Political Crossfire Forums

[Superfly]

Stay in school. You'll do better on Jeopardy.

[agentkgb]

I said yes, but that's because that's closer, not because I totally approve of it. I think most of the high school requirements (except for the total number of credits required for graduation) should be halved. That way everyone gets some education in everything, but doesn't have to spend that much time on subjects that they have no interest in. Also I don't think there should be specific classes required, for instance a school might require a year or two of science, but they shouldn't require that all students take biology, they should let students choose two science courses they have the most interst in taking.
Also, health class is totally worthless. Maybe have all freshmen go to an assembly and be told that sex can result in pregnancy, drugs screw up your brain, and smoking increases risk of lung cancer, but there's no reason to waste a semester making cocaine posters to hang around the classroom. (40-60 minutes of gym class a week also accomplishes little, messes with your schedule, and should be abolished. I know a high-schooler who would be taking two language classes, but can't because gym class takes up the extra half period they need.)

[patrickt]

If a young man is interested in nothing but rap music then clearly he should study nothing but rap music.

[Gdawg007]

StrikeEmd15 wrote: Since I couldn't find a thread pertaining to this topic, I'm gonna start one myself.

I think that unschooling (the student chooses how, when, why, and what he or she learns) is and would be more effective than regular schooling. For instance: in regular school, I have to learn all this crud I'll never have to use again (i.e. Algebra II, Bio II, etc.), and will probably forget after colleague anyway. But if I learned what I wanted at my own pace, I'd probably stay interested. Now, the primary reason I go to my high school is primarily because most of my best firends are there. If they weren't there, I simply wouldn't go. Now, any thoughts, arguments, comments, etc?

If you are preparing youself for college, you should take at least through algebra II if not Calculus, and a higher level science.

If you are looking for vocational training, then I agree, perhaps Algebra II isn't needed.

The problem with letting students choose is that you are now shifting that dredeful decision of what one must do with the rest of their life from senior year of high school to freshmen year of high school. That's a big decision to have to make at 14 or 15. It's plenty big at 18. I think preparing everyone for college may not be best, but at least the student retains the option of being prepped to get into college and can always pursue vocational training. If you aren't prepped for college, then it can be harder if someone decides after high school they wanted to go to college.

[Superfly]

patrickt wrote: If a young man is interested in nothing but rap music then clearly he should study nothing but rap music.

That's kind of ridiculous. What kind of future is listening to rap music preparing him for?

Sure, school is for knowledge, but it's also preparing you for what you choose to do out of school, as GDawg said. Whether it is college or technical training, you need to be prepared to do either one or the other.

When I went to high school, we had to choose one of two educational paths - HAD to choose. Either college prep courses or vo-tech courses.

They did this to insure that we were ready for the next step, once high school is over. Now, most of us either go to college, or go to work.

How would studying nothing but rap music prepare you for either?

[patrickt]

And, you think they should be forced, forced mind you, to learn reading, writing, math, science, history, and social studies? You seem to miss the whole point of "unschooling". My comment before was intended for those who voted for unschooling.

I actually met a kid whose father believe in unschooling. He wanted his son to grow up naturally. When I asked how the boy would learn to read the father, who has a Ph.D., said, "Oh, he'll pick it up." Well, he didn't "pick it up."

The last time I saw the boy he was grown and had started a successful career in going to jail.

Another friend of mine had a neighbor who said he needed a job. My friend handed him the want ads and the young man looked at it and said, "I can't read." Not only limits your job hunt but limits your job opportunities, too.

A reporter asked me to read an article before it was submitted for publication. I read the first sentence which said something like, "Twenty-five percent of the people in our city, or 10,000, believe such and such." I put the paper down and the reporter said, "You didn't finish."

I said I had finished. I read enough. If he couldn't get the math right, why should I think he'd get anything else right?

Or, people who think Lincoln freed the slaves in the U.S. I could go on but I suppose it isn't necessary. Except maybe for those who were unschooled.

[political scientist]

LostSoul3412 wrote: Absolutely not.

While this is somewhat the situation in college, in high school (as I am assuming the question is directed towards), students are too irresponsible to manage their own education on that level. As such, there need to be rules in place to prevent students from effectively ruining their futures because they were disinterested during high school.

Exactly! If left to high school students' discretion, what guarantees they will pursue a real education.
Also, the public school curiculum incorporates general education of all students in order to ensure students are well rounded and ready for the world. In high school, students also learn a sense of responsibility. They are accountable for their actions regardless of whether or not they like the class they're in. In the real world, we all have things we really don't want to do, but we have to.

~Political Scientist

[Prole]

Absolutely not. Children do not, in general, have the maturity to responsibility to forego education that would grant them real opportunities in the future. To clarify, for this case I consider anyone who is a minor a child.

bigstick wonders what use literature studies may for him in the future; in and of itself, it is quite possibly none. The same is true for most history and biology. Really, in high school, practically nothing you learn in class will have direct application to your real world job(s), though there are certainly exceptions.

But studying of these subjects develops analytical and problem solving skills, as well as writing abilities. Information analysis and problem solving is, in one way or another, at the core of most jobs. Now, problem solving for a journalist is certainly quite different than problem solving for a chemical engineer, but in any case, having a rich background in all types of problem solving is invaluable. Writing is even more obvious; communication is (increasingly) critical to many professions, and exposure to good writing and a variety of styles (such as literature) and practice of writing oneself are two important ways of developing as a writer.

The bottom line is, though, that most people, whether or not they are a minor, do not know what they want to do with their lives professionally (or as a whole) at a young age, and heck, many people never fully do. It's pretty short-sighted to limit one's options and scope so completely, so obligating people at a young age try many things is really for their own good.

[bigstick61]

Most of what I learned will help me little in jobs, but it has helped me in school, which is the key to getting better jobs. In the case of the Navy though, knowing Calculus and Physics, as well as Chemistry and History all help considerably. Knwoing a foreign language in certain jobs can also get you paid more, too.

[agentkgb]

What about the art or music requirement a lot of schools have? If I have no artistical ability whatsoever, I doubt that such a class could ever be useful to me, unlike Calculus or Spanish.

[ChainRetardant]

I an currently in high school, having unschooled for 5 years this is my first year is school.

My opinion is that yes, I believe I have learned much more about politics and things that truly matter in this world that now, as i see in school, other kids don't seem to know or care about. To me, as i see it, my classmates seem to not be able to think for themselves and doing what everyone else is doing is somehow good...

I feel unschooling has let me think for myself, knowing that if I want to make a differance I can't just let flow these years of my life, I have to start now.

I've talked various people about this and they all seem to think there is lots of time to do what you want. Then I find out that their goals are to get a big car, big house and raise good conservative children and basicly follow the system.

So basicly Unschooling has taught me that I CAN make a differance, and the reason that most people can't is that they start to late.

[Green]

perdidochas wrote:
Every human should have a basic understanding of biology--why? Because we are living things, and it is good to be able to understand biology to potentially understand illnesses, etc.


I do not think learning what a sucrose looks like looks like will help you with your illneses.

[The Comrade]

Green wrote:

I do not think learning what a sucrose looks like looks like will help you with your illneses.

suscrose is another form of glucose, noob. the shape would be chemistry anyways.

[TheGirlNextDoor]

So many things are taught in school that are teaching kids things that aren't recognizable at first, but they do serve a purpose.

I do not agree with the original poster - as far as elementary education is concerned.

I would be in favor of middle schools giving students a bit more control over their own education (not total, but a little to get their feet wet) and then once they are in high school, they take the reins from there.

I would make a stipulation that dependent on what your GPA is, that figure would dictate how much of your own curriculum you could choose.

If nothing else, that would show the level of maturity and reflect the desire to learn in each individual student and show that they are either prepared or not prepared to take their own education into their own hands.

[Josh]

I'm so nerdy I'm going to defend school to the deeeath!

I've always thought of schooling as purchasing tools and it was always up to me to either waste the time and effort put into obtaining the tools or to actually apply the explicit and implicit lessons learned in each subject.

The ability to turn a profit (not necessarily $) from what you learn in school rests with you. It's not so much WHAT is taught as far as it is HOW it's taught.

Literature has a function in learning how to communicate in several types of context as well as motivates critical thinking skills along with the secondary role it plays in art and culture.

Algebra and Algebra 2 are extremely functional in almost any career. Knowing it and using it (and learning where to use) can make life easier. They try to teach you that with word problems but, most people groan at word problems. Besides, you do Algebra everyday when you're balancing your bank account, determining max and min of the decisions you make in regards to purchases and measurements.

Chemistry can save you from making nimrod mistakes around the house and at work.

Biology can clue you into what's going on with your health.

I support more choice in schooling. I was lucky enough to attend a technical highschool that gave me the choice of my classes after I passed the basics, (Applications of Algebra and Trigonometry and Applications of Geometry were the highest technical math classes that were consider basic. After that, you could take the college-bound Calculus.) The learning experience I gained from that caused me to see that there is more to school than just passing the test.


I think students should be allowed the opportunity to take time off from school and encouraged to think for themselves. I saw that at public schools that students would sink into the comforts of social life when they couldn't hack some of feelings they felt in classes.


I'd start by increasing the intensity of learning in classrooms by decreasing the amount of students per class. (If I supported public education to begin with.)

[Otacon]

I approve of unschooling because the only things I would choose not to take would be my Algebra II class and the Geometry class i'll take next year. I will have no use for anything beyond basic mathematics, therefore I can't see any logical reason why I should have to take these classes. Many say that I don't know what I want to be when I get older and that I will need it, but my father is an English professor at a university and he can't do any math beyond what's required to balance his checkbook. I am not going to take up a profession that requires math. Get over it. I don't like math and I don't see why I should have to take it anymore. I passed Algebra I. That's enough. Time for me to move on to bigger and better thigns.

[Josh]

Quote: I approve of unschooling because the only things I would choose not to take would be my Algebra II class and the Geometry class i'll take next year. I will have no use for anything beyond basic mathematics, therefore I can't see any logical reason why I should have to take these classes.

So, I'm assuming you have to take them?


Quote: Many say that I don't know what I want to be when I get older and that I will need it, but my father is an English professor at a university and he can't do any math beyond what's required to balance his checkbook. I am not going to take up a profession that requires math. Get over it.

How can you know whether or not you need it if you don't even know what it is?

Quote: Get over it.

I'm over it. But, you still have to take Algebra 2 and Geometry next year.

Are you just not good at math, is that why you're so... ...vicious towards numbers? It's nothing to be ashamed of... I suck at math too. (Like knowing when to explicitly and implicitly derive something or some of the Statistic problems I face... jeez. I totally s*cked at Algebra too. But, I found my niche in Geometry.)

Since you have to take them anyway, my best advice is to do your homework everyday (even redo your homework if you have none) and attend a study hall after school... or drop in and get help from your teacher.

(Secret: Math teachers a pretty cool if you show some effort.)

[perdidochas]

Green wrote: perdidochas wrote:
Every human should have a basic understanding of biology--why? Because we are living things, and it is good to be able to understand biology to potentially understand illnesses, etc.


I do not think learning what a sucrose looks like looks like will help you with your illneses.

Maybe, but knowing how the insulin feedback system works will. It's easy to quibble about specific facts, but the general knowledge of biology will help you with illnesses.

For example, it may not be important to know what the sucrose molecule is, but it is very important to know that starches are composed of glucose molecules chained together......

[perdidochas]

Otacon wrote: I approve of unschooling because the only things I would choose not to take would be my Algebra II class and the Geometry class i'll take next year. I will have no use for anything beyond basic mathematics, therefore I can't see any logical reason why I should have to take these classes. Many say that I don't know what I want to be when I get older and that I will need it, but my father is an English professor at a university and he can't do any math beyond what's required to balance his checkbook. I am not going to take up a profession that requires math. Get over it. I don't like math and I don't see why I should have to take it anymore. I passed Algebra I. That's enough. Time for me to move on to bigger and better thigns.

So you have already chosen to limit yourself to non-mathematical professions. Sounds to me like you've limited your possible income by quite a bit.

[Otacon]

perdidochas wrote: Otacon wrote: I approve of unschooling because the only things I would choose not to take would be my Algebra II class and the Geometry class i'll take next year. I will have no use for anything beyond basic mathematics, therefore I can't see any logical reason why I should have to take these classes. Many say that I don't know what I want to be when I get older and that I will need it, but my father is an English professor at a university and he can't do any math beyond what's required to balance his checkbook. I am not going to take up a profession that requires math. Get over it. I don't like math and I don't see why I should have to take it anymore. I passed Algebra I. That's enough. Time for me to move on to bigger and better thigns.

So you have already chosen to limit yourself to non-mathematical professions. Sounds to me like you've limited your possible income by quite a bit.

I'd rather make much less money than to have a profession that requires math.