Political Crossfire Forums

feederband · Joined: 26 Jan 2006 Posts: 3898 Location: Florida

John wrote: StrangerWitCandy wrote: John wrote: StrangerWitCandy wrote: John wrote: Quote: But ask yourself what kind of god would create living, feeling, emotional beings for the sole purpose of having them constantly worship him and do his "will" in the absence of his presence (and he is absent, i'm not talking about interpreting everything as being god or part of god) which consists of illogical rules and unbelievable miraculous fairy tales? And to merely disbelieve in this god, regardless of how good a person you are, and despite the fact that he has not made his presence clear, would result in punishment of eternal pain?

What kind of a god is this? Is this not the definition of vanity? The only incentive I see for god creating humans, according to most religion, is so that we can essentially be his slaves or face eternal suffering? How could it be that most humans would even see this as cruel when apparently god is on a moral plane so high above us that we can never hope to reach it?

I just can't buy it.

I don't buy it either.

Could it be that you are looking at it from the wrong angle and therefore coming to conclusions that are incorrect?

Why are you placing God’s purpose and point of view from your own?

To illustrate the obvious vanity in God's alleged intentions. Tell me, is it not vain to create a race of beings only to demand that they constantly worship you and punish them to an eternity of pain should they not? What does God get from that? What's his incentive? Is it for pleasure, experimentation, what?

Demand? Do you really think you would have a choice if GOD demanded that you worship Him?

It's in your best interest to worship God because He is the source and the reason for everything. To not do so would be stupid, which leads to being out of balance...which leads to chaos...which leads to death.

Don't blame God because He allows to to be stupid of your own free will.

When the alternative to worshipping him is an eternity in hell, then yes, he may as well demand to be worshipped.

Hell is the absence of God. You get to live your Atheist dream. You’ve got it all backwards.

You mean we get to live in a human reality...I'm proud to be a born again self free thinking human...Its not backwards its moving the mind forward...

StrangerWitCandy · Joined: 02 Feb 2005 Posts: 5056 Location: Fairfax, VA

John wrote: Quote: My athiest dream? At least recognize that I'm agnostic, okay? Big difference there. And I believe it is you that has things backwards.

Not making a choice...IS a choice.

OK maybe I do have it backwards. Didn't mean to upset ya. :flwr:

Yes, the choice to refrain from adhering to any religious belief until there is enough reason presented to do so.

Don't worry you didn't upset me. Its just a pet peeve I have. Athiests think they know the truth just as much as the religious do. Agnostics admit ignorance and wait for evidence to influence our beliefs.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 22949

Anyways.....so you gave up Christianity. Well, it really isn't possible to "give up" being a Christian because in order to really be one...you must be born again spiritually. When that happens it changes you and from then on you're a new creature....being a Christian is something that you are spiritually born into. You can't be un-born from it...nor would you want to once your eyes are opened.

It seems to me that you decided to stop pretending to be a Christian...

In fact...the person who is taught all the truths of Christianity and doesn't ever really become born again...is worse off that people who are ignorant of it.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 22949

StrangerWitCandy wrote: John wrote: Quote: My athiest dream? At least recognize that I'm agnostic, okay? Big difference there. And I believe it is you that has things backwards.

Not making a choice...IS a choice.

OK maybe I do have it backwards. Didn't mean to upset ya. :flwr:

Yes, the choice to refrain from adhering to any religious belief until there is enough reason presented to do so.

Don't worry you didn't upset me. Its just a pet peeve I have. Athiests think they know the truth just as much as the religious do. Agnostics admit ignorance and wait for evidence to influence our beliefs.

Why don't you wait for scientist to prove that music is beautiful before you believe it? When you hear the sounds and it touches your heart....do you need proof to know that it is what it is?

feederband · Joined: 26 Jan 2006 Posts: 3898 Location: Florida

John wrote: It seems to me that you decided to stop pretending to be a Christian...

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Lord Hargreaves · Joined: 05 Oct 2004 Posts: 7042 Location: Herefordshire

John wrote: Quote: This is the paradox in Christian tolerance. To find Christ, one must be free to choose, therefore religious tolerance and freedom of ideas are necessary in a good society. Yet, how does the humane christian commit to "minding his own business" and keeping his religion private, when he believes his neighbours and friends will suffer for eternity if they do not find The Truth? Indeed Christians are told it is their duty to "spread the Good Word". Therefore, while it is ultimately your own choice, it seems to me a humane would spend his time constantly being a nuscience and a hassle to non-believers. The paradox then lies between allowing free choice on one hand, and forcing religion upon others on the other.

Look man, this is a debate forum...so I will debate the issues. That doesn't mean that I get in peoples faces and hassle them about Christianity. If the occasion presents itself I will share what I believe, believing that God will guide those moments. I don’t push anything on anyone. It’s between God and them…I just do what I feel like I need to and move on.

I think you misunderstand what i was trying to say. I am not saying you get in peoples faces and hassle them about Christainity, and that is a good trait. Rather I'm asking why you don't, since presumably you believe those who dont believe will go to hell, and you would wish to minimise those that end up there.

John wrote: You said earlier that the Christian should pity the person who rejects the Gospel. I thought about that...and I disagree. I do not pity someone who rejects the truth after it has been presented them. If you end up in Hell….I will NOT pity you….you will be there because it’s exactly where you need to be. I will not lose a second of sleep over someone who rejects such an awesome gift. It's on you...and I do not feel sorry for you. To do so would mean that I don't trust God and His will.

I admire your honestly. Obviously though, I think your viewpoint here is detestable. God loves everyone, even sinners, and i find it hard to understand why using ones brain to reach rational conclusions is sinful, let alone one that cant be reconciled. But I guess there we are

StrangerWitCandy · Joined: 02 Feb 2005 Posts: 5056 Location: Fairfax, VA

John wrote: StrangerWitCandy wrote: John wrote: Quote: My athiest dream? At least recognize that I'm agnostic, okay? Big difference there. And I believe it is you that has things backwards.

Not making a choice...IS a choice.

OK maybe I do have it backwards. Didn't mean to upset ya. :flwr:

Yes, the choice to refrain from adhering to any religious belief until there is enough reason presented to do so.

Don't worry you didn't upset me. Its just a pet peeve I have. Athiests think they know the truth just as much as the religious do. Agnostics admit ignorance and wait for evidence to influence our beliefs.

Why don't you wait for scientist to prove that music is beautiful before you believe it? When you hear the sounds and it touches your heart....do you need proof to know that it is what it is?

No, because all I know is that I hear the music and that it makes me feel good. Thats all the evidence I need. But do I worship music? Do I attribute all things to it? Not at all. That would be illogical.

And I never said I disbelieve in a higher being. I just think if a higher being exists, no one on this planet knows who or what it is. No one can speak on its behalf. And maybe we're not supposed to know. Maybe he doesn't want us to. Maybe it doesn't even matter.

F'losrix · Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 1:21 pm Post subject:

Why I ceased to be a Christian? Easy - I ceased to believe. Ultimately, that's what faith is - belief in something without the requirement that it be logical, rational, cohesive, non-contradictory, independently verifiable as fact, etc.

Why did I cease to believe? I suppose I could try to reason that out, but I can't necessarily put my finger on it being any one thing. It's more a cumulative thing of there being too much that didn't add up or make sense, enough so that there eventually wasn't enough of a foundation for my Christian faith to remain intact. What remains is a minimal belief that something beyond my comprehension caused the universe to be created, something so... that it defies feeble human attempts to study it, understand it or explain it (or to satisfactorily explain it away).

Why I'm not an agnostic or an atheist? I'm not sure that I have an answer for that. Mabye because I need the hope provided by a belief in something beyond human understanding to get me through the day. I guess I find it comforting to believe that there is a greater meaning to our existence, even if I'm not meant to comprehend what that meaning is. The alternative - a belief in the randomness of existence, that our existence is devoid of any greater meaning, is too depressing for me to contemplate. My beilef fulfills a personal need that I have, so that's all that matters to me.

I don't think it matters whether or not others share my belief, or I, their lack of belief. My having a belief is harmless to others, and their lack of belief won't harm me so long as they allow me the right to retain my belief.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 22949

Quote: I think you misunderstand what i was trying to say. I am not saying you get in peoples faces and hassle them about Christainity, and that is a good trait. Rather I'm asking why you don't, since presumably you believe those who dont believe will go to hell, and you would wish to minimise those that end up there.

Because I understand that that isn't the way it works. It isn't a choice someone can be forced into...not even scientifically.

Saying you want scientific proof is the same as saying that you want someone else to make the decision for you....that you would rather be forced into believing. The scientific proof is there...in plain sight. But it does take faith in God first...before you will believe it. Just as the scientific proof that denies God requires a disbelief in God as a presumption before any of it makes any sense.

F'losrix · Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 1:30 pm Post subject:

John wrote: Well, it really isn't possible to "give up" being a Christian because in order to really be one...you must be born again spiritually. When that happens it changes you and from then on you're a new creature....being a Christian is something that you are spiritually born into. You can't be un-born from it...nor would you want to once your eyes are opened.

It seems to me that you decided to stop pretending to be a Christian...
'Cuz we all know that you have a perfect understanding of what it means to be a Christian, spiritually reborn, etc., and that anyone who disagrees is just wrong because you said so. :roll:

No one else's personal experiences with faith matter. Only your ideas about what their experience should be like.

That attitude doesn't help anyone to grow in their faith. It merely inspires the desire to disassociate from such people.

pullthepin · Joined: 14 Sep 2006 Posts: 31 Location: Edmonton

John wrote: I accept what the Bible says God's intentions are and try not to add or subtract to that to the best of my ability. Anything above or below that isn't my place.
But was the Bible not written by the hands of man? Was it not translated and retranslated numerous times, thus becoming subject to human linguistic error?

We can never know the true word of God, because it has no doubt been corrupted by thousands of years of mistranslations, misinterpretations, and social bigotry.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 22949

F'losrix wrote: John wrote: Well, it really isn't possible to "give up" being a Christian because in order to really be one...you must be born again spiritually. When that happens it changes you and from then on you're a new creature....being a Christian is something that you are spiritually born into. You can't be un-born from it...nor would you want to once your eyes are opened.

It seems to me that you decided to stop pretending to be a Christian...
'Cuz we all know that you have a perfect understanding of what it means to be a Christian, spiritually reborn, etc., and that anyone who disagrees is just wrong because you said so. :roll:

No one else's personal experiences with faith matter. Only your ideas about what their experience should be like.

That attitude doesn't help anyone to grow in their faith. It merely inspires the desire to disassociate from such people.

Christians that have been born again know.

Why the hostility? I'm not saying anything that isn't Christianity 101 basic stuff spelled out plainly in the New Testament.

You must be born again in order to be a Christian...Christianity isn't about a set of rituals you need to follow...its about a real transformation that God causes to happen in a person.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 22949

pullthepin wrote: John wrote: I accept what the Bible says God's intentions are and try not to add or subtract to that to the best of my ability. Anything above or below that isn't my place.
But was the Bible not written by the hands of man? Was it not translated and retranslated numerous times, thus becoming subject to human linguistic error?

We can never know the true word of God, because it has no doubt been corrupted by thousands of years of mistranslations, misinterpretations, and social bigotry.

We have hundreds of copies in the Greek and Hebrew that date back pretty far. In fact we can be surer about the Bible than we can any other ancient text.

But sure...there is an amount of Faith involved. I base what I believe mainly on what I experienced God do in my spirit...it's that that causes me to believe that what the Bible says is true....and that God can preserve it through the ages.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 22949

Quote: No, because all I know is that I hear the music and that it makes me feel good. Thats all the evidence I need. But do I worship music? Do I attribute all things to it? Not at all. That would be illogical.

Well maybe you can kinda understand how I know that God is real. He changed me and I feel it in my spirit...I just know...kinda how you just know that the music is good when you hear it.

feederband · Joined: 26 Jan 2006 Posts: 3898 Location: Florida

John wrote: You must be born again in order to be a Christian...

The way you define it makes the number of real Christan's very small..

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 22949

feederband wrote: John wrote: You must be born again in order to be a Christian...

The way you define it makes the number of real Christan's very small..

You bet.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 22949

But it also includes many who most wouldn't think fit the bill.

ikari · Joined: 24 Sep 2004 Posts: 7085 Location: Colorado

I long ago left Christianity behind, mostly when it became blatantly obvious that the supernatural does not exist. I was raised Catholic, went to Catholic school and everything. But I don't know if I was ever really in phase with religion at any point. It never really made a whole lot of sense, and the world never really seemed to work as if the supernatural existed.

nygreenguy · Joined: 11 Oct 2006 Posts: 46 Location: New York

John wrote:
I do not pity someone who rejects the truth after it has been presented them. Hmm...the truth? What evidence do you have that what you believe is the "truth"?
Quote:
Well maybe you can kinda understand how I know that God is real. He changed me and I feel it in my spirit...I just know...kinda how you just know that the music is good when you hear it. Music is "good" when you hear it because it appeals to your own personal taste. To clam that god is real because you feel is inaccurately feelings are far from being reliable and no way reliable enough to count as "proof"

And no one can say that they "know" god is real because to have knowledge one must have justification and truth. I challenge you on the ability to provide either.

F'losrix · Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 5:01 pm Post subject:

John wrote: F'losrix wrote: John wrote: Well, it really isn't possible to "give up" being a Christian because in order to really be one...you must be born again spiritually. When that happens it changes you and from then on you're a new creature....being a Christian is something that you are spiritually born into. You can't be un-born from it...nor would you want to once your eyes are opened.

It seems to me that you decided to stop pretending to be a Christian...
'Cuz we all know that you have a perfect understanding of what it means to be a Christian, spiritually reborn, etc., and that anyone who disagrees is just wrong because you said so. :roll:

No one else's personal experiences with faith matter. Only your ideas about what their experience should be like.

That attitude doesn't help anyone to grow in their faith. It merely inspires the desire to disassociate from such people.

Christians that have been born again know.
Circular reasoning.

Quote: Why the hostility?
It's a direct reaction to the palpable arrogance with which the argument is made, representing your opinion as if it were some independently verifiable fact, when it is not. The only thing you have is the testimony of people who think as you do, while conveniently ignoring the opinion of others who don't.

Quote: I'm not saying anything that isn't Christianity 101 basic stuff spelled out plainly in the New Testament.

You must be born again in order to be a Christian...Christianity isn't about a set of rituals you need to follow...its about a real transformation that God causes to happen in a person.
As if there were only one way to interpret the Bible. Your way. Christians don't universally agree on what makes a 'true' Christian. Nor do they agree on every aspect of spiritual rebirth.

You're entitled to your opinion and your beliefs, but you're not entitled to argue them as if they were universally accepted fact when they're not. You pontificate as if you were the ultimate authority on Christianity and spiritual rebirth.

You most certainly are not.