizing basic drills and memorization in favor of allowing children to find their own ways to solve problems."
Works in English, but there is a best way to add 2+2, math is not for creativity.

That's actually not true. Math has lots of creativity--and the creativity can be a lot more engagning and meaningful than you think. One example is learning how to add 1+2+3+4....100, or learning how to reduce 1.456456456.... into a fraction or finding the sum to 1+1/2+1/4+1/8......

You can do each of these in 10 seconds using a creative method. But unless you've seen this creative method before and drilled it a couple of times, you will sit there for hours not being able to get the right answer.
But if kids sit there forever trying to find their own method, what if there's not one? In most situations, whatever they've drilled with (or, apparently, not drilled with) works best.

Well, for higher math, you need to know more than just drills. Visualization can help. Personally, from what I've seen, if my calculus teacher had used more visualization, I probably could have mastered calculus.

I'm not discounting drills. They are necessary. However, they need to be associated with instruction to teach how or why something works. For example, teaching multiplication tables without knowing that 2x3 is the same as 2+2+2, is useless.

I disagree--even in higher education, drilling is key. How do you learn to do calculus? Simply--you do hundreds of calculus problems. If you've done a thousand integration problems and still can't integrate, then you are beyond help.

I didn't say that drills weren't needed. They are. However, more than just drills are needed in higher math.

ieatfood wrote: As for learning that 2x3=2+2+2, that can be drilled too. Here's a drill--rewrite these 100 multiplications into addition, and visa versa...

I'm not saying that drills aren't needed. I'm saying that understanding is needed as well as drills. It's not much use to know your multiplication tables if you don't know what it means. I'm not advocating against drills. I'm advocating for both knowledge AND drills.

well obviously---if you don't understand what's going on, you aren't going anywhere. What i'm saying is that one way of developing understanding is to drill. They're not entirely different entities.