Political Crossfire Forums

[Magorion]

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: Sure it is. Hitler came to power through big corporations,

Hitler came to power by way of a socialists workers party fighting in the the streets.

He ruled everything in Germany with a iron fist for the "good of the German worker".


No, he came to power because the corporations supported him. In power, Hitler weakened the unions and introduced foreign slave labour, not exactly for "the good of the German worker".

[Magorion]

Anarko-Kapitalizt wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: Sure it is. Hitler came to power through big corporations,

Hitler came to power by way of a socialists workers party fighting in the the streets.

He ruled everything in Germany with a iron fist for the "good of the German worker".

If Germany wasn't a welfare state, I don't know if Hitler would have been able to rise to power so quickly and easily.

Yes, Germany was a welfare state before Nazism, but it was a weird blend of extremist right-wing fascism, lessaiz faire capitalism and a welfare state after the Nazis took over.

[Magorion]

psholtz wrote: Magorion wrote: Corporate big shots were after all the main force in getting the NSDAP into power in the first place. Hitler made sure EG Farben, IBM, Ford, GE, GM, Esso and Coca Cola could conduct their business in peace in the Nazi Reich, while Jewish shops and banks were scrutinised and were taken away from their owners.
It's mathematically impossible for corporations to exist w/o socialism..

Corporations are one of the most vicious and virulent expressions of socialism that exist.

Corporate welfare is just as real and deadly as "personal" welfare..

Naziism was little more than corporate welfare on a vast, vast scale.

Uh, that's a very interesting theory.... would you care to elaborate?

[Magorion]

cap'n queasy wrote: Additionally, in a socialist economy there is no private investment. Ergo no corporations.

Exactly! And in Nazi Germany, big corporations could invest pretty much to an unlimited degree, as long as they weren't Jewish or associated with Jews.

[Magorion]

cap'n queasy wrote: Anarko-Kapitalizt wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: Sure it is. Hitler came to power through big corporations,

Hitler came to power by way of a socialists workers party fighting in the the streets.

He ruled everything in Germany with a iron fist for the "good of the German worker".

If Germany wasn't a welfare state, I don't know if Hitler would have been able to rise to power so quickly and easily.

Social democracy always transforms into a totalitarian state. When they begin to fail, as they are destined to, a strong leader will be called for to hold the social fabric together.

Read Friedrich Hayek's "Road to Serfdom". He explains the process in detail.

That's total BS. Social democracies are - through the board - the best nations on earth, on living standards, health care, GDP and stability. There is no rule that says that such a good society will inevitably crumble. Only envious neo conservatives would describe to the thought that all social democracies are doomed to fail, because they are different from the US.

[Anarko-Kapitalizt]

FinnMacCool wrote: The Impeacher wrote: cap'n queasy wrote:
What say you now?

That you don't know the differnce between a social democracy and democratic socialism.

And, apparently, you don't understand what a free market is, either.

I thought Democratic Socialism and Social Democracy were interchangable words.

Same here.

[Magorion]

cap'n queasy wrote: Capitalism generates plenty of revenue to survive. Social Democracy does not. It ruins business as it destroys the free market.

That is total BS! Here:

http://www.euractiv.com/en/innovation/eu-nordic-beat-us-competitiveness-challenge/article-158217

[Magorion]

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: Are you suggesting that Nazi's were practicing a "leftist" nationalism? If you are, I will never agree with you, ever.

Only because the facts upset your sensibilities.

Let's take a look at the Nazi Party political platform.

Quote: The full text of the 25 point program is as follows:

We demand the unification of all Germans in the Greater Germany on the basis of the right of self-determination of peoples.
We demand equality of rights for the German people in respect to the other nations; abrogation of the peace treaties of Versailles and St. Germain.
We demand land and territory (colonies) for the sustenance of our people, and colonization for our surplus population.
Only a member of the race can be a citizen. A member of the race can only be one who is of German blood, without consideration of creed. Consequently no Jew can be a member of the race.
Whoever has no citizenship is to be able to live in Germany only as a guest, and must be under the authority of legislation for foreigners.
The right to determine matters concerning administration and law belongs only to the citizen. Therefore we demand that every public office, of any sort whatsoever, whether in the Reich, the county or municipality, be filled only by citizens. We combat the corrupting parliamentary economy, office-holding only according to party inclinations without consideration of character or abilities.
We demand that the state be charged first with providing the opportunity for a livelihood and way of life for the citizens. If it is impossible to sustain the total population of the State, then the members of foreign nations (non-citizens) are to be expelled from the Reich.
Any further immigration of non-citizens is to be prevented. We demand that all non-Germans, who have immigrated to Germany since the 2 August 1914, be forced immediately to leave the Reich.
All citizens must have equal rights and obligations.
The first obligation of every citizen must be to work both spiritually and physically. The activity of individuals is not to counteract the interests of the universality, but must have its result within the framework of the whole for the benefit of all Consequently we demand:
Abolition of unearned (work and labour) incomes. Breaking of rent-slavery.
In consideration of the monstrous sacrifice in property and blood that each war demands of the people personal enrichment through a war must be designated as a crime against the people. Therefore we demand the total confiscation of all war profits.
We demand the nationalisation of all (previous) associated industries (trusts).
We demand a division of profits of all heavy industries.
We demand an expansion on a large scale of old age welfare.
We demand the creation of a healthy middle class and its conservation, immediate communalization of the great warehouses and their being leased at low cost to small firms, the utmost consideration of all small firms in contracts with the State, county or municipality.
We demand a land reform suitable to our needs, provision of a law for the free expropriation of land for the purposes of public utility, abolition of taxes on land and prevention of all speculation in land.
We demand struggle without consideration against those whose activity is injurious to the general interest. Common national criminals, usurers, Schieber and so forth are to be punished with death, without consideration of confession or race.
We demand substitution of a German common law in place of the Roman Law serving a materialistic world-order.
The state is to be responsible for a fundamental reconstruction of our whole national education program, to enable every capable and industrious German to obtain higher education and subsequently introduction into leading positions. The plans of instruction of all educational institutions are to conform with the experiences of practical life. The comprehension of the concept of the State must be striven for by the school [Staatsbuergerkunde] as early as the beginning of understanding. We demand the education at the expense of the State of outstanding intellectually gifted children of poor parents without consideration of position or profession.
The State is to care for the elevating national health by protecting the mother and child, by outlawing child-labor, by the encouragement of physical fitness, by means of the legal establishment of a gymnastic and sport obligation, by the utmost support of all organizations concerned with the physical instruction of the young.
We demand abolition of the mercenary troops and formation of a national army.
We demand legal opposition to known lies and their promulgation through the press. In order to enable the provision of a German press, we demand, that: a. All writers and employees of the newspapers appearing in the German language be members of the race: b. Non-German newspapers be required to have the express permission of the State to be published. They may not be printed in the German language: c. Non-Germans are forbidden by law any financial interest in German publications, or any influence on them, and as punishment for violations the closing of such a publication as well as the immediate expulsion from the Reich of the non-German concerned. Publications which are counter to the general good are to be forbidden. We demand legal prosecution of artistic and literary forms which exert a destructive influence on our national life, and the closure of organizations opposing the above made demands.
We demand freedom of religion for all religious denominations within the state so long as they do not endanger its existence or oppose the moral senses of the Germanic race. The Party as such advocates the standpoint of a positive Christianity without binding itself confessionally to any one denomination. It combats the Jewish-materialistic spirit within and around us, and is convinced that a lasting recovery of our nation can only succeed from within on the framework: common utility precedes individual utility.
For the execution of all of this we demand the formation of a strong central power in the Reich. Unlimited authority of the central parliament over the whole Reich and its organizations in general. The forming of state and profession chambers for the execution of the laws made by the Reich within the various states of the confederation. The leaders of the Party promise, if necessary by sacrificing their own lives, to support by the execution of the points set forth above without consideration.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_Program


At least ten of these points are clearly pro-labor. And every one of them is a form of collectvism. Individualism did not exist in Nazi Germany. Individualism is the foundation of right wing classical liberal ideology.
Quote: "The program championed the right to employment and called for the institution of profit sharing, confiscation of war profits, prosecution of userers and profiteers, nationalization of trusts, communalization of department stores, extension of the old-age pension system, creation of a national education program of all classes, prohibition of child labor, and an end to the dominance of investment capital."

What say you now?

The party programme is from before the fascists took over the NSDAP and purged the socialist elements in the party.

[The Impeacher]

Anarko-Kapitalizt wrote: FinnMacCool wrote: The Impeacher wrote: cap'n queasy wrote:
What say you now?

That you don't know the differnce between a social democracy and democratic socialism.

And, apparently, you don't understand what a free market is, either.

I thought Democratic Socialism and Social Democracy were interchangable words.

Same here.

Why is or would a social democracy be entirely socialist? Why would that necessarily occur?

Learn up boys:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy

That you don't seem to realize that the NSDAP party's main rival was the SDP is quite disturding to me, frankly. I lost some distant relatives during the purge, they were social democrats and their party was the SDP.

[Anarko-Kapitalizt]

The Impeacher wrote: Anarko-Kapitalizt wrote: FinnMacCool wrote: The Impeacher wrote: cap'n queasy wrote:
What say you now?

That you don't know the differnce between a social democracy and democratic socialism.

And, apparently, you don't understand what a free market is, either.

I thought Democratic Socialism and Social Democracy were interchangable words.

Same here.

Why is or wold a social democracy be entirely socialist? Why would that necessarily occur?

Learn up boys:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy

That you don't seem to realize that the NSDAP party's main rival was the SDP is quite disturding to me, frankly. I lost some distant relatives during the purge.

Oh I see, Social Democracy doesn't want to totally dismantle capitalism.

[The Impeacher]

bingo

[cap'n queasy]

Magorion wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: Are you suggesting that Nazi's were practicing a "leftist" nationalism? If you are, I will never agree with you, ever.

Only because the facts upset your sensibilities.

Let's take a look at the Nazi Party political platform.

Quote: The full text of the 25 point program is as follows:

We demand the unification of all Germans in the Greater Germany on the basis of the right of self-determination of peoples.
We demand equality of rights for the German people in respect to the other nations; abrogation of the peace treaties of Versailles and St. Germain.
We demand land and territory (colonies) for the sustenance of our people, and colonization for our surplus population.
Only a member of the race can be a citizen. A member of the race can only be one who is of German blood, without consideration of creed. Consequently no Jew can be a member of the race.
Whoever has no citizenship is to be able to live in Germany only as a guest, and must be under the authority of legislation for foreigners.
The right to determine matters concerning administration and law belongs only to the citizen. Therefore we demand that every public office, of any sort whatsoever, whether in the Reich, the county or municipality, be filled only by citizens. We combat the corrupting parliamentary economy, office-holding only according to party inclinations without consideration of character or abilities.
We demand that the state be charged first with providing the opportunity for a livelihood and way of life for the citizens. If it is impossible to sustain the total population of the State, then the members of foreign nations (non-citizens) are to be expelled from the Reich.
Any further immigration of non-citizens is to be prevented. We demand that all non-Germans, who have immigrated to Germany since the 2 August 1914, be forced immediately to leave the Reich.
All citizens must have equal rights and obligations.
The first obligation of every citizen must be to work both spiritually and physically. The activity of individuals is not to counteract the interests of the universality, but must have its result within the framework of the whole for the benefit of all Consequently we demand:
Abolition of unearned (work and labour) incomes. Breaking of rent-slavery.
In consideration of the monstrous sacrifice in property and blood that each war demands of the people personal enrichment through a war must be designated as a crime against the people. Therefore we demand the total confiscation of all war profits.
We demand the nationalisation of all (previous) associated industries (trusts).
We demand a division of profits of all heavy industries.
We demand an expansion on a large scale of old age welfare.
We demand the creation of a healthy middle class and its conservation, immediate communalization of the great warehouses and their being leased at low cost to small firms, the utmost consideration of all small firms in contracts with the State, county or municipality.
We demand a land reform suitable to our needs, provision of a law for the free expropriation of land for the purposes of public utility, abolition of taxes on land and prevention of all speculation in land.
We demand struggle without consideration against those whose activity is injurious to the general interest. Common national criminals, usurers, Schieber and so forth are to be punished with death, without consideration of confession or race.
We demand substitution of a German common law in place of the Roman Law serving a materialistic world-order.
The state is to be responsible for a fundamental reconstruction of our whole national education program, to enable every capable and industrious German to obtain higher education and subsequently introduction into leading positions. The plans of instruction of all educational institutions are to conform with the experiences of practical life. The comprehension of the concept of the State must be striven for by the school [Staatsbuergerkunde] as early as the beginning of understanding. We demand the education at the expense of the State of outstanding intellectually gifted children of poor parents without consideration of position or profession.
The State is to care for the elevating national health by protecting the mother and child, by outlawing child-labor, by the encouragement of physical fitness, by means of the legal establishment of a gymnastic and sport obligation, by the utmost support of all organizations concerned with the physical instruction of the young.
We demand abolition of the mercenary troops and formation of a national army.
We demand legal opposition to known lies and their promulgation through the press. In order to enable the provision of a German press, we demand, that: a. All writers and employees of the newspapers appearing in the German language be members of the race: b. Non-German newspapers be required to have the express permission of the State to be published. They may not be printed in the German language: c. Non-Germans are forbidden by law any financial interest in German publications, or any influence on them, and as punishment for violations the closing of such a publication as well as the immediate expulsion from the Reich of the non-German concerned. Publications which are counter to the general good are to be forbidden. We demand legal prosecution of artistic and literary forms which exert a destructive influence on our national life, and the closure of organizations opposing the above made demands.
We demand freedom of religion for all religious denominations within the state so long as they do not endanger its existence or oppose the moral senses of the Germanic race. The Party as such advocates the standpoint of a positive Christianity without binding itself confessionally to any one denomination. It combats the Jewish-materialistic spirit within and around us, and is convinced that a lasting recovery of our nation can only succeed from within on the framework: common utility precedes individual utility.
For the execution of all of this we demand the formation of a strong central power in the Reich. Unlimited authority of the central parliament over the whole Reich and its organizations in general. The forming of state and profession chambers for the execution of the laws made by the Reich within the various states of the confederation. The leaders of the Party promise, if necessary by sacrificing their own lives, to support by the execution of the points set forth above without consideration.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_Program


At least ten of these points are clearly pro-labor. And every one of them is a form of collectvism. Individualism did not exist in Nazi Germany. Individualism is the foundation of right wing classical liberal ideology.
Quote: "The program championed the right to employment and called for the institution of profit sharing, confiscation of war profits, prosecution of userers and profiteers, nationalization of trusts, communalization of department stores, extension of the old-age pension system, creation of a national education program of all classes, prohibition of child labor, and an end to the dominance of investment capital."

What say you now?

The party programme is from before the fascists took over the NSDAP and purged the socialist elements in the party.

:lol: Fascism is a variant of socialism itself. This is the pattern that the disintegration of social democracy is forced to take. It's a graphic exmple of the "Road to Serfdom"

Perhaps this graphic will help you comprehend the subject.

http://www.mises.org/TRTS.htm

[cap'n queasy]

Magorion wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Capitalism generates plenty of revenue to survive. Social Democracy does not. It ruins business as it destroys the free market.

That is total BS! Here:

http://www.euractiv.com/en/innovation/eu-nordic-beat-us-competitiveness-challenge/article-158217

Sorry, I have to take the word of a Nobel Prize winning economist who lived in Germany at the time social democracy failed there, FR Hayek, over that.

[Magorion]

cap'n queasy wrote: :lol: Fascism is a variant of socialism itself. This is the pattern that the disintegration of social democracy is forced to take. It's a graphic exmple of the "Road to Serfdom"

Perhaps this graphic will help you comprehend the subject.

http://www.mises.org/TRTS.htm

Fascism is extremist right-wing. There is virtually universal consensus about that.

[Magorion]

cap'n queasy wrote: Magorion wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Capitalism generates plenty of revenue to survive. Social Democracy does not. It ruins business as it destroys the free market.

That is total BS! Here:

http://www.euractiv.com/en/innovation/eu-nordic-beat-us-competitiveness-challenge/article-158217

Sorry, I have to take the word of a Nobel Prize winning economist who lived in Germany at the time social democracy failed there, FR Hayek, over that.

Could you show me where he wrote about it?

[BobbyO]

Quote: After the election win in 1933, Hitler and the fascists started purging the party of its socialist members. Look up Ernst Röhm and the SA.

Rohm differed from Hitler in tactics, not ideology. He and the SA believed in Aryan superiority, the need for German living space to the east, and were of course anti-semitic with a desire to eradicate the Jews from society. A National Socialist Germany under Rohm would have developed with no substantial differences than it actually did under Hitler.

Quote: Hitler made sure to strengthen the business ties with foreign companies, as well as domestic companies.

The National Socialists made those efforts indeed. But they largely failed, until 1929.

Quote: The corporations in the United States, Austria, Switzerland and within Germany, were very pleased with Hitler's pro-business policies. Corporate big shots were after all the main force in getting the NSDAP into power in the first place.

This is not entirely so. Nazi economic policy made it extremely difficult for German business to trade goods out of the country. In fact, german big business was howling mad with the nazis by 1935, but Hitler did not care. The purpose of industry, according to the nazis, was to provide needed goods to the state. Whether or not profits was of no interest to the nazi.

Corporate big shots were NOT, in fact, responsible for putting the nazis in power. Indeed, german industry gave little money to the nazis, until the nazis swept the Reichtag elections and won 108 seats.

Quote: Hitler also made sure to weaken the unions, so that the workers couldn't do as much damage when or if they found out that the Reich was using slave labour, marginalising the need for the paid worker and causing them nothing but misery.

Union membership was mandatory in nazi Germany. Germasn workers knew that under the National Socialists that they could not be fired, or have their wages cut, without state approval. owners of smaller industries knew that larger industries could not expand, with out state approval. The lot of the German worker was of course worse under the nazis (excluding the obviousness of the war). But as National Socilaist germany was a socialist state, such a development was to be expected. That the workers were in worse shape is in no way an argument that the nazi regime was not socialist.

Quote: Programmes such as Lebensborn was set into effect so that women would stay at home or in clinics popping out "Aryan" babies, while the men were fighing for the Homeland (Heimatland).

The same sort of thing was seen in other socialist regimes.

Quote: It's a myth that Nazis hated Christianity. In fact, in thir platform they state that they did not oppose the Christian religion, apart from the "Jewish materialism" within it.

They supported a "positive" Christianity, which meant a Christianity which justified National Socialism. As a result, they sought to eradicate the differences between the Catholics and Lutheran faith. Hitler was not religious (when sworn in as Chancellor, he refused to attend the traditional interfaith religious service marking the begining of a new government).

[BobbyO]

Magorion wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Additionally, in a socialist economy there is no private investment. Ergo no corporations.

Exactly! And in Nazi Germany, big corporations could invest pretty much to an unlimited degree, as long as they weren't Jewish or associated with Jews.

The socialist parties of Scandinavia do not oppose investment. ergo, there are corporations.

Perhaps the National Socilaists were "advanced" socialists, a point argued by Hayek.

[BobbyO]

Magorion wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: Sure it is. Hitler came to power through big corporations,

Hitler came to power by way of a socialists workers party fighting in the the streets.

He ruled everything in Germany with a iron fist for the "good of the German worker".


No, he came to power because the corporations supported him. In power, Hitler weakened the unions and introduced foreign slave labour, not exactly for "the good of the German worker".

Slave labor was also seen in the USSR. The reason was the same- a socialist economy is a sclerotic economy, and cannot produce what is needed. As a result, workers need to be found elsewhere. And since capitalism is abhorred, the options available a few.

[cap'n queasy]

Magorion wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Magorion wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Capitalism generates plenty of revenue to survive. Social Democracy does not. It ruins business as it destroys the free market.

That is total BS! Here:

http://www.euractiv.com/en/innovation/eu-nordic-beat-us-competitiveness-challenge/article-158217

Sorry, I have to take the word of a Nobel Prize winning economist who lived in Germany at the time social democracy failed there, FR Hayek, over that.

Could you show me where he wrote about it?

I've given that reference several times already. His book "The Road to Serfdom". Go to the library and get it.

[cap'n queasy]

BobbyO wrote: Magorion wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: Sure it is. Hitler came to power through big corporations,

Hitler came to power by way of a socialists workers party fighting in the the streets.

He ruled everything in Germany with a iron fist for the "good of the German worker".


No, he came to power because the corporations supported him. In power, Hitler weakened the unions and introduced foreign slave labour, not exactly for "the good of the German worker".

Slave labor was also seen in the USSR. The reason was the same- a socialist economy is a sclerotic economy, and cannot produce what is needed. As a result, workers need to be found elsewhere. And since capitalism is abhorred, the options available a few.

Exactly. Also Communist China, and Cambodia.