Political Crossfire Forums

[slitedeviance]

I was considering the three major religions talked about on this site (Islam, Christianity and Judaism) and how they share so many qualities (Abrahamic God, Prophets, belief in the one and only higher power regardless of name) then a thought occurred along the lines of...

The stories of the religions (Old Testament etc) share similair elements, in the same way that a trilogy of films do, a different spin if you will over the same basic principles repeated in each holy book.

If it can be proven that Jesus was around when he was, and Mohammed was around at the time, and the Israelites were enslaved by the Egyptians and so on, then we have some elements of proof that these parts of the story are true. Each seperate scripture contains truth, whether or not God exists, if at least some of these events can be accredited.

If thats the case then why would an Atheist be convinced that Judaism or Christianity is the right path. If I am accepting that there is only one God and he performed what is written in Judaism, why wouldn't it be proper for me to assume that Christianity is also correct as this must also be the voice of the one God. On that basis why wouldn't I turn round and accept that Islam, as the most recent installment of the words of the one God as the true path?

(I don't know if that's quite it, but it will have to do for now...)

[Wizard From Oz]

It is a very good question actually. Jewish writings have very specific descriptions of what the messiah would be like, how he acted etc. Put simply they dont feel that Jesus fits that bill.

With Islam they believe that Jesus spoke a lot of truth, but that truth was corrupted by man. For them, Jesus helped lay the path for Prophet.

For Christianity, they believe the word of Jesus as spoken through the four gospels is the only true word, hence that makes Islam irrelivant for them.

[/quote]

[nygreenguy]

slitedeviance wrote:

If thats the case then why would an Atheist be convinced that Judaism or Christianity is the right path. He wouldnt, he wouldnt be an atheist anymore! Quote: If I am accepting that there is only one God and he performed what is written in Judaism, Well, all 3 share common roots as being abrahamic religions. Christianity and Islam are spawns of that. Quote: why wouldn't it be proper for me to assume that Christianity is also correct as this must also be the voice of the one God. No because you must then accept Christ as well Quote: On that basis why wouldn't I turn round and accept that Islam, as the most recent installment of the words of the one God as the true path? An appeal to novelty? Newest doesnt mean right, or the best. Its also just an extension of Judaism, but requires some NEW beliefs. You must be convinced of the NEW beliefs before you can go from Judaism to Christianity or Islam.

(I don't know if that's quite it, but it will have to do for now...)[/quote]

[wormwood]

Quote: I was considering the three major religions talked about on this site (Islam, Christianity and Judaism) and how they share so many qualities (Abrahamic God, Prophets, belief in the one and only higher power regardless of name) then a thought occurred along the lines of...

The stories of the religions (Old Testament etc) share similair elements, in the same way that a trilogy of films do, a different spin if you will over the same basic principles repeated in each holy book.

If it can be proven that Jesus was around when he was, and Mohammed was around at the time, and the Israelites were enslaved by the Egyptians and so on, then we have some elements of proof that these parts of the story are true. Each seperate scripture contains truth, whether or not God exists, if at least some of these events can be accredited.

If thats the case then why would an Atheist be convinced that Judaism or Christianity is the right path. If I am accepting that there is only one God and he performed what is written in Judaism, why wouldn't it be proper for me to assume that Christianity is also correct as this must also be the voice of the one God. On that basis why wouldn't I turn round and accept that Islam, as the most recent installment of the words of the one God as the true path? Ok let's take your example of the trilogy. I am sure most people here have seen the original Star Wars trilogy. In the Star Wars trilogy, who was Darth Vader? Was he the Vader from the first movie or the last? The truth is, he was the same person in all 3, just in different stages of character development. If he seems different in one movie or another, it is simply your perception based on limited information about him. My point is, it is possible to be correct in your perception, but incorrect factually. For example, the Jews were waiting on a messiah who met certain criteria. When JC came along, he fulfilled around half or so(generous estimate). This is why the Jews did not think he was the messiah. In Christian reasoning, The role and personality of the messiah are broken in two, because there are some aspects that if fulfilled, would negate other aspects (being a warrior king, being a poor and peaceful servant of the people; Arriving in Jerusalem on a cloud, arriving on a donkey, etc etc). They think JC was all of the peaceful aspects, and upon his return he will be the warrior aspects. The Jews still await their warrior king. They both claim the other is wrong, but they are waiting on the same person. Which brings me to our third perception; Islam. Although, I can already hear angry protests against this, Mohamed could have very well been the warrior messiah that both groups were looking for. HE fulfills many of the prophecies about Shiloh that Jesus does not. He is the prophet with the sword and earthly power. One of the acts of the messiah is that he would gather the dispersed tribes of Israel unto the Holy Land. The restored nation of Israel was put in the heart of Muslim territory. There are other such instances that don't sound like fulfilled prophecy, but in a round about way, they are. The Muslims await the return of Jesus and Mohamed which would simultaneously fulfill all three religions (because all of the remaining Jewish prophecies could be completed at the same time). I am not saying this is the case, but it is possible that a perfect thing, seems imperfect when related by imperfect beings. It could be the case that all three religions are correct in their perceptions, but incorrect in a factual sense. Maybe they were each given only what they should have.

Sorry for the rant, I am merely pointing out that people see things in a certain way, and for them, that may be good enough, even if it isn't a complete picture. Since you are abandoning faith in the name of reason, you will most likely turn to the religion of science, and you will be in a very similar situation. How did the universe come into being? I don't know, it's just always been there. Eventually if you want answers you will have to turn to a man made institution, at which point you will be given an incomplete answer that you must take on faith, but for you, that might be good enough in that particular situation. I know this post is full of bad examples, but I hope the point was clear enough.

[Gilbert1908]

MG1962 wrote: It is a very good question actually. Jewish writings have very specific descriptions of what the messiah would be like, how he acted etc. Put simply they dont feel that Jesus fits that bill.

With Islam they believe that Jesus spoke a lot of truth, but that truth was corrupted by man. For them, Jesus helped lay the path for Prophet.

For Christianity, they believe the word of Jesus as spoken through the four gospels is the only true word, hence that makes Islam irrelivant for them.

[/quote]

If the Jews thought Jesus was who he said he was they would have become Christians.

There would be no Islam if Mohammad believed what Jesus had said about himself.

The Christians believe, not that Jesus spoke the only true word, but that Jesus was The Word, God incarnate, missing that little tid bit misses the entire point of Christianity.

If Jesus was indeed God what would be the argument that His Word was not the last Word????

If you don't believe Jesus was God you stay Jewish or you start your own religion 700 years after Christ's death and call it Islam.

Simple really.

[eynon]

wormwood wrote: Quote: I was considering the three major religions talked about on this site (Islam, Christianity and Judaism) and how they share so many qualities (Abrahamic God, Prophets, belief in the one and only higher power regardless of name) then a thought occurred along the lines of...

The stories of the religions (Old Testament etc) share similair elements, in the same way that a trilogy of films do, a different spin if you will over the same basic principles repeated in each holy book.

If it can be proven that Jesus was around when he was, and Mohammed was around at the time, and the Israelites were enslaved by the Egyptians and so on, then we have some elements of proof that these parts of the story are true. Each seperate scripture contains truth, whether or not God exists, if at least some of these events can be accredited.

If thats the case then why would an Atheist be convinced that Judaism or Christianity is the right path. If I am accepting that there is only one God and he performed what is written in Judaism, why wouldn't it be proper for me to assume that Christianity is also correct as this must also be the voice of the one God. On that basis why wouldn't I turn round and accept that Islam, as the most recent installment of the words of the one God as the true path? Ok let's take your example of the trilogy. I am sure most people here have seen the original Star Wars trilogy. In the Star Wars trilogy, who was Darth Vader? Was he the Vader from the first movie or the last? The truth is, he was the same person in all 3, just in different stages of character development. If he seems different in one movie or another, it is simply your perception based on limited information about him. My point is, it is possible to be correct in your perception, but incorrect factually. For example, the Jews were waiting on a messiah who met certain criteria. When JC came along, he fulfilled around half or so(generous estimate). This is why the Jews did not think he was the messiah. In Christian reasoning, The role and personality of the messiah are broken in two, because there are some aspects that if fulfilled, would negate other aspects (being a warrior king, being a poor and peaceful servant of the people; Arriving in Jerusalem on a cloud, arriving on a donkey, etc etc). They think JC was all of the peaceful aspects, and upon his return he will be the warrior aspects. The Jews still await their warrior king. They both claim the other is wrong, but they are waiting on the same person. Which brings me to our third perception; Islam. Although, I can already hear angry protests against this, Mohamed could have very well been the warrior messiah that both groups were looking for. HE fulfills many of the prophecies about Shiloh that Jesus does not. He is the prophet with the sword and earthly power. One of the acts of the messiah is that he would gather the dispersed tribes of Israel unto the Holy Land. The restored nation of Israel was put in the heart of Muslim territory. There are other such instances that don't sound like fulfilled prophecy, but in a round about way, they are. The Muslims await the return of Jesus and Mohamed which would simultaneously fulfill all three religions (because all of the remaining Jewish prophecies could be completed at the same time). I am not saying this is the case, but it is possible that a perfect thing, seems imperfect when related by imperfect beings. It could be the case that all three religions are correct in their perceptions, but incorrect in a factual sense. Maybe they were each given only what they should have.

Sorry for the rant, I am merely pointing out that people see things in a certain way, and for them, that may be good enough, even if it isn't a complete picture. Since you are abandoning faith in the name of reason, you will most likely turn to the religion of science, and you will be in a very similar situation. How did the universe come into being? I don't know, it's just always been there. Eventually if you want answers you will have to turn to a man made institution, at which point you will be given an incomplete answer that you must take on faith, but for you, that might be good enough in that particular situation. I know this post is full of bad examples, but I hope the point was clear enough.

very clear, I like your rants :)

I had no idea about Islams' beliefs regarding the return of Jesus and the 1000 kingdom until I started coming to this forum and talking to Muslims.........kinda spooky the parallels between both religions' end times scenarios.


You should've seen the expressions on everybody's face when I told my biblestudy about the similarities.....very :-|

[wormwood]

Quote: very clear, I like your rants
Well Thanks. Sometimes I have trouble expressing exactly what I am trying to say, and my abundant use of examples usually does more harm than good :lol:

Quote: I had no idea about Islams' beliefs regarding the return of Jesus and the 1000 kingdom until I started coming to this forum and talking to Muslims.........kinda spooky the parallels between both religions' end times scenarios.
It is very odd, because though few will admit it, it makes sense. How fitting that one group can be blind to the truth of another, because Christianity is based on that very concept. Personally, I think if God were going to give revelations to human beings, he would do so in a way that included as many people as possible. All 3 of the religions agree that God is mysterious and his will, hard to determine. Why then should we assume that we, and we alone (as one religious group or another), hold all of the correct answers about God?

Quote: You should've seen the expressions on everybody's face when I told my biblestudy about the similarities.....very :lol: Oh I've seen that look before. Obviously this isn't the most pleasing line of inquiry for some religious people, but I think it's important to discuss the possibilities.

[eynon]

wormwood wrote: Quote: very clear, I like your rants
Well Thanks. Sometimes I have trouble expressing exactly what I am trying to say, and my abundant use of examples usually does more harm than good :lol:

Quote: I had no idea about Islams' beliefs regarding the return of Jesus and the 1000 kingdom until I started coming to this forum and talking to Muslims.........kinda spooky the parallels between both religions' end times scenarios.
It is very odd, because though few will admit it, it makes sense. How fitting that one group can be blind to the truth of another, because Christianity is based on that very concept. Personally, I think if God were going to give revelations to human beings, he would do so in a way that included as many people as possible. All 3 of the religions agree that God is mysterious and his will, hard to determine. Why then should we assume that we, and we alone (as one religious group or another), hold all of the correct answers about God?

Quote: You should've seen the expressions on everybody's face when I told my biblestudy about the similarities.....very :lol: Oh I've seen that look before. Obviously this isn't the most pleasing line of inquiry for some religious people, but I think it's important to discuss the possibilities.

only G-d has a monopoly on truth......