Political Crossfire Forums

[psholtz]

Magorion wrote: Corporate big shots were after all the main force in getting the NSDAP into power in the first place. Hitler made sure EG Farben, IBM, Ford, GE, GM, Esso and Coca Cola could conduct their business in peace in the Nazi Reich, while Jewish shops and banks were scrutinised and were taken away from their owners.
It's mathematically impossible for corporations to exist w/o socialism..

Corporations are one of the most vicious and virulent expressions of socialism that exist.

Corporate welfare is just as real and deadly as "personal" welfare..

Naziism was little more than corporate welfare on a vast, vast scale.

[psholtz]

Raskolnikov wrote: Quote: They did none the less emerge out of socialism.

some people see the world in terms of black and white. americans tend to see it in terms of 'american' and 'socialist'.
America is one of the most highly socialized economies in existence today..

[Anarko-Kapitalizt]

psholtz wrote: Raskolnikov wrote: Quote: They did none the less emerge out of socialism.

some people see the world in terms of black and white. americans tend to see it in terms of 'american' and 'socialist'.
America is one of the most highly socialized economies in existence today..

It sure as hell has one of the most oppressive (and illegal) income taxes.

[Charlie Man]

What about northwestern europe?

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: It's mathematically impossible for corporations to exist w/o socialism..

So you think people should not be able to invest their money together as a group to start a business? Because that is what a corporation is.

The idea that it is mathematically impossible for a corporation to exist to exist without socialism is nonsensical. For one thing, mathematics has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not a corporation can exist without socialism or not. Additionally, in a socialist economy there is no private investment. Ergo no corporations.

So over all this is a ridiculous statement. And it is anti-freedom.

Now there is some problems with corporate law, but if you are going to be the boy who cried wolf all the time, when you actually say something that is important, no one will listen.

[cap'n queasy]

Anarko-Kapitalizt wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: Sure it is. Hitler came to power through big corporations,

Hitler came to power by way of a socialists workers party fighting in the the streets.

He ruled everything in Germany with a iron fist for the "good of the German worker".

If Germany wasn't a welfare state, I don't know if Hitler would have been able to rise to power so quickly and easily.

Social democracy always transforms into a totalitarian state. When they begin to fail, as they are destined to, a strong leader will be called for to hold the social fabric together.

Read Friedrich Hayek's "Road to Serfdom". He explains the process in detail.

[The Impeacher]

cap'n queasy wrote: Anarko-Kapitalizt wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: Sure it is. Hitler came to power through big corporations,

Hitler came to power by way of a socialists workers party fighting in the the streets.

He ruled everything in Germany with a iron fist for the "good of the German worker".

If Germany wasn't a welfare state, I don't know if Hitler would have been able to rise to power so quickly and easily.

Social democracy always transforms into a totalitarian state. When they begin to fail, as they are destined to, a strong leader will be called for to hold the social fabric together.

Read Friedrich Hayek's "Road to Serfdom". He explains the process in detail.

That's almost as bad as saying the capitalism will inevitably collapse upon itself.

Can competetion be eliminated from human society? No, your argument is sufficiently but not necessarily true.

[The Impeacher]

Magorion wrote: I wonder why so many people believe Hitler and the NSDAP were socialist or "liberal". Everything suggests that Hitler was extreme right-wing. After the election win in 1933, Hitler and the fascists started purging the party of its socialist members. Look up Ernst Röhm and the SA. The NSDAP was originally a common, rather manstream workers party until the extremist fascists took over the power of the party. Hitler made sure to strengthen the business ties with foreign companies, as well as domestic companies. The corporations in the United States, Austria, Switzerland and within Germany, were very pleased with Hitler's pro-business policies. Corporate big shots were after all the main force in getting the NSDAP into power in the first place. Hitler made sure EG Farben, IBM, Ford, GE, GM, Esso and Coca Cola could conduct their business in peace in the Nazi Reich, while Jewish shops and banks were scrutinised and were taken away from their owners. Hitler also made sure to weaken the unions, so that the workers couldn't do as much damage when or if they found out that the Reich was using slave labour, marginalising the need for the paid worker and causing them nothing but misery. Programmes such as Lebensborn was set into effect so that women would stay at home or in clinics popping out "Aryan" babies, while the men were fighing for the Homeland (Heimatland). The Nazis saw the women primarly as mothers and caregivers, and they were not fit for much else. Homosxuals (like Röhm) were seen as an abomination before the Maker. Hitler was deeply religious, and the Nazis had belt buckels with "Gott Mitt Uns" ("God With Us") written on them. It's a myth that Nazis hated Christianity. In fact, in thir platform they state that they did not oppose the Christian religion, apart from the "Jewish materialism" within it.

Got any sound arguments to show as to why the Nazis were left-wing, socialist or "liberal"?

I completely agree with you in that Nationalism is a far right ideology and that socialism that is from the top down, or heavily corporatized [monopolized] cannot be considered "liberal."

This is why anti-trust and anti-monopoly laws are so important, imho.

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: I completely agree with you in that Nationalism is a far right ideology

That is equivalent to saying no leftist is religious, and that Socialism is the sole provenance of the atheist. Do you say atheism is a far left ideology?

There is no characteristic of a nationalistic attitude that precludes the nationalist from following an ideology that supports the state owning the means of production.

If there is one, let us know.

[cap'n queasy]

The Impeacher wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Anarko-Kapitalizt wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: Sure it is. Hitler came to power through big corporations,

Hitler came to power by way of a socialists workers party fighting in the the streets.

He ruled everything in Germany with a iron fist for the "good of the German worker".

If Germany wasn't a welfare state, I don't know if Hitler would have been able to rise to power so quickly and easily.

Social democracy always transforms into a totalitarian state. When they begin to fail, as they are destined to, a strong leader will be called for to hold the social fabric together.

Read Friedrich Hayek's "Road to Serfdom". He explains the process in detail.

That's almost as bad as saying the capitalism will inevitably collapse upon itself.

Can competetion be eliminated from human society? No, your argument is sufficiently but not necessarily true.

Capitalism generates plenty of revenue to survive. Social Democracy does not. It ruins business as it destroys the free market.

[The Impeacher]

cap'n queasy wrote: The Impeacher wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Anarko-Kapitalizt wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: Sure it is. Hitler came to power through big corporations,

Hitler came to power by way of a socialists workers party fighting in the the streets.

He ruled everything in Germany with a iron fist for the "good of the German worker".

If Germany wasn't a welfare state, I don't know if Hitler would have been able to rise to power so quickly and easily.

Social democracy always transforms into a totalitarian state. When they begin to fail, as they are destined to, a strong leader will be called for to hold the social fabric together.

Read Friedrich Hayek's "Road to Serfdom". He explains the process in detail.

That's almost as bad as saying the capitalism will inevitably collapse upon itself.

Can competetion be eliminated from human society? No, your argument is sufficiently but not necessarily true.

Capitalism generates plenty of revenue to survive. Social Democracy does not. It ruins business as it destroys the free market.

No.

Democracy plus self-interest checks the state. You lose. People will voluntarily give up all the profits?

The free market is pure democracy, what you overlook is perhaps found in you realizing that there is still a free market in a social democracy.

How or why would there not be?

[The Impeacher]

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: I completely agree with you in that Nationalism is a far right ideology

That is equivalent to saying no leftist is religious, and that Socialism is the sole provenance of the atheist. Do you say atheism is a far left ideology?

There is no characteristic of a nationalistic attitude that precludes the nationalist from following an ideology that supports the state owning the means of production.

If there is one, let us know.

I mean that in so far as in applies to the Nazis. In general, I agree with what you said.

Are you suggesting that Nazi's were practicing a "leftist" nationalism? If you are, I will never agree with you, ever.

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: Are you suggesting that Nazi's were practicing a "leftist" nationalism? If you are, I will never agree with you, ever.

Only because the facts upset your sensibilities.

Let's take a look at the Nazi Party political platform.

Quote: The full text of the 25 point program is as follows:

We demand the unification of all Germans in the Greater Germany on the basis of the right of self-determination of peoples.
We demand equality of rights for the German people in respect to the other nations; abrogation of the peace treaties of Versailles and St. Germain.
We demand land and territory (colonies) for the sustenance of our people, and colonization for our surplus population.
Only a member of the race can be a citizen. A member of the race can only be one who is of German blood, without consideration of creed. Consequently no Jew can be a member of the race.
Whoever has no citizenship is to be able to live in Germany only as a guest, and must be under the authority of legislation for foreigners.
The right to determine matters concerning administration and law belongs only to the citizen. Therefore we demand that every public office, of any sort whatsoever, whether in the Reich, the county or municipality, be filled only by citizens. We combat the corrupting parliamentary economy, office-holding only according to party inclinations without consideration of character or abilities.
We demand that the state be charged first with providing the opportunity for a livelihood and way of life for the citizens. If it is impossible to sustain the total population of the State, then the members of foreign nations (non-citizens) are to be expelled from the Reich.
Any further immigration of non-citizens is to be prevented. We demand that all non-Germans, who have immigrated to Germany since the 2 August 1914, be forced immediately to leave the Reich.
All citizens must have equal rights and obligations.
The first obligation of every citizen must be to work both spiritually and physically. The activity of individuals is not to counteract the interests of the universality, but must have its result within the framework of the whole for the benefit of all Consequently we demand:
Abolition of unearned (work and labour) incomes. Breaking of rent-slavery.
In consideration of the monstrous sacrifice in property and blood that each war demands of the people personal enrichment through a war must be designated as a crime against the people. Therefore we demand the total confiscation of all war profits.
We demand the nationalisation of all (previous) associated industries (trusts).
We demand a division of profits of all heavy industries.
We demand an expansion on a large scale of old age welfare.
We demand the creation of a healthy middle class and its conservation, immediate communalization of the great warehouses and their being leased at low cost to small firms, the utmost consideration of all small firms in contracts with the State, county or municipality.
We demand a land reform suitable to our needs, provision of a law for the free expropriation of land for the purposes of public utility, abolition of taxes on land and prevention of all speculation in land.
We demand struggle without consideration against those whose activity is injurious to the general interest. Common national criminals, usurers, Schieber and so forth are to be punished with death, without consideration of confession or race.
We demand substitution of a German common law in place of the Roman Law serving a materialistic world-order.
The state is to be responsible for a fundamental reconstruction of our whole national education program, to enable every capable and industrious German to obtain higher education and subsequently introduction into leading positions. The plans of instruction of all educational institutions are to conform with the experiences of practical life. The comprehension of the concept of the State must be striven for by the school [Staatsbuergerkunde] as early as the beginning of understanding. We demand the education at the expense of the State of outstanding intellectually gifted children of poor parents without consideration of position or profession.
The State is to care for the elevating national health by protecting the mother and child, by outlawing child-labor, by the encouragement of physical fitness, by means of the legal establishment of a gymnastic and sport obligation, by the utmost support of all organizations concerned with the physical instruction of the young.
We demand abolition of the mercenary troops and formation of a national army.
We demand legal opposition to known lies and their promulgation through the press. In order to enable the provision of a German press, we demand, that: a. All writers and employees of the newspapers appearing in the German language be members of the race: b. Non-German newspapers be required to have the express permission of the State to be published. They may not be printed in the German language: c. Non-Germans are forbidden by law any financial interest in German publications, or any influence on them, and as punishment for violations the closing of such a publication as well as the immediate expulsion from the Reich of the non-German concerned. Publications which are counter to the general good are to be forbidden. We demand legal prosecution of artistic and literary forms which exert a destructive influence on our national life, and the closure of organizations opposing the above made demands.
We demand freedom of religion for all religious denominations within the state so long as they do not endanger its existence or oppose the moral senses of the Germanic race. The Party as such advocates the standpoint of a positive Christianity without binding itself confessionally to any one denomination. It combats the Jewish-materialistic spirit within and around us, and is convinced that a lasting recovery of our nation can only succeed from within on the framework: common utility precedes individual utility.
For the execution of all of this we demand the formation of a strong central power in the Reich. Unlimited authority of the central parliament over the whole Reich and its organizations in general. The forming of state and profession chambers for the execution of the laws made by the Reich within the various states of the confederation. The leaders of the Party promise, if necessary by sacrificing their own lives, to support by the execution of the points set forth above without consideration.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_Program


At least ten of these points are clearly pro-labor. And every one of them is a form of collectvism. Individualism did not exist in Nazi Germany. Individualism is the foundation of right wing classical liberal ideology.
Quote: "The program championed the right to employment and called for the institution of profit sharing, confiscation of war profits, prosecution of userers and profiteers, nationalization of trusts, communalization of department stores, extension of the old-age pension system, creation of a national education program of all classes, prohibition of child labor, and an end to the dominance of investment capital."

What say you now?

[cap'n queasy]

Nationalism in itself is a form of collectivism.

You see, the political spectrum has been blurred over the years.

Right and left are simplified terms for Individualism and Collectivism, for use by the masses, because they are more easily understood by the common man.

Individualism clearly favors freedom. Although there is nothing wrong with collective efforts as long as they are not mandated by the state.

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: The free market is pure democracy

The free market is completely unrelated to democracy.

[Raskolnikov]

Quote: America is one of the most highly socialized economies in existence today..

western europe and canada are far more socialized than america. what's your point though?

[issaiah1332]

Magorion wrote: I wonder why so many people believe Hitler and the NSDAP were socialist or "liberal". Everything suggests that Hitler was extreme right-wing. After the election win in 1933, Hitler and the fascists started purging the party of its socialist members. Look up Ernst Röhm and the SA. The NSDAP was originally a common, rather manstream workers party until the extremist fascists took over the power of the party. Hitler made sure to strengthen the business ties with foreign companies, as well as domestic companies. The corporations in the United States, Austria, Switzerland and within Germany, were very pleased with Hitler's pro-business policies. Corporate big shots were after all the main force in getting the NSDAP into power in the first place. Hitler made sure EG Farben, IBM, Ford, GE, GM, Esso and Coca Cola could conduct their business in peace in the Nazi Reich, while Jewish shops and banks were scrutinised and were taken away from their owners. Hitler also made sure to weaken the unions, so that the workers couldn't do as much damage when or if they found out that the Reich was using slave labour, marginalising the need for the paid worker and causing them nothing but misery. Programmes such as Lebensborn was set into effect so that women would stay at home or in clinics popping out "Aryan" babies, while the men were fighing for the Homeland (Heimatland). The Nazis saw the women primarly as mothers and caregivers, and they were not fit for much else. Homosxuals (like Röhm) were seen as an abomination before the Maker. Hitler was deeply religious, and the Nazis had belt buckels with "Gott Mitt Uns" ("God With Us") written on them. It's a myth that Nazis hated Christianity. In fact, in thir platform they state that they did not oppose the Christian religion, apart from the "Jewish materialism" within it.

Got any sound arguments to show as to why the Nazis were left-wing, socialist or "liberal"?


Unlike most, when the word "socialist" comes up I do not automatically think anti- freedom nor do I think Nazi. Socialism is a for of state capitalism...in which the job of equating wealth is left up to the government. Hitler had no economic thought, he merely hid behind the thoughts of socialism.

The name of his party was something he could use to further put forth his personal agenda.

In order to be socialist you must have a sense of political and economic ideology, you must want to equate things on an economic level...not try to establish a perfect race, in which everyone looks alike.

[Raskolnikov]

Quote: Unlike most, when the word "socialist" comes up I do not automatically think anti- freedom nor do I think Nazi.

not unlike most, actually.

[The Impeacher]

cap'n queasy wrote:
What say you now?

That you don't know the differnce between a social democracy and democratic socialism.

And, apparently, you don't understand what a free market is, either.

[FinnMacCool]

The Impeacher wrote: cap'n queasy wrote:
What say you now?

That you don't know the differnce between a social democracy and democratic socialism.

And, apparently, you don't understand what a free market is, either.

I thought Democratic Socialism and Social Democracy were interchangable words.