Political Crossfire Forums

[F'losrix]

And another thing, John: I never pretended to myself that I was worthy of asking or demanding anything from God. Why else do we pray in Jesus name? Because it was His sacrifice that is alleged to have established the path for our prayers and supplications to be heard.

This idea that I was demanding something in return from God for believing in Him is absurd.

[feederband]

thehollowman wrote: feederband wrote: toddytodd wrote: Perhaps it just makes me feel a little better thinking that there is someone (something) out there pulling for me a little bit.



I'm pulling for you man... 8:)

Does that make you god feederband?

Some how I missed this..

Even though I can do many more things than any of the gods out there today ..I don't consider myself one... But If you would like to send me money I will do my best to answer your prayers... :wink:

[John]

Well, I've said what I have to say...


Its what I experienced and believe. I wish the best for you all...and God bless.

[F'losrix]

I feel I should clarify something here: I did have expectations surrounding my conversion experience. After all, if I had none, why would I be attracted to the idea of converting in the first place?

But expectation is not demand. My former Christian beliefs weren't contingent upon God fulfilling my expectations. I continued to believe for a long time after my expectations failed to be completely fulfilled - if for no other reason than the realization that God is not controlled by human expectations. I was taught to view my disappointed expectations as coming from my own weaknesses, not God's.

It's important therefore to separate the failure of expectations to be fulfilled from the actual reasons I came to disbelieve. I won't say they played no role, but their role was not primary. Some of those disappointments acted as a catalyst that led me to abandon church attendance and Christianity as an organized religion, but they really form part of the background for how I eventually came to question my core beliefs, rather than being cause & effect. I've no reason to believe those same doubts would have failed to arise, had I stayed faithful in my church attendance, as some of them were already becoming evident before I left.

[feederband]

John wrote: Well, I've said what I have to say...


Its what I experienced and believe. I wish the best for you all...and God bless.

I believe you believe what you experienced, but whatever that experience was, is left to different interpretations...

[nygreenguy]

feederband wrote: John wrote: Well, I've said what I have to say...


Its what I experienced and believe. I wish the best for you all...and God bless.

I believe you believe what you experienced, but whatever that experience was, is left to different interpretations...

Hows that saying go....everyones entitles to their own opinion, just not their own facts. People interpret things how that WANT to interpret them, not how they really are.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Lord Hargreaves wrote: For the vast majority of my time at PCF I have been a Christian. However throughout previous months I have 'seen the light' so to speak and have given up my belief. I can say to this only that I am greatly excited about my new views and outlook, one of reason and of human conscience.

Why did I change my mind? Mainly I've been convinced of agnostic metaphysics, namely, that God cannot be proven to exist, and that there is nothing in this universe, no reasoned observations or logical thinking, which makes his existence more likely than not.

For instance, those who are religiously inclined offer the following conundrum: Everything that exists has been brought about by something previously existing, so necessarily something must have existed before the universe for there to have been a 'first cause'. Lacking any explanation, as science undoubtedly does, so must we allegedly deduce a divine or ,necessary' being. This is of course fallacious if all we are attempting to achieve is a rationalization of the irrational. It must be the height of contradiction to conclude the idea the universe has no starting cause - 'it just happened' - as being so unbelievable that one must instead turn to the idea of an all-seeing, omnipotent, omniscient being, existing outside time. If God needs no creator, then why does the universe? Both ideas being incredible are thus equally credible, and as such, reason cannot point us toward a Deity.

Specifically I also reject Christianity (especially my own Catholic faith) as a religion. If we read the Bible (especially the Old Testament) we must conclude that God is extremely violent and cruel, jealous, murderous, impetuous, peevish, possessive, threatening, irrational and misogynistic. If so I see no moral benefit in believing in such a God - a God that allows suffering, and indeed, causes it (Is God willing to prevent evil but unable? Then He is not omnipotent. Is He able but not willing? Then He is malevolent. Is He both willing and able? Then why does evil exist? Is He neither willing nor able? Then why call Him God?)

What of Christ? He was a profoundly moral and just man, and we can learn much from his teachings. But he appears to have glaring faults: he believed in Hell for those who dont follow Him: "whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven him neither in this world nor in the world to come". Eternal hell-fire for evil men is morally questionable, but eternal hell-fire for people who fail to believe, even if they are decent and just people? No man may claim to be humane and hold this view, and Christ held it most sincerely.

These criticisms of course necessarily presume Christianity can be taken seriously. In many ways even this is missing the point. What kind of religion begins by the debauching of a virgin by a ghost, and ends with an incoherent self-sacrifice (Jesus, who is God, died to appease the sins of humanity, to God - i.e. - Himself). There are my conclusions in a nutshell.

A final point - You know what really irritates me most? Those who say "you may not believe in God, but He believes in you". Such breathtaking arrogance and unquestioned superiority is precisely why I flip the bird to all those who waste their sunday mornings praising non-existent supranational beings, reciting childish fairy stories, following anachronistic and irrational superstitious creeds and conventions, and pretending barbaric and scientifically ridiculous texts are special and unchallengeable

Congratulations. How has your family handled this change?

[The Central Scrutinizer]

F'losrix wrote:
Edit: If you want to believe that being born again is real, as it applies to your own life, you're welcome to that belief. But you are not welcome to insist that anyone else must join you in it, or that you know more than those who believe differently.

But see, that's precisely the thing about Christianity and nearly every religion to have emerged after it--evangelism is necessary to proper exercise of the faith. Whether it takes the form of a jihad or crusade, or simply passing out leaflets or conversing on a message board, it is an integral aspect of religious life. If you believed that you had the truth, and that part of that fundamental truth was loving others as God loves you, then you would try to share that truth. You and I may consider that belief to be based on self-delusion and social norms... but that does not change the internal logic of it.

[F'losrix]

The Central Scrutinizer wrote: F'losrix wrote:
Edit: If you want to believe that being born again is real, as it applies to your own life, you're welcome to that belief. But you are not welcome to insist that anyone else must join you in it, or that you know more than those who believe differently.

But see, that's precisely the thing about Christianity and nearly every religion to have emerged after it--evangelism is necessary to proper exercise of the faith. Whether it takes the form of a jihad or crusade, or simply passing out leaflets or conversing on a message board, it is an integral aspect of religious life. If you believed that you had the truth, and that part of that fundamental truth was loving others as God loves you, then you would try to share that truth. You and I may consider that belief to be based on self-delusion and social norms... but that does not change the internal logic of it.
A person's right to exercise their religious freedom ends at the point where it infringes upon another's. Now, I think we can probably agree that most proselytizing doesn't go that far. That doesn't mean it isn't offensive and annoying, though - and it would be a lot less so if they had the first clue about how to take 'no' for an answer.

Hence, my statement that their efforts to convert everyone are not welcomed.

[mODULAR mAN]

The Central Scrutinizer wrote: Lord Hargreaves wrote: For the vast majority of my time at PCF I have been a Christian. However throughout previous months I have 'seen the light' so to speak and have given up my belief. I can say to this only that I am greatly excited about my new views and outlook, one of reason and of human conscience.

Why did I change my mind? Mainly I've been convinced of agnostic metaphysics, namely, that God cannot be proven to exist, and that there is nothing in this universe, no reasoned observations or logical thinking, which makes his existence more likely than not.

For instance, those who are religiously inclined offer the following conundrum: Everything that exists has been brought about by something previously existing, so necessarily something must have existed before the universe for there to have been a 'first cause'. Lacking any explanation, as science undoubtedly does, so must we allegedly deduce a divine or ,necessary' being. This is of course fallacious if all we are attempting to achieve is a rationalization of the irrational. It must be the height of contradiction to conclude the idea the universe has no starting cause - 'it just happened' - as being so unbelievable that one must instead turn to the idea of an all-seeing, omnipotent, omniscient being, existing outside time. If God needs no creator, then why does the universe? Both ideas being incredible are thus equally credible, and as such, reason cannot point us toward a Deity.

Specifically I also reject Christianity (especially my own Catholic faith) as a religion. If we read the Bible (especially the Old Testament) we must conclude that God is extremely violent and cruel, jealous, murderous, impetuous, peevish, possessive, threatening, irrational and misogynistic. If so I see no moral benefit in believing in such a God - a God that allows suffering, and indeed, causes it (Is God willing to prevent evil but unable? Then He is not omnipotent. Is He able but not willing? Then He is malevolent. Is He both willing and able? Then why does evil exist? Is He neither willing nor able? Then why call Him God?)

What of Christ? He was a profoundly moral and just man, and we can learn much from his teachings. But he appears to have glaring faults: he believed in Hell for those who dont follow Him: "whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven him neither in this world nor in the world to come". Eternal hell-fire for evil men is morally questionable, but eternal hell-fire for people who fail to believe, even if they are decent and just people? No man may claim to be humane and hold this view, and Christ held it most sincerely.

These criticisms of course necessarily presume Christianity can be taken seriously. In many ways even this is missing the point. What kind of religion begins by the debauching of a virgin by a ghost, and ends with an incoherent self-sacrifice (Jesus, who is God, died to appease the sins of humanity, to God - i.e. - Himself). There are my conclusions in a nutshell.

A final point - You know what really irritates me most? Those who say "you may not believe in God, but He believes in you". Such breathtaking arrogance and unquestioned superiority is precisely why I flip the bird to all those who waste their sunday mornings praising non-existent supranational beings, reciting childish fairy stories, following anachronistic and irrational superstitious creeds and conventions, and pretending barbaric and scientifically ridiculous texts are special and unchallengeable

Congratulations. How has your family handled this change?

Yes, congratulations. I was a devout Xian and found the realization of atheism very painful at first. I felt "dirty" when I first picked up a book on atheism - when I was 24! (I had been brought up Methodist/Baptist and even went to many religious retreats).

Many Xians, who were drug users before "finding god" (the most bizarre non-statement ever!) always try to convince other users that the transformation from drugs to Jesus is difficult but wholey better when you get there.

I would say it is likewise for the change from theist to atheist. I feel cleaner, more pure, lighter, less fearful, etc..

I wonder if other atheists have had this experience?

Denouncing/denying Jesus and god was the scariest, and yet best thing I have done. I finally feel part of the world; part of humanity.


What finally did it for me was the simple question: "How is 'all this' different from there being no god in the first place?"

The answer: There isn't.

[feederband]

mODULAR mAN wrote: I would say it is likewise for the change from theist to atheist. I feel cleaner, more pure, lighter, less fearful, etc..

I wonder if other atheists have had this experience?

Denouncing/denying Jesus and god was the scariest, and yet best thing I have done. I finally feel part of the world; part of humanity.

Once I cut ties with the big dog I felt at ease with everything...To me I now had more purpose in life...All the sudden the world got ten times bigger and everything started to make since....I wish everyone could experience the way I feel...

[slitedeviance]

feederband wrote: Once I cut ties with the big dog I felt at ease with everything...To me I now had more purpose in life...All the sudden the world got ten times bigger and everything started to make since....I wish everyone could experience the way I feel...

Thats similair to my deconversion in a way. I'd spent 15 years as a catholic (church every sunday, all festivals celebrated, catholic education) when I ended up not believing anymore.

Our Priest was an Irish guy, about 65 when I was baptised. He was the bedrock of the church. He was forcibly retired by his parish and replaced with a hip ex-policeman turned priest, who looked on the parish as a commercial enterprise. His Sermons were about funding for the new childrens playschool or the time he was guarding the queen etc etc. I just lost my faith. If someone like this could become a priest then I felt I couldn't understand what faith was (compounded with the fact my mum died at the same time) and completely lost any sense of belief.

It's weird. I feel so easy, like you say feederband, with everything simply because I've grown to understand that life doesn't need an explanation. Maybe God exists, I don't believe he does, but I'm content to just try and do life for now...

[mODULAR mAN]

feederband wrote: To me I now had more purpose in life...All the sudden the world got ten times bigger and everything started to make sense....

I feel exactly the same way, it's kinda zen - without the gobbedly-****!

[toddytodd]

feederband wrote: thehollowman wrote: feederband wrote: toddytodd wrote: Perhaps it just makes me feel a little better thinking that there is someone (something) out there pulling for me a little bit.



I'm pulling for you man... 8:)

Does that make you god feederband?

Some how I missed this..

Even though I can do many more things than any of the gods out there today ..I don't consider myself one... But If you would like to send me money I will do my best to answer your prayers... :wink:

Sounds like someone is applying for the next tele-evangilist job.... 8:)

[mODULAR mAN]

John wrote: If you assume that God doesn't exist from the start...you're not going to find evidence.
Wow! Lucky for you you believed in God before you found the "evidence"! :wink:

Honestly, doesn't your statement bother you on some profound level? THat is, doesn't it offend your logical sensibilities?

How did you know what god was before you say this supposed evidence? Because you were brought up to believe it? Because you were told by your parents or Preist that god existed and the Bible was true?

What evidence are you talking about?

[mODULAR mAN]

F'losrix wrote: A person's right to exercise their religious freedom ends at the point where it infringes upon another's.

This, besides my general interest in logic, is why I am interested in religion.

When a religious person votes for someone who promises to, say, ban gay marriage because the Bible says homosexuality is a sin, it is an infringment on other people's rights.

[John]

mODULAR mAN wrote: John wrote: If you assume that God doesn't exist from the start...you're not going to find evidence.
Wow! Lucky for you you believed in God before you found the "evidence"! :wink:

Honestly, doesn't your statement bother you on some profound level? THat is, doesn't it offend your logical sensibilities?

How did you know what god was before you say this supposed evidence? Because you were brought up to believe it? Because you were told by your parents or Preist that god existed and the Bible was true?

What evidence are you talking about?

I'm talking about how scientists automatically rule out anything supernatrual...even if the "evidence" is pointing in that direction.

[nygreenguy]

John wrote:

I'm talking about how scientists automatically rule out anything supernatrual...even if the "evidence" is pointing in that direction. It is impossible for scientists to deal with the supernatural. Impossible. Its like you wanting microphones to pick up video. Also, who is to judge that the evidence points towards the "supernatural"? Couldnt the reverse be said for theists, they disregards science in favor of the supernatural even though the evidence "points that way"

[nygreenguy]

mODULAR mAN wrote:

I would say it is likewise for the change from theist to atheist. I feel cleaner, more pure, lighter, less fearful, etc..

I wonder if other atheists have had this experience?

Denouncing/denying Jesus and god was the scariest, and yet best thing I have done. I finally feel part of the world; part of humanity.


What finally did it for me was the simple question: "How is 'all this' different from there being no god in the first place?"

The answer: There isn't. Sort of. As for people who are close to me, most are already atheists, or just dont care. But for society, ive learned i get worse looks for being an atheist that being a JW.

[John]

nygreenguy wrote: John wrote:

I'm talking about how scientists automatically rule out anything supernatrual...even if the "evidence" is pointing in that direction. It is impossible for scientists to deal with the supernatural. Impossible. Its like you wanting microphones to pick up video. Also, who is to judge that the evidence points towards the "supernatural"? Couldnt the reverse be said for theists, they disregards science in favor of the supernatural even though the evidence "points that way"

It's only impossible if one has convinced themself that it is.