Political Crossfire Forums

[Mighty Oak]

I thought I would start this with Prez. Woodrow Wilson

'I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men.

We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world, no longer a Government by free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and the vote of the majority,but a Government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men .' - Woodrow Wilson

Next:

FDR Memorial states:“Those who seek to establish systems of government based on the regimentation of all human beings by a handful of individual rulers, call this a New Order. It is not new and it is not order."
– Franklin Delano Roosevelt

IMO,this is very compelling stuff here.

If you want to debate if there is a NWO then go ahead and do that.I think it is quite evident that we are in a NWO right now just as we were in the days of Woodrow Wilson,

My question is,do you think the NWO is a good for humanity or bad for humanity?


My answer is that it is bad for humanity.I could get into details but for now I'll sum it up with Absolute power corrupts absolutely

[Medius]

Many political leaders have tried to warn us that the few are trying to wrest control from the many. Our government was built for the express purpose of trying to protect the many from the few. It is unfortunate that with a couple of constitutional amendments we can bring ourselves back to the mercy of the few.

Tying our governance to the economy brings us under undue influence by those who control the most money.

I'm not talking Jewish banker conspiracy here, but rather a selling of our representation to those who have the deepest pockets. We have given control of our money to the banks, which we were expressly warned about by our founding fathers. Our paychecks are taxed disproportionately which was expressly forbidden by our founding fathers. We've pretty well undone most every protection they gave to us. The war on terror may see the last few protections destroyed in the name of "safety".

I agree that what we face is neither new nor order. It is a return to the most basic economy of slave-like labor and a ruling class. The only thing new about it is the guise it takes. A hefty mix of capitalism with a strong dose of socialism and something immerges that looks like a utopian society but feels like corporatism.

I imagine that such a world is a ways off, probably a hell for our great, great, great grandchildren, but it will be us who is to blame for allowing it to happen. Every year that we allow our government to distort itself from its constitutional foundation, the possibility for peaceful reform becomes more remote.

[Wizard From Oz]

Quote: 'I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men.


Ahhh huh - very good, now tell those reading this what he was actually talking about

[Mighty Oak]

MG1962 wrote: Quote: 'I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men.


Ahhh huh - very good, now tell those reading this what he was actually talking about


He was talking about signing the Federal Reserve Act into law in 1913

What I win?

[Wizard From Oz]

Quote: FDR Memorial states:“Those who seek to establish systems of government based on the regimentation of all human beings by a handful of individual rulers, call this a New Order. It is not new and it is not order."
– Franklin Delano Roosevelt


Hmmmm - being naughty again. Why didn't you attribute the quote? Where did it come from, and what was he talking about?

[krims]

The only good world order is one with a smart and benevolent dictator. But all people are corrupted in some way, so we can never entrust anyone with too much power over us, there must always be checks and balances to keep people in place. If a vile person takes power in a country, through force or democratically, other nations should intervene based on concensus for the justice of the country's people. But of course you can't force freedom onto a people, so if they reject something offered to them, even if it's good, it shouldn't be forced on them because what they decide is good or not for them is their own problem. And if it is truly an honestly good deed, then the giver shouldn't expect praise or anything in return - his reward should be the knowledge that he did a good thing.

[Medius]

First, there's nothing wrong with this quote:

Woodrow Wilson wrote: I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated governments in the civilized world. No longer a government by free opinion, no longer a government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men.

The original post intended that it was in conjunction to the federal reserve. In it's entirety, this quote is simply more descriptive of the same idea being indicated.

FDR's quote, however, I believe was directed at the Axis if I remember correctly. I'm having trouble finding the quote in context. Of course that still doesn't make it inapplicable to the possible turning of our own government against us since Hitler's rise to power is a good example of the damage a single person can do in a system that hasnt' the necessary protections to keep him from doing so.

[Todd D.]

There's only one New World Order

[Medius]

Eisenhower, while not referring to any New World Order, gave us a warning in his farewell address to the nation.

He warned of the dangers that exist in having a large military complex and government controlled science without constant vigilance from the people.

http://www1.umn.edu/scitech/ike.htm

[Mighty Oak]

MG1962 wrote: Quote: FDR Memorial states:“Those who seek to establish systems of government based on the regimentation of all human beings by a handful of individual rulers, call this a New Order. It is not new and it is not order."
– Franklin Delano Roosevelt


Hmmmm - being naughty again. Why didn't you attribute the quote? Where did it come from, and what was he talking about? FDR spoke these words at the Address to the Annual Dinner for White House Correspondents' Association, Washington, D.C., March 15, 1941.

This is located in the 3rd room of the memorial.Each room represents 1 term of office,hence 4 rooms.

The 3rd term is synonymous with the Second World War.

As for what he was talking about,seeing as it was put into the 3rd room,one would believe it has to do with Hitler.When in reality it has to do with the idea of a NWO.
Many of Presidents and prominent people in power has uttered these words and not only approve but insist on seeing it through,now it is called Globalization.

[NAB]

Medius wrote: Eisenhower, while not referring to any New World Order, gave us a warning in his farewell address to the nation.

He warned of the dangers that exist in having a large military complex and government controlled science without constant vigilance from the people.

http://www1.umn.edu/scitech/ike.htm

But Ike wasn't referring to a New World Order conspiracy of the Elites, Illuminati or the like. He was referring to the ever growing power of the MIC that came to fruition after WW2. Something that has a momentum all it's own, but wasn't created by some mythical group.

I just finished reading Michael Crichton's "State of Fear" (mediocre airplane book), but he brought up the theory of how the MIC has been replaced by another amorphous group, Politico-Legal-Media (PLM) complex. It's just a theory in a work of fiction, but it holds a bit of merit in how our world runs today. Just many disparate groups trying to gain and maintain power, which his how humans have acted throughout their history.

Long-term Conspiracies over MANY different generations of people just doesn't resonate with me personally. There are too many variables involved to maintain and control something like that. Short term control is possible, but not over the long haul, which is why I think the concept of World Government is simply a non-starter, whether it was planned or just happened. It would tear itself apart not long after it's inception, primarily due to the self-interests of it's members: humans.

[psholtz]

NAB wrote: But Ike wasn't referring to a New World Order conspiracy of the Elites, Illuminati or the like. He was referring to the ever growing power of the MIC that came to fruition after WW2. Something that has a momentum all it's own, but wasn't created by some mythical group.
Would you not agree that the MIC was created by *something*?

Quote: Long-term Conspiracies over MANY different generations of people just doesn't resonate with me personally. There are too many variables involved to maintain and control something like that. Short term control is possible, but not over the long haul, which is why I think the concept of World Government is simply a non-starter, whether it was planned or just happened. It would tear itself apart not long after it's inception, primarily due to the self-interests of it's members: humans.
"Generations" is of course a relative term..

Does not the Bible record that the Patriarchs all lived to be hundreds of years old? Does not the Bible record that Melchizedek was w/o beginning nor end of days? As I've told you *repeatedly*, it's extremely important for you to stop judging other people by your own limited standards.. Just b/c your life expectancy is about 70 years does not mean that those who rule you live fleeting lives of 70 peasant-years.

It is unwise to impose your limitations upon those who are higher than you.. They wouldn't be "higher" than you if they were subject to the same limitations that constrain you.

[NAB]

psholtz wrote: NAB wrote: But Ike wasn't referring to a New World Order conspiracy of the Elites, Illuminati or the like. He was referring to the ever growing power of the MIC that came to fruition after WW2. Something that has a momentum all it's own, but wasn't created by some mythical group.
Would you not agree that the MIC was created by *something*?

Quote: Long-term Conspiracies over MANY different generations of people just doesn't resonate with me personally. There are too many variables involved to maintain and control something like that. Short term control is possible, but not over the long haul, which is why I think the concept of World Government is simply a non-starter, whether it was planned or just happened. It would tear itself apart not long after it's inception, primarily due to the self-interests of it's members: humans.
"Generations" is of course a relative term..

Does not the Bible record that the Patriarchs all lived to be hundreds of years old? Does not the Bible record that Melchizedek was w/o beginning nor end of days? As I've told you *repeatedly*, it's extremely important for you to stop judging other people by your own limited standards.. Just b/c your life expectancy is about 70 years does not mean that those who rule you live fleeting lives of 70 peasant-years.

It is unwise to impose your limitations upon those who are higher than you.. They wouldn't be "higher" than you if they were subject to the same limitations that constrain you.

The MIC was a self-fulfilling entity. It's creation came about by necessity in WW2, and, as with all money making ventures, it tries to maintain it's business.

As to the rest, meh... The bible references mean very little to me personally, so have at them. As to imposing limted standards, I'll consider the source.

Not necessarily in the mood for another circular pissing match with you this week. They're about as fulfilling as eating cotton candy. :wink:

[psholtz]

NAB wrote: Not necessarily in the mood for another circular pissing match with you this week. They're about as fulfilling as eating cotton candy. :wink:
All things considered, I'll take that as a compliment... :lol:

There are worse things in the world than eating cotton candy... :-D

[NAB]

psholtz wrote: NAB wrote: Not necessarily in the mood for another circular pissing match with you this week. They're about as fulfilling as eating cotton candy. :wink:
All things considered, I'll take that as a compliment... :lol:

There are worse things in the world than eating cotton candy... :-D

Anything to make you use at smiley. 8:)

[Medius]

NAB wrote: Medius wrote: Eisenhower, while not referring to any New World Order, gave us a warning in his farewell address to the nation.

He warned of the dangers that exist in having a large military complex and government controlled science without constant vigilance from the people.

http://www1.umn.edu/scitech/ike.htm

But Ike wasn't referring to a New World Order conspiracy of the Elites, Illuminati or the like. He was referring to the ever growing power of the MIC that came to fruition after WW2. Something that has a momentum all it's own, but wasn't created by some mythical group.

Agreed, I wasn't intending to suggest that his warnings referred to any Elites, simply the danger of government falling victim to those seeking power. While such powers could be elites, the could be super-intelligent monkeys or just an over-zealous artist.

NAB wrote:
I just finished reading Michael Crichton's "State of Fear" (mediocre airplane book), but he brought up the theory of how the MIC has been replaced by another amorphous group, Politico-Legal-Media (PLM) complex. It's just a theory in a work of fiction, but it holds a bit of merit in how our world runs today. Just many disparate groups trying to gain and maintain power, which his how humans have acted throughout their history.

An interesting theory and logically it would make sense that if a single entity exists that is driving for power that others do as well.

NAB wrote:
Long-term Conspiracies over MANY different generations of people just doesn't resonate with me personally. There are too many variables involved to maintain and control something like that. Short term control is possible, but not over the long haul, which is why I think the concept of World Government is simply a non-starter, whether it was planned or just happened. It would tear itself apart not long after it's inception, primarily due to the self-interests of it's members: humans.

Here I might disagree. If a group of conspirators (or several groups) exist, a drive for self-interest can still include a greater plan. If such a group has remained predominately hidden then it stands to reason that they understand their limitations and work within them to expand those limitations. Over a long period of time a result can be achieved.

Our own country was the result of a conspiracy of men who sought to create something for their immediate benefit, but also something that would survive beyond them and serve the American people. It was both self-serving and a plan for a greater goal.

[cap'n queasy]

NAB wrote: psholtz wrote: NAB wrote: But Ike wasn't referring to a New World Order conspiracy of the Elites, Illuminati or the like. He was referring to the ever growing power of the MIC that came to fruition after WW2. Something that has a momentum all it's own, but wasn't created by some mythical group.
Would you not agree that the MIC was created by *something*?

Quote: Long-term Conspiracies over MANY different generations of people just doesn't resonate with me personally. There are too many variables involved to maintain and control something like that. Short term control is possible, but not over the long haul, which is why I think the concept of World Government is simply a non-starter, whether it was planned or just happened. It would tear itself apart not long after it's inception, primarily due to the self-interests of it's members: humans.
"Generations" is of course a relative term..

Does not the Bible record that the Patriarchs all lived to be hundreds of years old? Does not the Bible record that Melchizedek was w/o beginning nor end of days? As I've told you *repeatedly*, it's extremely important for you to stop judging other people by your own limited standards.. Just b/c your life expectancy is about 70 years does not mean that those who rule you live fleeting lives of 70 peasant-years.

It is unwise to impose your limitations upon those who are higher than you.. They wouldn't be "higher" than you if they were subject to the same limitations that constrain you.

The MIC was a self-fulfilling entity. It's creation came about by necessity in WW2, and, as with all money making ventures, it tries to maintain it's business.

As to the rest, meh... The bible references mean very little to me personally, so have at them. As to imposing limted standards, I'll consider the source.

Not necessarily in the mood for another circular pissing match with you this week. They're about as fulfilling as eating cotton candy. :wink:

He's trying to tell you that these "elites" live centuries running their empire, without actually saying it. :-D

[NAB]

Medius wrote: NAB wrote: Medius wrote: Eisenhower, while not referring to any New World Order, gave us a warning in his farewell address to the nation.

He warned of the dangers that exist in having a large military complex and government controlled science without constant vigilance from the people.

http://www1.umn.edu/scitech/ike.htm

But Ike wasn't referring to a New World Order conspiracy of the Elites, Illuminati or the like. He was referring to the ever growing power of the MIC that came to fruition after WW2. Something that has a momentum all it's own, but wasn't created by some mythical group.

Agreed, I wasn't intending to suggest that his warnings referred to any Elites, simply the danger of government falling victim to those seeking power. While such powers could be elites, the could be super-intelligent monkeys or just an over-zealous artist.

NAB wrote:
I just finished reading Michael Crichton's "State of Fear" (mediocre airplane book), but he brought up the theory of how the MIC has been replaced by another amorphous group, Politico-Legal-Media (PLM) complex. It's just a theory in a work of fiction, but it holds a bit of merit in how our world runs today. Just many disparate groups trying to gain and maintain power, which his how humans have acted throughout their history.

An interesting theory and logically it would make sense that if a single entity exists that is driving for power that others do as well.

NAB wrote:
Long-term Conspiracies over MANY different generations of people just doesn't resonate with me personally. There are too many variables involved to maintain and control something like that. Short term control is possible, but not over the long haul, which is why I think the concept of World Government is simply a non-starter, whether it was planned or just happened. It would tear itself apart not long after it's inception, primarily due to the self-interests of it's members: humans.

Here I might disagree. If a group of conspirators (or several groups) exist, a drive for self-interest can still include a greater plan. If such a group has remained predominately hidden then it stands to reason that they understand their limitations and work within them to expand those limitations. Over a long period of time a result can be achieved.

Our own country was the result of a conspiracy of men who sought to create something for their immediate benefit, but also something that would survive beyond them and serve the American people. It was both self-serving and a plan for a greater goal.

Firstly, I'd like to thank you for a thoughtful reply in this forum.

As far as the PLM theory I mentioned earlier, there was a bibliography at the end of the book that had some references that had me interested. I'll go dig into it and see what non-fiction work has been done in that area. It was a wholly plausible theory, when seen in light of the MIC, which I DO believe exists and influences policy. Have you seen the film "Why We Fight?". If not, you should check it out.

In response to you later comment. I think I'm going to have to agree to disagree with you on that one. The setting up of a form of government for the good of common people can carry on generations later due to the nature of it's goals. Power grabbing and control have always been attempted and succedded throughout history, but they don't last long, and even more so in the modern era. This is why I mentioned that a One World Government wouldn't survive IF it ever came to fruition. The human race has too many competing ethnicities, religions, cultural biases, etc., to ever be held under one banner for long, especially when some of these said differences have roots thousands of years length.

Maybe I'm just an internal optimist, who knows. :wink:

[NAB]

cap'n queasy wrote: NAB wrote: psholtz wrote: NAB wrote: But Ike wasn't referring to a New World Order conspiracy of the Elites, Illuminati or the like. He was referring to the ever growing power of the MIC that came to fruition after WW2. Something that has a momentum all it's own, but wasn't created by some mythical group.
Would you not agree that the MIC was created by *something*?

Quote: Long-term Conspiracies over MANY different generations of people just doesn't resonate with me personally. There are too many variables involved to maintain and control something like that. Short term control is possible, but not over the long haul, which is why I think the concept of World Government is simply a non-starter, whether it was planned or just happened. It would tear itself apart not long after it's inception, primarily due to the self-interests of it's members: humans.
"Generations" is of course a relative term..

Does not the Bible record that the Patriarchs all lived to be hundreds of years old? Does not the Bible record that Melchizedek was w/o beginning nor end of days? As I've told you *repeatedly*, it's extremely important for you to stop judging other people by your own limited standards.. Just b/c your life expectancy is about 70 years does not mean that those who rule you live fleeting lives of 70 peasant-years.

It is unwise to impose your limitations upon those who are higher than you.. They wouldn't be "higher" than you if they were subject to the same limitations that constrain you.

The MIC was a self-fulfilling entity. It's creation came about by necessity in WW2, and, as with all money making ventures, it tries to maintain it's business.

As to the rest, meh... The bible references mean very little to me personally, so have at them. As to imposing limted standards, I'll consider the source.

Not necessarily in the mood for another circular pissing match with you this week. They're about as fulfilling as eating cotton candy. :wink:

He's trying to tell you that these "elites" live centuries running their empire, without actually saying it. :-D

Yes, and I just veered around it for his sake. I'm not that mean. :wink:

[Medius]

NAB wrote: Firstly, I'd like to thank you for a thoughtful reply in this forum.

Debate without civility is fighting. Discussion without the willingness of consideration is mutual ranting. Fighting and ranting only work to build furor in those who have already taken your own viewpoint.

I personally enjoy debate and discussion. To be honest though, I have, in the past had meaningful discussions and debates here. Unfortunately, some would rather come to this forum and berate those who are expressing their own beliefs, whether right or wrong. Some of the very civil people here have been pushed to the point that it is difficult to have a meaningful discourse.

NAB wrote:
As far as the PLM theory I mentioned earlier, there was a bibliography at the end of the book that had some references that had me interested. I'll go dig into it and see what non-fiction work has been done in that area. It was a wholly plausible theory, when seen in light of the MIC, which I DO believe exists and influences policy. Have you seen the film "Why We Fight?". If not, you should check it out.

I haven't, I'll have to check it out. I'll also check out the PLM theories. My primary concern isn't conspiracies (or rather any specific conspiracy), but rather the tools we allow for those who would grab for power, by conspiracy or otherwise. In otherwords, I think it is healthy to assume that all power we relinquish to the government will be eventually abused.

NAB wrote:
In response to you later comment. I think I'm going to have to agree to disagree with you on that one. The setting up of a form of government for the good of common people can carry on generations later due to the nature of it's goals. Power grabbing and control have always been attempted and succedded throughout history, but they don't last long, and even more so in the modern era. This is why I mentioned that a One World Government wouldn't survive IF it ever came to fruition. The human race has too many competing ethnicities, religions, cultural biases, etc., to ever be held under one banner for long, especially when some of these said differences have roots thousands of years length.

Maybe I'm just an internal optimist, who knows.

I can respect your disagreement. I am hesitant to throw out any posibility of political abuse. While it may seem unlikely to have such lofty goals from a self-serving source, it isn't an unknown concept. When a person puts into place such conspiracies as might take twenty or thirty years to complete, to build a self-serving lifestyle to last the remainder of their days, you are talking about plans that could possibly run fifty to seventy-five years. Some of those that serve themselves also seek to pass on their legacy in their children and so will plan for two lifetimes.

I suppose I don't find it hard to believe that a plan spanning such years couldn't be taken up by the next generation of those who have profited from prior plans towards the purpose of continuing and expanding for their own lives and their own children. For a nation being just over 200 years old, I guess it wouldn't seem that odd to me that a conspiracy could have passed such time.

Now, of course I am talking possibility, not probability. I take probability into account when looking to the future. That is, if a conspiracy can exist and can do certain things that could enslave or destory mankind, then it is simply a matter of time until they do. Any infinately small probability when taken over infinite years, becomes a probability of 1.

The more tools we create and the more power we divest, the greater we push the probability that someone will take that power and use it against us. Every precidence we allow now is one fact of life that our children have to live with.