Political Crossfire Forums

[Rankor and Pissing]

The bottom line is you have only yourself to blame. Continue to blame others will get you nowhere and only more bitter. Get off your ass and do something about it, educate yourself more and try again. Failures are only stepping stones and I have failed twice in a bid for small business start ups before I got a handle on what to do.

You'll continue to go nowhere on your current track - take the advice or don't... not my problem. FWIW.

[gavnook]

Harbinger wrote: gavnook wrote:
Harbinger wrote:
cap'n queasy wrote:
Then why do so many immigrants come here and successfully start and run businesses with little or no capital?

They don't. The only people who come here and successfully start and run businesses are the ones who bring lots of capital with them. Those who come here with little or no capital are just as dependent on jobs, public services and welfare as the rest of us. Perhaps you are mistaking second and third generation Americans for immigrants.

That is complete crap. Read this. Look at the chart and notice that for every ethnicity, foreigners are more likely to be self-employed.

Oh please! The article only seeks to explain why Asian immigrants are more likely to be self employed than native Americans- including native born Asian-Americans. That's a far cry from what you're trying to say. In no way does this article support your assertion that immigrants in general are able to come here and start their own business anywhere they want with little or no money while lazy spoiled Americans sit on their butts and complain about wages. The author specifically points to racism, language barriers and isolationism as explanations for the high rates of self employment among Asian immigrants. He also points out that Asian immigrants get most of their financial help from self employed family members which totally supports my assertion that unless you've got money and/or connections, it's virtually impossible start a successful small business in our economy.


Yes, the article is specifically about asian immigrants, but the statistics prove you wrong. Are you still saying that the only people who come here and successfully start and run businesses are the ones who bring lots of capital with them?

Harbinger wrote:
gavnook wrote:
I work with a man named Frank. Frank is from Mexico. He's in his 50's. He came to the US as young man with nothing. Years ago while working as a machinist, he started his own machine shop because he wasn't satisfied with income. Once his kids were grown, he quit that and got a job again because he didn't really need that much money anymore and didn't want to work that hard.

Didn't need that much money? Since when does anyone limit their income to what they need? Poor Frank should be very comfortably retired or voluntarily self-employed but, he isn't. He still needs a gob. Is this supposed to be the American dream?

Who are you to say how Frank should be? Once his kids grew up, he decided he'd prefer the stability and relative lack of stress of simply having a job.

[Harbinger]

gavnook wrote:
Harbinger wrote:
gavnook wrote:
Harbinger wrote:
cap'n queasy wrote:
Then why do so many immigrants come here and successfully start and run businesses with little or no capital?

They don't. The only people who come here and successfully start and run businesses are the ones who bring lots of capital with them. Those who come here with little or no capital are just as dependent on jobs, public services and welfare as the rest of us. Perhaps you are mistaking second and third generation Americans for immigrants.

That is complete crap. Read this. Look at the chart and notice that for every ethnicity, foreigners are more likely to be self-employed.

Oh please! The article only seeks to explain why Asian immigrants are more likely to be self employed than native Americans- including native born Asian-Americans. That's a far cry from what you're trying to say. In no way does this article support your assertion that immigrants in general are able to come here and start their own business anywhere they want with little or no money while lazy spoiled Americans sit on their butts and complain about wages. The author specifically points to racism, language barriers and isolationism as explanations for the high rates of self employment among Asian immigrants. He also points out that Asian immigrants get most of their financial help from self employed family members which totally supports my assertion that unless you've got money and/or connections, it's virtually impossible start a successful small business in our economy.

Yes, the article is specifically about asian immigrants, but the statistics prove you wrong.

How do you figure that? The author does an excellent and thorough job explaining how the culturally insulated sub-economies of Asian-American communities are so different from the rest of the regular U.S. economy. The statistics that apply to them DO NOT apply to the rest of us, it's apples and oranges. They do not tolerate the WalMart business model specifically because it threatens the success of the small business model which is what their families depend on. This is precisely the sort of economic structuring we need to adopt in the regular economy. The article supports my position.

gavnook wrote:
Are you still saying that the only people who come here and successfully start and run businesses are the ones who bring lots of capital with them?

Yes, they either have to bring it with them or they have to have connections with people who can provide it to them once they get here- especially family.

gavnook wrote:
Harbinger wrote:
gavnook wrote:
I work with a man named Frank. Frank is from Mexico. He's in his 50's. He came to the US as young man with nothing. Years ago while working as a machinist, he started his own machine shop because he wasn't satisfied with income. Once his kids were grown, he quit that and got a job again because he didn't really need that much money anymore and didn't want to work that hard.

Didn't need that much money? Since when does anyone limit their income to what they need? Poor Frank should be very comfortably retired or voluntarily self-employed but, he isn't. He still needs a job. Is this supposed to be the American dream?

Who are you to say how Frank should be? Once his kids grew up, he decided he'd prefer the stability and relative lack of stress of simply having a job.

I'm not saying how Frank should be, I'm saying Frank should have had more of a say in how he is today. Now, if you're trying say that Frank has always had that say, I'd say nay!

[the prophet]

Last year I quit working for a company that had employed me for 12 years. Prior to that I had designed several fishing lures used in the catching of Muskellunge. I saved a little money and bought several wood working machines,router table,belt/disc sander,band saw etc. and built a small wood shop in my back yard. after proving these lures to the fishing world through professional fishermen and women I started an on line store, built a web site and opened accounts in several retail stores. I am now at the point where I can hardly keep up with the orders but find that the cost of hiring employees would add huge expense to my overhead and push me back 40 to 45 percent in net profit. Out sourcing seems to be the only way to have lure bodies made without losing profits. Paying labor is a difficult step in small business. there must be low enough overhead and enough product sales to be able to offer even minimum wage. My company is going to become an LLC in January up from a sole proprietorship. I still have no debt to any bank and am making enough money to save a little and pay the bills. I work long hours but enjoy this work so I'm not complaining. I think the max wage I will be able to earn is about 40,000 per year profit doing all the work myself. I would like to find a way to grow without taking on debt and hire the work out so I could spend more time fishing and testing new lures. I am operating in a residential neighborhood but have no zoning problems because we use non toxic materials and we dispose of the saw dust and wood scraps. If I had to buy a building I would not be able to overcome the overhead and would be forced to close my company. So my take on this is Overhead and labor are the main issues facing small business. Most small companies can build up to a point and then cannot grow further without employees. One employee at 6.00 per hour 14,000.00 per year not to mention unemployment tax, Workman's comp, health care, vacation pay. I could not even temp anyone to do this work for 6 bucks an hour so double the income to 28k per year and you see where I get 40 to 45% loss net profit. I plan on staying where I am and doing the work vs. trying to grow any bigger. I may be able to sell my company and products to a bigger lure manufacturer at a nice profit as well. The government is not as hard on my company as the work is. If I wanted to grow I would have to grow big time and that would be a big risk with debt. Ill keep looking for ways to be more productive, better machines :) :). Good luck and keep going forward. There many pluses to being your own boss. the Prophet

[mODULAR mAN]

Rankor and Pissing wrote:
The long winded point is, don't blame the government for your bad time of it... you may do well to take marketing courses and learn how to sell yourself - since when you own your own business, is what the customer is really buying.

I finally agree with you on something! :lol:

I'm tired of people blaming the gov't for their not being rich. There are people getting rich in this country all the time. Even, gasp!, during the Carter and Clinton years.

There's a guy on another forum, a libertarian, who keeps complaining that his furniture business isn't doing well because the gov't takes too much tax dollars.

Ummm, dude, maybe it;s YOU and not the gov't that s*cks!

(Not directed at you guys).


Anyhow, there are 6.6 billion people in the world and the 300 million in this country are the most wealthy (have the most disposable cash). If you can't start and run a business in America, you're not trying hard enough.

To the OP, move, change your business model, or whatever - but don't give up.

[LeopardPM]

Hey Prophet, Great Job in your business - do you have a web site link to look at? Here is my small business in Reno (the web presence s*cks, but... Leopard Print & Mail, LLC.

Here is something to consider regarding adding employees:
If you look at things from the perspective of your current output and sales, then adding an employee will obviously cut into your financial bottom line, but, you will be trading the money spent on an employee for free time to do with as you wish. So, lets say the total cost for an employee would be $14/per hour - would you pay someone $14/per hour so that you could fish/experiment/etc? Maybe not... but...

The other thing to consider is... if you add an employee, will you then be able to INCREASE your total sales (with part of your saved labor going towards sales and marketing)? If the increase in sales is great enough, then perhaps you can have a little of the best of two worlds: more free time and the same amount of take home pay for yourself.

It has been my experience in the small/micro business world to find other folks that are: entrepreneurial, have little capital (cash), are currently employed elsewhere. These folks are usually itching to develop their own business or do something from home - so you subcontract out the part of your labor process which is most time consuming on your end (say creating lure bodies) and can be done at their home on their off-hours. Pay them by the lure body, not per hour, so that their wages earned are directly tied to their productivity. Don't initially set any sort of quotas, let them do it as they please and just be thankful for each lure they create in the time savings on your end. After awhile, they will come to have an understanding of exactly what their little 'job'/business entails, then start talking about increasing the quantity of lures (the initial time period is necessary because everyone underestimates the time required and minimizes the 'pain-in-the-ass' factor, so by giving them some time to try it out, they will be able to make a more reliable contract with you that you can depend upon when determining future production abilities). figure out what a lure body is worth to you to be made by others (with you providing the materials, but not necessarily the equipment, let them use your equipment for the initial period, but then have them invest in their own equipment for a more permanent contract because it helps cement their commitment).

I wish you luck in your business, sounds like you are doing great! Don't you hate all those taxes and paperwork for the government though? I gather you skip the whole state sales tax thing by going online and out of state - that's nice.

[LeopardPM]

mODULAR mAN wrote: Rankor and Pissing wrote:
The long winded point is, don't blame the government for your bad time of it... you may do well to take marketing courses and learn how to sell yourself - since when you own your own business, is what the customer is really buying.

I finally agree with you on something! :lol:

I'm tired of people blaming the gov't for their not being rich. There are people getting rich in this country all the time. Even, gasp!, during the Carter and Clinton years.

There's a guy on another forum, a libertarian, who keeps complaining that his furniture business isn't doing well because the gov't takes too much tax dollars.

Ummm, dude, maybe it;s YOU and not the gov't that s*cks!

(Not directed at you guys).


Anyhow, there are 6.6 billion people in the world and the 300 million in this country are the most wealthy (have the most disposable cash). If you can't start and run a business in America, you're not trying hard enough.

To the OP, move, change your business model, or whatever - but don't give up.
the point is that government makes it even harder to be your own boss - no one is saying that it is 'impossible'. Your argument is like saying that if the government imposes a $3 sales tax on butter that we shouldn't complain because all we need to do to buy butter is 'work harder'. The point is the government is making us ALL 'work harder' then is necessary, and one thing I don't want to do is 'work harder' for no reason at all - Do you????

[the prophet]

Leopard, see us at http://www.fishall-lures.com . I can have bodies manufactured in south america for pennies each. I dont want to outsource the work but there are no wood shops here who will even do it for what I would charge. Im still looking for a semi retired guy who will do piece work. I tried a couple of kids and the quality factor came in to play. Today I shopped for a new machine that would cut my time per lure in half. No luck finding one that I can afford. C.A.D. wood shaper. Very expensive for a new one. I will visit your site. I visited Leopard printing nice business. I have a local guy who like you who does our packaging . Its pretty cool business to get into. I have a cousin who is a Graphics wizzard . She designed our Talonz Logos. Small business makes the U.S. go around.the Prophet

[gavnook]

the prophet wrote: Leopard, see us at http://www.fishall-lures.com . I can have bodies manufactured in south america for pennies each. I dont want to outsource the work but there are no wood shops here who will even do it for what I would charge. Im still looking for a semi retired guy who will do piece work. I tried a couple of kids and the quality factor came in to play. Today I shopped for a new machine that would cut my time per lure in half. No luck finding one that I can afford. C.A.D. wood shaper. Very expensive for a new one. I will visit your site. I visited Leopard printing nice business. I have a local guy who like you who does our packaging . Its pretty cool business to get into. I have a cousin who is a Graphics wizzard . She designed our Talonz Logos. Small business makes the U.S. go around.the Prophet

Can I ask, what kind of equipment do you use?




Also, I think your website could use some work.

[LeopardPM]

the prophet wrote: Leopard, see us at http://www.fishall-lures.com . I can have bodies manufactured in south america for pennies each. I dont want to outsource the work but there are no wood shops here who will even do it for what I would charge. Im still looking for a semi retired guy who will do piece work. I tried a couple of kids and the quality factor came in to play. Today I shopped for a new machine that would cut my time per lure in half. No luck finding one that I can afford. C.A.D. wood shaper. Very expensive for a new one. I will visit your site. I visited Leopard printing nice business. I have a local guy who like you who does our packaging . Its pretty cool business to get into. I have a cousin who is a Graphics wizzard . She designed our Talonz Logos. Small business makes the U.S. go around.the Prophet

thank you - liked your site as well. Printing is a fun, yet highly stressful, business. I say, "Outsource the puppies!"... its obvious that is the only way you will be able to bring your quality lures to market at a reasonable price. You deserve to be earning more money and/or have more time off to experiment and fish, do whatever it takes to figure out how to outsource them for pennies. You AND your customers will be grateful to you!

[the prophet]

The equipment we use now are two Delta band saws, a 6" disc/ 2"belt sander and three small manual shaper tables( similar to a router table but a little more versatile. A C.A.D would take the place of all of them. My greatest fear of outsourcing this work is the quality. I could order 2 thousand bodies from south America and when they come in have 1 out of three out of spec. What then? send them back? The big problem with outsourcing with a small business like mine is we can not afford the down time or capital lost. I may have them try a couple hundred and see how they do. I'm still holding out for an older semi retired wood shop teacher or some other guy like that who is looking for some side money. I have a new tax I'm going to have to pay as soon as we go into Manufacturing as a OEM shop. Companies if the fishing lure industry have to pay a 10% federal excise tax. We are having this set up now with an accountant who is helping get our LLC status. As of January 1st we will be a full fledged company manufacturing wooden Fishing lures. At this time we will probably phase out our retail business. I do not charge sales tax to buyers that are out of my state. But they required to claim their purchases and pay use tax to their own state. When we buy retail Items from Wisconsin for instance and don't pay sales tax we pay .06 in use tax to Michigan. We are all supposed to do it but most don't even know about use tax. We claim our purchases so to balance in an audit we better have paid all of the use tax. The tax laws are all crazy and I think there should be less taxing of companies. Lets face it the government gets my income and taxes me on that why should it also hit me again for excise and business taxes on top of that?? My hats off to the small businesses who have employees and can make the money to pay them well. I'm still building up to that. the Prophet

[thintheherd]

Rankor and Pissing wrote: The bottom line is you have only yourself to blame. Continue to blame others will get you nowhere and only more bitter. Get off your ass and do something about it, educate yourself more and try again. Failures are only stepping stones and I have failed twice in a bid for small business start ups before I got a handle on what to do.

You'll continue to go nowhere on your current track - take the advice or don't... not my problem. FWIW.

Listen hard to this advice very closely Harbinger. Hard work and a plan will get you further than asking for help or crying about not getting any.

BTW, I too am self-employed... my only start up capital was my skill + labor + 0 $.

Not anymore ;)

Work smart, not hard.

[chris_mthomas]

Quote: Why is it so hard to start a small business?
1. 90% of small businesses fail because 90% of people have no clue how to run a business.
2. Financing is also a b****; that's just the reality of the world. It's tough to get the upfront money to start a small business - and it requires a load of upfront money. Banks don't like lending start-ups money because - gasp! - 90% of small businesses fail, and banks don't want to get stuck nonperforming loans. It's tough too to get investors, for the same reason.

[Shakey Stevens]

Im am currently in an Entrepreneurship class in high school and have basically taken every business and marketing related class my school has to offer. All i have to say is the government regulations, minimal fees etc. are the least of your problems when starting a small business. From an entrepreneur stand-point the biggest difficulty is getting your company's name out to the public. The small businesses that fail simply dont have the determination, ability, and knowledge to correctly establish a functioning and profitable business. Nothing to do with government or large corporations.

[LeopardPM]

Shakey Stevens wrote: Im am currently in an Entrepreneurship class in high school and have basically taken every business and marketing related class my school has to offer. All i have to say is the government regulations, minimal fees etc. are the least of your problems when starting a small business. From an entrepreneur stand-point the biggest difficulty is getting your company's name out to the public. The small businesses that fail simply dont have the determination, ability, and knowledge to correctly establish a functioning and profitable business. Nothing to do with government or large corporations.

how can you say this so surely, considering you have yet to attempt it at all? Its like someone saying how easy it is to make a free throw in basketball without ever playing themselves!

Yes, of course one must have 'drive', and PERHAPS advertise (not necessary in all cases, it depends upon the business type and model). Alot of business is just an ability to deal with paperwork and make basic math computations so one has information to determine correct courses of action ("am I making a profit?" etc). And, yes, government regulations and stresses and taxes are not a 'majority' of things a person must face, BUT, every additional straw on one's back IS an additional straw! I would say that government adds somewhere between 5-15% additional 'general crap' to deal with in business, which means that ALOT of business failures can be attributed to this stuff, as well as a significant portion of successful businesses are also reduced in profitability due to government.

Yes, if you are in the top 10% of business entrepenuers, you will probably succeed DESPITE government - that is not the point. Lets go back to the basketball analogy: sure, people can play basketball with lead shoes on, even score points, and defend, and some folks may even be able to dunk the ball - but you can surely see the dragging effect of those lead shoes on everyone's ability to play, right?

[Shakey Stevens]

The topic is "Why is it so hard to Start a Small Business". I believe i said it is the lack of knowledge to correctly establish a business. I believe that encompasses the ability to deal with paperwork and make basic math computations.
Governments have very little impact on a small business, not sure where you got your 5-15% of business' "general crap". Yes there are government taxes yada yada, but that is true for all businesses big or small and believe it or not those large businesses were once small.
I dont know what your thinking but give me one business type or "model" (what the heck is that supposed to mean) that doesnt require advertisment of some sort, its a little difficult huh? Thats because there isnt.

So in conclusion it is so hard to start a small business because of the entrepreneurs lack of knowledge in business or subject, lack of a good original idea that attracts people, and lack of ability to manage their employees and delegate tasks.

[LeopardPM]

Shakey Stevens wrote:
Governments have very little impact on a small business, not sure where you got your 5-15% of business' "general crap".
Due to government regulation, one simply cannot really startup a business without having at least an accountant (probably a lawyer as well) to 'help' make sure that all the proper paperwork and acounts are setup to interface with government itself. This is in addition to having the accountant for general business tax returns. I say 'help' because even if one has an accountant, if they do not happen to specialize in your particular type of business, they may not know exactly what the government requires. An example: I was in business for 4 years before discovering that it was necessary to pay a capital equipment property tax YEARLY. This is not something that is common sense, that just anyone would know. On top of this tax stuff, one also must determine tax implications before making any major business decisions (To hire or not, to purchase equipment or not, what equipment, buy or lease, etc etc). So EVERY major business decision must take into account government and tax regulations which require the services of someone who specifically deals with that stuff. Mind you, these things have NOTHING to do with normal operations of a 'business', they are separate and a distinct additional periods of time, effort, and money spent only because of government involvement - they make me that much more inefficient, unprofitable, and add a layer of stress ("Did I do these papers right?" "Am I gonna get audited?" "I could lose my business or even go to jail because of things that have NO relation to my ability to satisfy the needs and desires of my customers!").

Quote: Yes there are government taxes yada yada, but that is true for all businesses big or small and believe it or not those large businesses were once small.
Yes, true for all businesses... which makes it worse! This means EVERY business in our economy is equally being harassed and devoting precious resources just to deal with government! Not to mention, there is the 'economy of scale' effect working against small businesses: it is far easier and CHEAPER for a larger corporation to deal with government because the total spent (and time/energy/etc) is a much smaller percentage of the company gross revenues. For instance, adding another employee to a business that is big enough to warrant having a human resources department is relatively easy - all the systems are in place whereas it is a much bigger deal (and far greater implications) for the small business. Its easy to dismiss government effects by saying, "yada yada yada" - but that is a very dangerous casual attitude to take when dealing with an entity that can, at any time, change the rules of the game and a place a previous legal business practice in the 'illegal' column and turn the owner into a criminal overnight!

Quote: I dont know what your thinking but give me one business type or "model" (what the heck is that supposed to mean) that doesnt require advertisment of some sort, its a little difficult huh? Thats because there isnt.
Most home-started service businesses do not 'require' formal advertisement - word of mouth can spread often times faster than the business can grow as it is. Alot of times home businesses start up totally by their own, without a formal conscious effort - for instance, home daycare (just by taking my children to school and meeting other parents and discovering they need someone to pickup their kids and watch them for a few hours each day I 'fell' into a sideline business which could easily earn enough to pay for my families food each month - about $800), or home haircutting, or massage, or yardwork, or handiwork, etc etc.

Quote: So in conclusion it is so hard to start a small business because of the entrepreneurs lack of knowledge in business or subject, lack of a good original idea that attracts people, and lack of ability to manage their employees and delegate tasks.
untrue, and this is where I have a huge disagreement with the current education in regard to entrepenuership and business in general. It is EASY to start a business - all that is required is: (1) find out the needs/desires of some of your fellow humans, (2) determine how/if you can provide such service consistently (follow through, honesty), (3) determine if the market value of the service/product is great enough to cover costs. You don't need an 'original' idea - that will come as you learn the business. Managing employees and delegating tasks IS important depending on how much you want to grow. It really comes down to attitude... which always brings to mind words of advice from my father when I first asked him about how I go about getting a job, he said, "Find out what THEY need and do your best to do it. Promotions and success will come easy if you pay attention to why you are working in the first place: to provide a service to another person that THEY believe is valuable." I could teach ANYONE how to start a business and be successful... if they were willing to understand that advice.

To rock bottom truth is: everyone IS in business for themselves. Taking the motto of the US Army, "We are all a 'business' of one". Teaching this simple fact to kids would go along way to increasing the general productivity and standard of living across the economy.

sorry for the rantiness

[Shakey Stevens]

Word of mouth is a form of advertising. You dont have to have an accountant, especially for a small business your talking about just established by word of mouth. If it is only spread by word of mouth it is no wonder the business failed. Word of mouth is peoples opinions, which could be good or bad, therefore you want to advertise yourself to promote it the way you want.

[mODULAR mAN]

LeopardPM wrote: mODULAR mAN wrote: Rankor and Pissing wrote:
The long winded point is, don't blame the government for your bad time of it... you may do well to take marketing courses and learn how to sell yourself - since when you own your own business, is what the customer is really buying.

I finally agree with you on something! :lol:

I'm tired of people blaming the gov't for their not being rich. There are people getting rich in this country all the time. Even, gasp!, during the Carter and Clinton years.

There's a guy on another forum, a libertarian, who keeps complaining that his furniture business isn't doing well because the gov't takes too much tax dollars.

Ummm, dude, maybe it;s YOU and not the gov't that s*cks!

(Not directed at you guys).


Anyhow, there are 6.6 billion people in the world and the 300 million in this country are the most wealthy (have the most disposable cash). If you can't start and run a business in America, you're not trying hard enough.

To the OP, move, change your business model, or whatever - but don't give up.
the point is that government makes it even harder to be your own boss - no one is saying that it is 'impossible'. Your argument is like saying that if the government imposes a $3 sales tax on butter that we shouldn't complain because all we need to do to buy butter is 'work harder'. The point is the government is making us ALL 'work harder' then is necessary, and one thing I don't want to do is 'work harder' for no reason at all - Do you????

No, but I'm gald I don't need to work as hard as I would if there wasn't a gov't. Or, do you enjoy the prospect of working to pay for you defense, protection, legal system, and all other benefits you get when a country can exert it's strength to stabilize the global market place.

After all, i'm sure you could get great tax rates in Somalia or Iraq. Why don't you move to one of those places with great tax rates?
I imagine it has to do with the benefit you get in knowing your business won't be taken over by raiders or that your family won't be swept up in a Civil War.
All that stability costs money.
The reason Bush or Gates can sit comfortably in their homes is because of the protection they and their family before them recieved.

I'm all for limiting taxes to a degree, but let's admit a large tax base can do amazing things.

[LeopardPM]

mODULAR mAN wrote:
No, but I'm gald I don't need to work as hard as I would if there wasn't a gov't.
Are you saying that the services government provides are provided more efficiently through government then through the market? If that is true, then lets have government provide ALL goods! Security, defense, protection, law, safety, healthcare, retirement, education, etc, etc, are all just goods demanded by humans. The State does not create wealth, merely rearrange it after taking a fee to do so. SO, all goods are created on the market - why not let the market distribute them as well and cut out the inefficient middle man?


Quote: Or, do you enjoy the prospect of working to pay for you defense, protection, legal system, and all other benefits you get when a country can exert it's strength to stabilize the global market place.
I can purchase these goods, as desired and in quality and quantity that I desire, on the market if given a chance - the government is a poor (and immoral) method of production and distribution of goods and services.

Quote: After all, i'm sure you could get great tax rates in Somalia or Iraq. Why don't you move to one of those places with great tax rates?
is this an argument?

Quote: I imagine it has to do with the benefit you get in knowing your business won't be taken over by raiders or that your family won't be swept up in a Civil War.
so, its kinda like paying 'protection money' to the mafia... wait, it is EXACTLY like that!

Quote: All that stability costs money.
of course! I do not dispute this - I only say that the government is the worst method of providing goods and services, which we all know is best provided from the market.

Quote: The reason Bush or Gates can sit comfortably in their homes is because of the protection they and their family before them recieved.
what?

Quote: I'm all for limiting taxes to a degree, but let's admit a large tax base can do amazing things.
oh yes! a large tax base most certainly do amazing things. Things like: allow an extremely large political class siphon off, parasitically, the wealth and labor of the citizens. A large tax base can also help pay for grand projects like building the pyramids, but at least the Egyptians were not so dishonest in their slavery - it was direct and obvious. The current insidious method of slavery involves stealing the value of the money through credit expansion in addition to taxation. Yippee for having a large tax base!