Political Crossfire Forums

[feederband]

John wrote: nygreenguy wrote: John wrote:

I'm talking about how scientists automatically rule out anything supernatrual...even if the "evidence" is pointing in that direction. It is impossible for scientists to deal with the supernatural. Impossible. Its like you wanting microphones to pick up video. Also, who is to judge that the evidence points towards the "supernatural"? Couldnt the reverse be said for theists, they disregards science in favor of the supernatural even though the evidence "points that way"

It's only impossible if one has convinced themself that it is.

John, if something supernatural happens right in front of me do you think I would Deni it ?

[Dr. Wojtyla]

feederband wrote: John wrote: nygreenguy wrote: John wrote:

I'm talking about how scientists automatically rule out anything supernatrual...even if the "evidence" is pointing in that direction. It is impossible for scientists to deal with the supernatural. Impossible. Its like you wanting microphones to pick up video. Also, who is to judge that the evidence points towards the "supernatural"? Couldnt the reverse be said for theists, they disregards science in favor of the supernatural even though the evidence "points that way"

It's only impossible if one has convinced themself that it is.

John, if something supernatural happens right in front of me do you think I would Deni it ?

Hell if something supernatural even happened on the news I would have trouble denying it.

[Green]

Lord Hargreaves wrote: For the vast majority of my time at PCF I have been a Christian. However throughout previous months I have 'seen the light' so to speak and have given up my belief. I can say to this only that I am greatly excited about my new views and outlook, one of reason and of human conscience.

Why did I change my mind? Mainly I've been convinced of agnostic metaphysics, namely, that God cannot be proven to exist, and that there is nothing in this universe, no reasoned observations or logical thinking, which makes his existence more likely than not.

For instance, those who are religiously inclined offer the following conundrum: Everything that exists has been brought about by something previously existing, so necessarily something must have existed before the universe for there to have been a 'first cause'. Lacking any explanation, as science undoubtedly does, so must we allegedly deduce a divine or ,necessary' being. This is of course fallacious if all we are attempting to achieve is a rationalization of the irrational. It must be the height of contradiction to conclude the idea the universe has no starting cause - 'it just happened' - as being so unbelievable that one must instead turn to the idea of an all-seeing, omnipotent, omniscient being, existing outside time. If God needs no creator, then why does the universe? Both ideas being incredible are thus equally credible, and as such, reason cannot point us toward a Deity.

Specifically I also reject Christianity (especially my own Catholic faith) as a religion. If we read the Bible (especially the Old Testament) we must conclude that God is extremely violent and cruel, jealous, murderous, impetuous, peevish, possessive, threatening, irrational and misogynistic. If so I see no moral benefit in believing in such a God - a God that allows suffering, and indeed, causes it (Is God willing to prevent evil but unable? Then He is not omnipotent. Is He able but not willing? Then He is malevolent. Is He both willing and able? Then why does evil exist? Is He neither willing nor able? Then why call Him God?)

What of Christ? He was a profoundly moral and just man, and we can learn much from his teachings. But he appears to have glaring faults: he believed in Hell for those who dont follow Him: "whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven him neither in this world nor in the world to come". Eternal hell-fire for evil men is morally questionable, but eternal hell-fire for people who fail to believe, even if they are decent and just people? No man may claim to be humane and hold this view, and Christ held it most sincerely.

These criticisms of course necessarily presume Christianity can be taken seriously. In many ways even this is missing the point. What kind of religion begins by the debauching of a virgin by a ghost, and ends with an incoherent self-sacrifice (Jesus, who is God, died to appease the sins of humanity, to God - i.e. - Himself). There are my conclusions in a nutshell.

A final point - You know what really irritates me most? Those who say "you may not believe in God, but He believes in you". Such breathtaking arrogance and unquestioned superiority is precisely why I flip the bird to all those who waste their sunday mornings praising non-existent supranational beings, reciting childish fairy stories, following anachronistic and irrational superstitious creeds and conventions, and pretending barbaric and scientifically ridiculous texts are special and unchallengeable

You weren't a christian to begin with. God isn't merely rules, it is much more that you falied to comprehend.

[John]

feederband wrote: John wrote: nygreenguy wrote: John wrote:

I'm talking about how scientists automatically rule out anything supernatrual...even if the "evidence" is pointing in that direction. It is impossible for scientists to deal with the supernatural. Impossible. Its like you wanting microphones to pick up video. Also, who is to judge that the evidence points towards the "supernatural"? Couldnt the reverse be said for theists, they disregards science in favor of the supernatural even though the evidence "points that way"

It's only impossible if one has convinced themself that it is.

John, if something supernatural happens right in front of me do you think I would Deni it ?

They have happened right in front of me.

[feederband]

John wrote: feederband wrote: John wrote: nygreenguy wrote: John wrote:

I'm talking about how scientists automatically rule out anything supernatrual...even if the "evidence" is pointing in that direction. It is impossible for scientists to deal with the supernatural. Impossible. Its like you wanting microphones to pick up video. Also, who is to judge that the evidence points towards the "supernatural"? Couldnt the reverse be said for theists, they disregards science in favor of the supernatural even though the evidence "points that way"

It's only impossible if one has convinced themself that it is.

John, if something supernatural happens right in front of me do you think I would Deni it ?

They have happened right in front of me.

Cool...I guess you didn't get a pic or video taping...What were these happings by the way?

[John]

feederband wrote: John wrote: feederband wrote: John wrote: nygreenguy wrote: John wrote:

I'm talking about how scientists automatically rule out anything supernatrual...even if the "evidence" is pointing in that direction. It is impossible for scientists to deal with the supernatural. Impossible. Its like you wanting microphones to pick up video. Also, who is to judge that the evidence points towards the "supernatural"? Couldnt the reverse be said for theists, they disregards science in favor of the supernatural even though the evidence "points that way"

It's only impossible if one has convinced themself that it is.

John, if something supernatural happens right in front of me do you think I would Deni it ?

They have happened right in front of me.

Cool...I guess you didn't get a pic or video taping...What were these happings by the way?

I only share it with family and good friends. You won't believe me anyway.

[feederband]

John wrote: feederband wrote: John wrote: feederband wrote: John wrote: nygreenguy wrote: John wrote:

I'm talking about how scientists automatically rule out anything supernatrual...even if the "evidence" is pointing in that direction. It is impossible for scientists to deal with the supernatural. Impossible. Its like you wanting microphones to pick up video. Also, who is to judge that the evidence points towards the "supernatural"? Couldnt the reverse be said for theists, they disregards science in favor of the supernatural even though the evidence "points that way"

It's only impossible if one has convinced themself that it is.

John, if something supernatural happens right in front of me do you think I would Deni it ?

They have happened right in front of me.

Cool...I guess you didn't get a pic or video taping...What were these happings by the way?

I only share it with family and good friends. You won't believe me anyway.

Why wouldn't I believe it? What you holding onto turned out to be true I would no longer be a Atheist...Do you not think we would no if it was true... Why would you even care if I believed you or not...

[feederband]

How come every so -called supernatural events only have evidence like dark grainy pictures or out of focus videos ...Or I could tell you but you wont believe me....

[John]

feederband wrote: How come every so -called supernatural events only have evidence like dark grainy pictures or out of focus videos ...Or I could tell you but you wont believe me....

I dunno...but I ain't makin it up. *shrug*


You should do some research about Smith Wigglesworth..he was an Evangelical who would pray for people and they would be healed. There are recorded cases of actaul limbs growing back in front of everyones eyes.

[feederband]

John wrote: feederband wrote: How come every so -called supernatural events only have evidence like dark grainy pictures or out of focus videos ...Or I could tell you but you wont believe me....

I dunno...but I ain't makin it up. *shrug*


You should do some research about Smith Wigglesworth..he was an Evangelical who would pray for people and they would be healed. There are recorded cases of actaul limbs growing back in front of everyones eyes.

Now see... Now your talking...If I could see that I could believe in something... Limbs growning back right in front of your eyes ...I know there's got to be video of that..Or at least a before and after shot...

[mODULAR mAN]

John wrote: feederband wrote: How come every so -called supernatural events only have evidence like dark grainy pictures or out of focus videos ...Or I could tell you but you wont believe me....

I dunno...but I ain't makin it up. *shrug*


You should do some research about Smith Wigglesworth..he was an Evangelical who would pray for people and they would be healed. There are recorded cases of actaul limbs growing back in front of everyones eyes.

:shock: :lol: :roll: You are precious! I now know why you believe the Gospel writers! You'll believe anything if someone attributes it to your god-hypothesis!

PLease, provide sources for your claims. From now on, I will have to think you are either disingenuous or delluded. I know, I don't give you much "Wiggle" room! :lol:

Do you believe in pixies or ghosts, too?

[feederband]

John wrote: feederband wrote: How come every so -called supernatural events only have evidence like dark grainy pictures or out of focus videos ...Or I could tell you but you wont believe me....

I dunno...but I ain't makin it up. *shrug*


You should do some research about Smith Wigglesworth..he was an Evangelical who would pray for people and they would be healed. There are recorded cases of actaul limbs growing back in front of everyones eyes.

I tried John, but I could not find any real evidence of those claims...Just more hearsay....Do you have any good non bias links confirming these claims?

[John]

feederband wrote: John wrote: feederband wrote: How come every so -called supernatural events only have evidence like dark grainy pictures or out of focus videos ...Or I could tell you but you wont believe me....

I dunno...but I ain't makin it up. *shrug*


You should do some research about Smith Wigglesworth..he was an Evangelical who would pray for people and they would be healed. There are recorded cases of actaul limbs growing back in front of everyones eyes.

I tried John, but I could not find any real evidence of those claims...Just more hearsay....Do you have any good non bias links confirming these claims?

The only evidence is eye witness testimony.....which could be seen as pretty muched biased hearsay I guess.

[feederband]

John wrote: feederband wrote: John wrote: feederband wrote: How come every so -called supernatural events only have evidence like dark grainy pictures or out of focus videos ...Or I could tell you but you wont believe me....

I dunno...but I ain't makin it up. *shrug*


You should do some research about Smith Wigglesworth..he was an Evangelical who would pray for people and they would be healed. There are recorded cases of actaul limbs growing back in front of everyones eyes.

I tried John, but I could not find any real evidence of those claims...Just more hearsay....Do you have any good non bias links confirming these claims?

The only evidence is eye witness testimony.....which could be seen as pretty muched biased hearsay I guess.

The old eye-witness testimony....Too bad........

[The Central Scrutinizer]

John wrote: nygreenguy wrote: John wrote:

I'm talking about how scientists automatically rule out anything supernatrual...even if the "evidence" is pointing in that direction. It is impossible for scientists to deal with the supernatural. Impossible. Its like you wanting microphones to pick up video. Also, who is to judge that the evidence points towards the "supernatural"? Couldnt the reverse be said for theists, they disregards science in favor of the supernatural even though the evidence "points that way"

It's only impossible if one has convinced themself that it is.

It's impossible because science can only deal with the natural world. A supernatural explanation is, by definition, not a scientific explanation.

[thefranzkafkafront]

There is certainty in one thing, doubt.

[mODULAR mAN]

John wrote: feederband wrote: How come every so -called supernatural events only have evidence like dark grainy pictures or out of focus videos ...Or I could tell you but you wont believe me....

I dunno...but I ain't makin it up. *shrug*


You should do some research about Smith Wigglesworth..he was an Evangelical who would pray for people and they would be healed. There are recorded cases of actaul limbs growing back in front of everyones eyes.

Because he knows the "miracles" don't meet even basic rules of evidence and he's much happier with blind faith than to complicate things by discovering the truth.

[Shady]

The Central Scrutinizer wrote: John wrote: nygreenguy wrote: John wrote:

I'm talking about how scientists automatically rule out anything supernatrual...even if the "evidence" is pointing in that direction. It is impossible for scientists to deal with the supernatural. Impossible. Its like you wanting microphones to pick up video. Also, who is to judge that the evidence points towards the "supernatural"? Couldnt the reverse be said for theists, they disregards science in favor of the supernatural even though the evidence "points that way"

It's only impossible if one has convinced themself that it is.

It's impossible because science can only deal with the natural world. A supernatural explanation is, by definition, not a scientific explanation.

Correct. Intelligent Design MIGHT be the correct answer. But whether it's true or not it is still not science.