Political Crossfire Forums

[John]

Well, I am a Christian...and I'm just giving my honest opinion. I'm really not trying to upset anyone...and I apologize if I have without meaning to.

[nygreenguy]

John wrote: Well, I am a Christian...and I'm just giving my honest opinion. I'm really not trying to upset anyone...and I apologize if I have without meaning to.
Hew man, it happens. when discussing matters of personal importance, it can be hard to not be harsh sometimes. I am curious as to what your response to my last post is though!

[John]

Quote: Hmm...the truth? What evidence do you have that what you believe is the "truth"?

Well, first and foremost I have my own personal life experiences...and intellectually there is fulfilled prophecy that was foretold hundreds and even thousands of years before the events were fulfilled.


Quote: Music is "good" when you hear it because it appeals to your own personal taste. To clam that god is real because you feel is inaccurately feelings are far from being reliable and no way reliable enough to count as "proof"

And no one can say that they "know" god is real because to have knowledge one must have justification and truth. I challenge you on the ability to provide either.

Well, I think there is more to music than personal opinion. There is something about its timing and tone that the human spirit can pick on as being special. I mean...you might not like the music...but you can tell the difference between music and random noise. In fact...the closer to being noise the sound is...the less likely people in mass will enjoy it.

I agree that "feelings" are not proof of anything. I'm a little more complicated than that. What happens to a person when they are "born again" it a little more than a "feeling". It's like something inside of them comes alive and they are different in a major way after it happens. For example....before this thing happened to me...the Bible was boring and didn't make a lot of sense. After it happened...over night the Bible became extremely interesting and started to make sense. It's hard to explain, because I don't think there is anything else like it.

[nygreenguy]

John wrote:

Well, first and foremost I have my own personal life experiences...and intellectually there is fulfilled prophecy that was foretold hundreds and even thousands of years before the events were fulfilled. I understand life experiences hold a lot of personal meaning, but where were are dealing with the objective world, they are jsut anecdotal evidence and dont count towards much. And im curious, what are these "prophecys"?





Quote: I agree that "feelings" are not proof of anything. I'm a little more complicated than that. What happens to a person when they are "born again" it a little more than a "feeling". It's like something inside of them comes alive and they are different in a major way after it happens. For example....before this thing happened to me...the Bible was boring and didn't make a lot of sense. After it happened...over night the Bible became extremely interesting and started to make sense. It's hard to explain, because I don't think there is anything else like it. Sure, even then, how does that prove anything? Should we let our intuitions and emotions decide for us what is real and not, or should we use rational, objective reasoning?

[John]

Quote: but where were are dealing with the objective world, they are jsut anecdotal evidence and dont count towards much. And im curious, what are these "prophecys"?

Start a thread. :-D

[gemma]

If belief is a choice, then all a person would need to do is try and try again, and eventually they're believers and saved, no? But, if I don't believe, why would I try?

You say, if you believe, you know.

I'm pretty much an agnostic, but when people start talking about how blind I am and how much I suffer by not "knowing" and "believing" I get kind of stressed out occasionally.

If I don't believe, how do I get out of the vicious cycle? I don't know because I don't believe and I don't believe because I don't know.

Do I wait until the holy spirit enters my heart? Or are there things I must actively do? What if the holy spirit never enters my heart? What if I don't do the things I must do, correctly?

And then, what if I don't care? Is it my parents' fault for not raising me in a church, or is it my fault for being spiritually lazy?

[nygreenguy]

John wrote: Quote: but where were are dealing with the objective world, they are jsut anecdotal evidence and dont count towards much. And im curious, what are these "prophecys"?

Start a thread. :-D
Hey, thats just not fair! You brought it up! :(

[John]

Quote: Do I wait until the holy spirit enters my heart? Or are there things I must actively do? What if the holy spirit never enters my heart? What if I don't do the things I must do, correctly?

The things that need to be done...have already been done. Jesus Christ has completed the needed work. All you need to do is trust that He has done it and want the Holy Spirit to enter your heart.

When Jesus said 'Believe in me." He was saying that you need to believe that He is all you need....to stop thinking you need to earn favor through your own merit.

It's so easy people make it into a hard thing.

[John]

nygreenguy wrote: John wrote: Quote: but where were are dealing with the objective world, they are jsut anecdotal evidence and dont count towards much. And im curious, what are these "prophecys"?

Start a thread. :-D
Hey, thats just not fair! You brought it up! :(

What's the big deal? Just start a thread and explain what you are curious about and why. It'll be a good thread I'm sure. :)

[Blinky]

What a feeding frenzy this has become. Someone mentions that after a lifetime of consideration they've reached the conclusion that religion is not for them and they get swamped by people telling them they are wrong, making a mistake, haven't taken everything into account...etc
You people are serving only to cement my distaste for your moral high-horse BS. And for Lord Hargreaves too, I'm sure.

[toddytodd]

John wrote: StrangerWitCandy wrote: I was a die hard Christian before I became agnostic as well. Agnosticism is the most honest belief IMO, because it doesn't assume or proclaim to know anything that can't be proven. It is the epitome of open-mindedness. I have rejected religion and found that spiritualilty and philosophy fit me much better.

Christianity IS a rejection of religion. It's sad that so many people who think they are raised Christian...have really been fooled into just another form of earning favor with God (Religion). This is NOT what Christianity is about. People just have a natural tendency to practice religion. Even sports fans are practicing a type of religion.
What in your opinion is Christianity and how is it properly practiced?

[toddytodd]

Blinky wrote: What a feeding frenzy this has become. Someone mentions that after a lifetime of consideration they've reached the conclusion that religion is not for them and they get swamped by people telling them they are wrong, making a mistake, haven't taken everything into account...etc
You people are serving only to cement my distaste for your moral high-horse BS. And for Lord Hargreaves too, I'm sure.
Quote: ...get swamped by people telling them they are wrong, making a mistake, haven't taken everything into account...etc Unfortunately, this is the state of many modern religions (Christianity included). It is probably because the people who are telling everyone they are wrong (etc) are trying to outwardly justify their faith and their beliefs ("Look at me, Look at me - I am so great!", as well as make themselves feel like they are doing "God's will" ("God - over here over here!"). I'm not sure if that's funny or sad...:think:

[Blinky]

If one feels that they need to be religious it should be a personal choice and experience.
Anything beyond that is borne from an insecurity, IMO.

[toddytodd]

Blinky wrote: If one feels that they need to be religious it should be a personal choice and experience.
Anything beyond that is borne from an insecurity, IMO.

Absolutely :tu:

[F'losrix]

John wrote: The things that need to be done...have already been done. Jesus Christ has completed the needed work. All you need to do is trust that He has done it and want the Holy Spirit to enter your heart.
Speaking as someone who thought they had done exactly that, yet no longer believes:

It sounds to me like a case of giving out the secret recipe but leaving out a key ingredient.

I was once willing to surrender my free will, to allow myself to be ruled by faith in God's will for my life, instead of relying on my own imperfect intellect and the well-intentioned misguidance of others. I asked Jesus to dwell in my heart and truly believed with all my heart that His sacrifice on the cross was the perfect atonement for all my sins, that he was my Savior. I literally begged God to make me His servant and to make the Holy Spirit my guide. I studied His Word in the Bible to aid my understanding of what His will for me would be. I confessed my sins as a regular practice, asking to be cleansed of them, begging God's forgiveness and asking Him to help me when my will to do His will faltered or was weak. I did my best to keep His commandments. I tried to put aside all doubt, and asked God repeatedly to remove any that remained. The list goes on and on of the things I tried to do to understand and follow God's plan, but believing all the time that in the end it was only Jesus that would save me, not any effort of my own.

And yet, it didn't take. I sit here today as an example that despite all the yearning to be born again, to know God and His will and to follow it to the best of one's abilities, to sincerely believe that a miraculous change has happened, and following up on it with continual surrender of the will, acknowledgments of one's sins coupled with a desire and genuine effort not to repeat them - that apparently none of it is enough. I waited. I begged. I did everything I could to strengthen my belief and faith.

All I can say, is that if God really wants me to be a Christian, he has/had a funny way of showing it. I no longer have any desire to give up 'me' for the idea of a personal relationship with a God that offered only stony silence when I was open to receiving him and surrendering to him, actively seeking him, trying to quiet my spirit's restlessness that I might be ready to hear him speak.

So you can say 'the born again know' all you like. I only know what I know, and what I know is that for me it was an exercise in self-delusion. I can only conclude that if the Christian God does exist, he runs a very exclusive club and that I was found unworthy and unwelcome.

[John]

Quote: Speaking as someone who thought they had done exactly that, yet no longer believes:

It sounds to me like a case of giving out the secret recipe but leaving out a key ingredient.

I was once willing to surrender my free will, to allow myself to be ruled by faith in God's will for my life, instead of relying on my own imperfect intellect and the well-intentioned misguidance of others.

You say that you were once willing to surrender your free will, to allow yourself to be ruled by faith in God's will for your life, but you have proven that you really didn't mean it because you changed your mind.


If you really meant it....you'd still be doing it.

Instead you were dealing with God like you would a businessman....you expected returns for what you did...and when you didn't see these expected returns you changed your mind.

That isn't real, man. You can't fool God and put Him to the test before you are REALLY willing to surrender to His will.



Quote: All I can say, is that if God really wants me to be a Christian, he has/had a funny way of showing it. I no longer have any desire to give up 'me' for the idea of a personal relationship with a God that offered only stony silence when I was open to receiving him and surrendering to him, actively seeking him, trying to quiet my spirit's restlessness that I might be ready to hear him speak.

Surrendering your will means just that....you attached rules that God had to follow. That isn't surrendering.

When I experienced being born again (and trust me you know it when it happens). I came to a point where I said, you know what, if you are silent God or what ever you wanna do...so be it...I'm going to follow your word no matter what happens...good or bad...rain or shine. It was then that things started to happen....but I had to make the choice and really mean it before anything did. I had to let go of my conditions and expectations/rules for God. He is GOD and I am not.

[feederband]

F'losrix wrote: John wrote: The things that need to be done...have already been done. Jesus Christ has completed the needed work. All you need to do is trust that He has done it and want the Holy Spirit to enter your heart.
Speaking as someone who thought they had done exactly that, yet no longer believes:

It sounds to me like a case of giving out the secret recipe but leaving out a key ingredient.

I was once willing to surrender my free will, to allow myself to be ruled by faith in God's will for my life, instead of relying on my own imperfect intellect and the well-intentioned misguidance of others. I asked Jesus to dwell in my heart and truly believed with all my heart that His sacrifice on the cross was the perfect atonement for all my sins, that he was my Savior. I literally begged God to make me His servant and to make the Holy Spirit my guide. I studied His Word in the Bible to aid my understanding of what His will for me would be. I confessed my sins as a regular practice, asking to be cleansed of them, begging God's forgiveness and asking Him to help me when my will to do His will faltered or was weak. I did my best to keep His commandments. I tried to put aside all doubt, and asked God repeatedly to remove any that remained. The list goes on and on of the things I tried to do to understand and follow God's plan, but believing all the time that in the end it was only Jesus that would save me, not any effort of my own.

And yet, it didn't take. I sit here today as an example that despite all the yearning to be born again, to know God and His will and to follow it to the best of one's abilities, to sincerely believe that a miraculous change has happened, and following up on it with continual surrender of the will, acknowledgments of one's sins coupled with a desire and genuine effort not to repeat them - that apparently none of it is enough. I waited. I begged. I did everything I could to strengthen my belief and faith.

All I can say, is that if God really wants me to be a Christian, he has/had a funny way of showing it. I no longer have any desire to give up 'me' for the idea of a personal relationship with a God that offered only stony silence when I was open to receiving him and surrendering to him, actively seeking him, trying to quiet my spirit's restlessness that I might be ready to hear him speak.

So you can say 'the born again know' all you like. I only know what I know, and what I know is that for me it was an exercise in self-delusion. I can only conclude that if the Christian God does exist, he runs a very exclusive club and that I was found unworthy and unwelcome.


Nice.... :tu:

[F'losrix]

John wrote: Quote: Speaking as someone who thought they had done exactly that, yet no longer believes:

It sounds to me like a case of giving out the secret recipe but leaving out a key ingredient.

I was once willing to surrender my free will, to allow myself to be ruled by faith in God's will for my life, instead of relying on my own imperfect intellect and the well-intentioned misguidance of others.

You say that you were once willing to surrender your free will, to allow yourself to be ruled by faith in God's will for your life, but you have proven that you really didn't mean it because you changed your mind.


If you really meant it....you'd still be doing it.
The same tired, circular argument as always:

Your premise: A person who is truly born again can't stop being a Christian.

Your conclusion: A person who stopped being a Christian can't have been truly born again.

The conclusion is just a restatement of the original unsupported premise.

John wrote: Instead you were dealing with God like you would a businessman....you expected returns for what you did...and when you didn't see these expected returns you changed your mind.

That isn't real, man. You can't fool God and put Him to the test before you are REALLY willing to surrender to His will.
So we're supposed to get nothing from God in return for our belief apart from our salvation. No confirmation that God has acknowledged our decision to surrender our will and believe. Then you turn right around and say the opposite - that one feels this miraculous change. I felt such a change at the time. I really did. And now you sit there in high and mighty judgment on God's behalf, telling me it wasn't the real deal since my beliefs have altered.

You mischaracterize my prior sincere belief as putting God to some kind of test before I was willing to really submit. That wasn't the case at all. For a time, I really did feel changed. I didn't go into it with an expectation that I would never feel tempted. I didn't expect it to be easy, quite the opposite. I wasn't asking God for anything that wasn't promised in the Word. I sincerely believed I felt the presence of God and His touch upon my soul. Sometimes I still get that feeling, though my belief about what it means is quite different these days.

Something isn't nothing. All I expected from God was the aforementioned change, and that which you yourself have proclaimed to be part of the change: that a person will feel so wrong about sinning that they simply won't want to do it, or even that the desire to commit some specific sin will completely disappear. I got neither one for the long term. Neither God nor my sincere belief in Him nor submission to His will gave it to me.

You can claim I didn't really submit all you like. We can play the game of 'did too/did not' from now to eternity and it won't change a thing. Your aren't my judge, much as you'd apparently like to appoint yourself to be.

Quote: Quote: All I can say, is that if God really wants me to be a Christian, he has/had a funny way of showing it. I no longer have any desire to give up 'me' for the idea of a personal relationship with a God that offered only stony silence when I was open to receiving him and surrendering to him, actively seeking him, trying to quiet my spirit's restlessness that I might be ready to hear him speak.

Surrendering your will means just that....you attached rules that God had to follow. That isn't surrendering.

When I experienced being born again (and trust me you know it when it happens). I came to a point where I said, you know what, if you are silent God or what ever you wanna do...so be it...I'm going to follow your word no matter what happens...good or bad...rain or shine. It was then that things started to happen....but I had to make the choice and really mean it before anything did. I had to let go of my conditions and expectations/rules for God. He is GOD and I am not.
So we're supposed to believe without any expectation that something will happen, yet we're expected to know when we're born again because something happens. Sounds like a lot of nonsense to me.

[toddytodd]

John wrote: Quote: Speaking as someone who thought they had done exactly that, yet no longer believes:

It sounds to me like a case of giving out the secret recipe but leaving out a key ingredient.

I was once willing to surrender my free will, to allow myself to be ruled by faith in God's will for my life, instead of relying on my own imperfect intellect and the well-intentioned misguidance of others.

You say that you were once willing to surrender your free will, to allow yourself to be ruled by faith in God's will for your life, but you have proven that you really didn't mean it because you changed your mind.


If you really meant it....you'd still be doing it.

Instead you were dealing with God like you would a businessman....you expected returns for what you did...and when you didn't see these expected returns you changed your mind.

That isn't real, man. You can't fool God and put Him to the test before you are REALLY willing to surrender to His will.



Quote: All I can say, is that if God really wants me to be a Christian, he has/had a funny way of showing it. I no longer have any desire to give up 'me' for the idea of a personal relationship with a God that offered only stony silence when I was open to receiving him and surrendering to him, actively seeking him, trying to quiet my spirit's restlessness that I might be ready to hear him speak.

Surrendering your will means just that....you attached rules that God had to follow. That isn't surrendering.

When I experienced being born again (and trust me you know it when it happens). I came to a point where I said, you know what, if you are silent God or what ever you wanna do...so be it...I'm going to follow your word no matter what happens...good or bad...rain or shine. It was then that things started to happen....but I had to make the choice and really mean it before anything did. I had to let go of my conditions and expectations/rules for God. He is GOD and I am not.
Quote:

If you really meant it....you'd still be doing it. Rather you want to admit it or not, that is beyond B.S. It is sad that you actually believe this (assuming you do). It one must wait on God to save them or to offer them salvation, then God is playing a cruel game and is not worthy of worship.
Your opinions pale in comparison to the personal experiences from myself and others in this post. Your belief is only that; your belief. Over than that, it is wasteful. That isn't a personal insult, only truth.

[F'losrix]

And all that I've written here doesn't even begin to address the struggle I went through in giving up my beliefs. Nothing compares to the pain of believing you've felt God's presence, only to subsequently feel its absence. There are no words to describe the pain of realizing that all one has believed, sacrificed for, promoted and desired with all one's heart isn't real.

So, to those who can so easily sit in judgment of another's faith (or lack thereof), and make enticing pronouncements about what it means to be born again, I can only say this: You don't know what was in my heart, nor can you. God doesn't grant you that knowledge, no matter how much you'd like to claim that you have it. You may guess at it based on what you think you know, but what you really know about it is so minimal as to be meaningless.

Edit: If you want to believe that being born again is real, as it applies to your own life, you're welcome to that belief. But you are not welcome to insist that anyone else must join you in it, or that you know more than those who believe differently.