Political Crossfire Forums

[Lucky Luke]

lilwolf wrote: Lucky Luke wrote: lilwolf wrote: Well I have found this information on several different sites that all say the same thig... that guns reduce crime.
For example:

17th ANNUAL NATIONAL SURVEY RESULTS OF POLICE CHIEFS & SHERIFFS

The following survey questions were posed by mail of 22,587 Chiefs of Police and Sheriffs in the United States. It represents a cross section of professional command officers involving every state. The survey was conducted for the 17th consecutive year by the National Association of Chiefs of Police. (321)264-0911. www.aphf.org, policeinfo@aphf.org.This email address is being protected from spam bots, you need Javascript enabled to view it Permission to reproduce in whole or part is given if credit is given to the National Association of Chiefs of Police © 2005



FIREARMS
3. Should any law-abiding citizen be able to purchase a firearm for sport or self-defense? 93.6% yes
4. Within the past year, has your agency been called upon to arrest anyone who has made a false statement on an
application to purchase a firearm? 92.2% no
5. Should anyone (such as a convicted felon) in violation of state or federal firearm possession laws, be prosecuted by the U.S. Attorney and, if convicted, receive a maximum prison term? 89.7% yes
6. Do you believe law-abiding citizens should be limited to the purchase of no more than one firearm per month? 72.8% no
7. Do you maintain that criminals currently are able to obtain basically any type of firearm by illegal means? 96.1% yes
8. Do you believe the application & training process to allow commerical airline pilots to carry firearms in the cockpit is too restrictive and burdensome? 53.6% no
9. Will a national concealed handgun permit reduce rates of violent crime as recent studies in some states have already reflected? 63.1% yes


http://www.ohioccw.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3538&Itemid=67

So it would appear that the police chiefs think that gun reduce crime.

Why are you changing the topic of your thread Lilwolf?

You said that the claim that gun control reduces crimes was false, but who made this claim Lilwolf, who?

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The point of the survey that was given to all those police chiefs is question # 9...that is why the entire thing is there...no spin and did not re direct the subject.. CCW in their opinion says you are wrong LL.. so you don't like it complain to them I just post it as I read and see it... :rotf:

Question 9 has nothing to do with the claim that you said existed that gun control reduces crimes Lilwolf.

You opened a thread about to demonstrate that the claim that gun control reduces crimes is false. Do show us who made that claim Lilwolf. so far you haven't show us your source that claims that gun control reduces crimes.

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[Lucky Luke]

lilwolf wrote: It is right there in front of you and if you cannot read well this subject went into the toilet....do your own homework LL... :gdgf:

Where is it Lilwolf? Show us the people who wrongly claimed that gun control reduces crimes Lilwolf.

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[lilwolf]

Was it not you LL that said a CCW was gun control to a few different people here in this forum?

CCW has been demonstrated to reduce crime and the evidence is right in front of you and again you dispute.

Question 9 says the following LL:


. Will a national concealed handgun permit reduce rates of violent crime as recent studies in some states have already reflected? 63.1% yes

That answers your statement when you said that CCW law is gun control law. Your words LL.
You do not like it take it up with the source and you can argue with them.
You are just not getting it and hardly worth the effort any more. :roll:

[Lucky Luke]

lilwolf wrote: Was it not you LL that said a CCW was gun control to a few different people here in this forum?

CCW has been demonstrated to reduce crime and the evidence is right in front of you and again you dispute.

Question 9 says the following LL:


. Will a national concealed handgun permit reduce rates of violent crime as recent studies in some states have already reflected? 63.1% yes

That answers your statement when you said that CCW law is gun control law. Your words LL.
You do not like it take it up with the source and you can argue with them.
You are just not getting it and hardly worth the effort any more. :roll:

If CCW laws are like I claim gun control laws, how can the claim that they reduce crimes stands when you have opened this same thread telling us that gun control does not reduce crimes?

What is it Lilwolf? Make your mind up.

This is what you wrote Lilwolf:

Lilwolf wrote: While it has been said that gun control laws reduce crime there is very little evidence to back up that claim. In my opinion there are no real factual numbers that reveal the claim to be true.

And now this:

Lilwolf wrote: CCW has been demonstrated to reduce crime and the evidence is right in front of you and again you dispute.

You have managed to prove yourself wrong, again. How do you do it? Does gun control reduce crimes or not in your opinion Lilwolf? So far you have been telling us in this thread that it doesn't then to follow up with a statement that it does. Which Lilwolf are we meant to believe?

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[lilwolf]

Nope LL, not this time. There are 2 different aspects here in gun control. The CCW deters crime in that bad guys do not know who has a gun and who does not.... thus crime drops..proven fact (Orlando Florida).

Second the gun control that restricts people from owning that are law abiding people does little to reduce crime. All it does is put additional restrictions upon people that should have a right to keep and bear arms.

Heavy restrictions do nothnig to prevent and in many cases where people have no guns (gun control) certain aspects of crime have went up where cities and states that have RTC and CCW certain crimes have went down.
Try Orlando Florida again.

It does not matter what you believe the fact that having guns reduces crime is evident and having heavy restrictiions doe little or nothnig to reduce crime of certain types.

By surrendering your guns in the UK did it reduce murder. Yes and no, because now that guns are not there they use knives. You gained nothnig of ant major signifigance there.

Now prove LL that having the CCW and RTC does not lower crime.
Now prove that having heavy restrictions by taking away peoples RTC and CCW will reduce crime in any major numbers.

[Lucky Luke]

lilwolf wrote: Nope LL, not this time. There are 2 different aspects here in gun control. The CCW deters crime in that bad guys do not know who has a gun and who does not.... thus crime drops..proven fact (Orlando Florida).

Second the gun control that restricts people from owning that are law abiding people does little to reduce crime. All it does is put additional restrictions upon people that should have a right to keep and bear arms.

Heavy restrictions do nothnig to prevent and in many cases where people have no guns (gun control) certain aspects of crime have went up where cities and states that have RTC and CCW certain crimes have went down.
Try Orlando Florida again.

It does not matter what you believe the fact that having guns reduces crime is evident and having heavy restrictiions doe little or nothnig to reduce crime of certain types.

By surrendering your guns in the UK did it reduce murder. Yes and no, because now that guns are not there they use knives. You gained nothnig of ant major signifigance there.

Now prove LL that having the CCW and RTC does not lower crime.
Now prove that having heavy restrictions by taking away peoples RTC and CCW will reduce crime in any major numbers.

Don't change the topic of your own thread Lilwolf, let's go back to what this thread is all about.

You started by stating that the claim that gun control reduces crime is a myth.

Who made this claim that gun control reduces crime Lilwolf?

You are claiming that whoever claims that gun control reduces crime is wrong therefore you believe that gun control does not reduce crime, am I wrong or am I right so far Lilwolf?

:-D
:-D

[lilwolf]

Lucky Luke wrote: lilwolf wrote: Nope LL, not this time. There are 2 different aspects here in gun control. The CCW deters crime in that bad guys do not know who has a gun and who does not.... thus crime drops..proven fact (Orlando Florida).

Second the gun control that restricts people from owning that are law abiding people does little to reduce crime. All it does is put additional restrictions upon people that should have a right to keep and bear arms.

Heavy restrictions do nothnig to prevent and in many cases where people have no guns (gun control) certain aspects of crime have went up where cities and states that have RTC and CCW certain crimes have went down.
Try Orlando Florida again.

It does not matter what you believe the fact that having guns reduces crime is evident and having heavy restrictiions doe little or nothnig to reduce crime of certain types.

By surrendering your guns in the UK did it reduce murder. Yes and no, because now that guns are not there they use knives. You gained nothnig of ant major signifigance there.

Now prove LL that having the CCW and RTC does not lower crime.
Now prove that having heavy restrictions by taking away peoples RTC and CCW will reduce crime in any major numbers.

Don't change the topic of your own thread Lilwolf, let's go back to what this thread is all about.

You started by stating that the claim that gun control reduces crime is a myth.

Who made this claim that gun control reduces crime Lilwolf?

You are claiming that whoever claims that gun control reduces crime is wrong therefore you believe that gun control does not reduce crime, am I wrong or am I right so far Lilwolf?

:-D
:-D

Prove the claim from the police that they agreed that CCW reduces crime LL. They answered the question not me...You do not like it prove all those police chiefs wrong in their opinion

[Lucky Luke]

lilwolf wrote: Lucky Luke wrote: lilwolf wrote: Nope LL, not this time. There are 2 different aspects here in gun control. The CCW deters crime in that bad guys do not know who has a gun and who does not.... thus crime drops..proven fact (Orlando Florida).

Second the gun control that restricts people from owning that are law abiding people does little to reduce crime. All it does is put additional restrictions upon people that should have a right to keep and bear arms.

Heavy restrictions do nothnig to prevent and in many cases where people have no guns (gun control) certain aspects of crime have went up where cities and states that have RTC and CCW certain crimes have went down.
Try Orlando Florida again.

It does not matter what you believe the fact that having guns reduces crime is evident and having heavy restrictiions doe little or nothnig to reduce crime of certain types.

By surrendering your guns in the UK did it reduce murder. Yes and no, because now that guns are not there they use knives. You gained nothnig of ant major signifigance there.

Now prove LL that having the CCW and RTC does not lower crime.
Now prove that having heavy restrictions by taking away peoples RTC and CCW will reduce crime in any major numbers.

Don't change the topic of your own thread Lilwolf, let's go back to what this thread is all about.

You started by stating that the claim that gun control reduces crime is a myth.

Who made this claim that gun control reduces crime Lilwolf?

You are claiming that whoever claims that gun control reduces crime is wrong therefore you believe that gun control does not reduce crime, am I wrong or am I right so far Lilwolf?

:-D
:-D

Prove the claim from the police that they agreed that CCW reduces crime LL. They answered the question not me...You do not like it prove all those police chiefs wrong in their opinion

I'll be happy to debate CCW laws once you tell us what is this thread is all about Lilwolf.

Who made the claim that gun control reduces crime Lilwolf? You are saying it is a myth, are you right or are you wrong Lilwolf?

:-D
:-D

[lilwolf]

Gun control laws will do nothing to reduce crime. There is ample evidence to show that gun restrictions do not reduce crime. Thus gun control laws as they are are doing nothing and having or imposing additional laws would do nothing as well.

Gun control doesn't reduce crime, violence, say studies
National Academy of Sciences, Justice Dept. reports find no benefits to restricting ownership of firearms

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: December 30, 2004
1:00 a.m. Eastern



© 2004 WorldNetDaily.com

WASHINGTON – While it is an article of faith among gun-control proponents that government restrictions on firearms reduces violence and crime, two new U.S. studies could find no evidence to support such a conclusion.

The National Academy of Sciences issued a 328-page report based on 253 journal articles, 99 books, 43 government publications, a survey of 80 different gun-control laws and some of its own independent study. In short, the panel could find no link between restrictions on gun ownership and lower rates of crime, firearms violence or even accidents with guns
The study by the Research Council, the operating arm of the National Academy of Science, was sponsored by the National Institute of Justice, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Joyce Foundation, Annie E. Casey Foundation and the David and Lucile Packard Foundation.

"While more research is always helpful, the notion that we have learned nothing flies in the face of common sense," said John Lott, resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute and a critic of gun-control laws. "The NAS panel should have concluded as the existing research has: Gun control doesn't help."

Meanwhile, a study released by the Justice Department suggesting background checks at gun shows would do little to keep firearms out of the hands of criminals.

The study noted the number of criminals who obtained guns from retail outlets was dwarfed by the number of those who picked up their arms through means other than legal purchases. The report was the result of interviews with more than 18,000 state and federal inmates conducted nationwide. It found that nearly 80 percent of those interviewed got their guns from friends or family members, or on the street through illegal purchases.

Less than 9 percent were bought at retail outlets and only seven-tenths of 1 percent came from gun shows.

The Justice Department's interviews also showed so-called "assault weapons" are not a major cause of gun violence. Only about 8 percent of the inmates used one of the models covered in the now-expired assault weapons ban, signed into law by the Clinton administration in 1994.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=42167

[Lucky Luke]

lilwolf wrote: Gun control laws will do nothing to reduce crime. There is ample evidence to show that gun restrictions do not reduce crime. Thus gun control laws as they are are doing nothing and having or imposing additional laws would do nothing as well.

Gun control doesn't reduce crime, violence, say studies
National Academy of Sciences, Justice Dept. reports find no benefits to restricting ownership of firearms

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: December 30, 2004
1:00 a.m. Eastern



© 2004 WorldNetDaily.com

WASHINGTON – While it is an article of faith among gun-control proponents that government restrictions on firearms reduces violence and crime, two new U.S. studies could find no evidence to support such a conclusion.

The National Academy of Sciences issued a 328-page report based on 253 journal articles, 99 books, 43 government publications, a survey of 80 different gun-control laws and some of its own independent study. In short, the panel could find no link between restrictions on gun ownership and lower rates of crime, firearms violence or even accidents with guns
The study by the Research Council, the operating arm of the National Academy of Science, was sponsored by the National Institute of Justice, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Joyce Foundation, Annie E. Casey Foundation and the David and Lucile Packard Foundation.

"While more research is always helpful, the notion that we have learned nothing flies in the face of common sense," said John Lott, resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute and a critic of gun-control laws. "The NAS panel should have concluded as the existing research has: Gun control doesn't help."

Meanwhile, a study released by the Justice Department suggesting background checks at gun shows would do little to keep firearms out of the hands of criminals.

The study noted the number of criminals who obtained guns from retail outlets was dwarfed by the number of those who picked up their arms through means other than legal purchases. The report was the result of interviews with more than 18,000 state and federal inmates conducted nationwide. It found that nearly 80 percent of those interviewed got their guns from friends or family members, or on the street through illegal purchases.

Less than 9 percent were bought at retail outlets and only seven-tenths of 1 percent came from gun shows.

The Justice Department's interviews also showed so-called "assault weapons" are not a major cause of gun violence. Only about 8 percent of the inmates used one of the models covered in the now-expired assault weapons ban, signed into law by the Clinton administration in 1994.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=42167

Again:

Who made the claim that gun control reduces crime Lilwolf?

You are saying it is a myth, are you right or are you wrong Lilwolf?

:-D
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[lilwolf]

LL, read the bold print and you can see who made the statements here. I do not have time for your worthless drivel and ignorance.

Either read it and accept the fact that they said it and be done with it or go find another forum to play on (guoting your infamous words there) :lol:

[Lucky Luke]

lilwolf wrote: LL, read the bold print and you can see who made the statements here. I do not have time for your worthless drivel and ignorance.

Either read it and accept the fact that they said it and be done with it or go find another forum to play on (guoting your infamous words there) :lol:


Here they are:

lilwolf wrote:
Gun control doesn't reduce crime, violence, say studies
National Academy of Sciences, Justice Dept. reports find no benefits to restricting ownership of firearms

two new U.S. studies could find no evidence to support such a conclusion.

The National Academy of Sciences issued a 328-page report based on 253 journal articles, 99 books, 43 government publications, a survey of 80 different gun-control laws and some of its own independent study. In short, the panel could find no link between restrictions on gun ownership and lower rates of crime, firearms violence or even accidents with guns

Gun control doesn't help."

Meanwhile, a study released by the Justice Department suggesting background checks at gun shows would do little to keep firearms out of the hands of criminals.

interviews with more than 18,000 state and federal inmates conducted nationwide. It found that nearly 80 percent of those interviewed got their guns from friends or family members, or on the street through illegal purchases.

1 percent came from gun shows.

The Justice Department's interviews also showed so-called "assault weapons" are not a major cause of gun violence.



Not one of the bolded sentences make the claim that gun control reduces crime, I repeat my question to you:

Who made the claim that gun control reduces crime Lilwolf?

Then, try to get out of that one:

You are saying it is a myth, are you right or are you wrong Lilwolf?

:-D
:-D

[lilwolf]

Lucky Luke wrote: lilwolf wrote: LL, read the bold print and you can see who made the statements here. I do not have time for your worthless drivel and ignorance.

Either read it and accept the fact that they said it and be done with it or go find another forum to play on (guoting your infamous words there) :lol:


Here they are:

lilwolf wrote:
Gun control doesn't reduce crime, violence, say studies
National Academy of Sciences, Justice Dept. reports find no benefits to restricting ownership of firearms

two new U.S. studies could find no evidence to support such a conclusion.

The National Academy of Sciences issued a 328-page report based on 253 journal articles, 99 books, 43 government publications, a survey of 80 different gun-control laws and some of its own independent study. In short, the panel could find no link between restrictions on gun ownership and lower rates of crime, firearms violence or even accidents with guns

Gun control doesn't help."

Meanwhile, a study released by the Justice Department suggesting background checks at gun shows would do little to keep firearms out of the hands of criminals.

interviews with more than 18,000 state and federal inmates conducted nationwide. It found that nearly 80 percent of those interviewed got their guns from friends or family members, or on the street through illegal purchases.

1 percent came from gun shows.

The Justice Department's interviews also showed so-called "assault weapons" are not a major cause of gun violence.



Not one of the bolded sentences make the claim that gun control reduces crime, I repeat my question to you:

Who made the claim that gun control reduces crime Lilwolf?

Then, try to get out of that one:

You are saying it is a myth, are you right or are you wrong Lilwolf?

:-D
:-D


That is what the title of the thread says LL. Gun control reduces crime. It is a myth all in its own. That is why these people and agencies say there is no correlation between gun control and crime....because it does not work LL. All of the things you highlighted say the same thing.

Mnay of the anti-gunners sites all say that gun control will reduce crim and these agencies say other wise.

There you go and that is all there is.....gun control does not reduce crime and it is a myth to say so. You answered your own questions.

Gin control will do not one bit of good and that is what they are saying

[Lucky Luke]

lilwolf wrote:


That is what the title of the thread says LL. Gun control reduces crime. It is a myth all in its own. That is why these people and agencies say there is no correlation between gun control and crime....because it does not work LL. All of the things you highlighted say the same thing.

Mnay of the anti-gunners sites all say that gun control will reduce crim and these agencies say other wise.

There you go and that is all there is.....gun control does not reduce crime and it is a myth to say so. You answered your own questions.

Gin control will do not one bit of good and that is what they are saying

This is your thread Lilwolf, so far you have proved that you are the only one claiming that gun control reduces crime.

Who is spreading the claim that gun control reduces crime Lilwolf except you?

Show us anyone else than you who claims that gun control reduces crime Lilwolf.

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[lilwolf]

No spin LL...no more of your BS okay...the title says as follows:


myth #2...gun control reduces crime


It does not and never has so where ever you want to spin it...help yourself.

[Lucky Luke]

lilwolf wrote: No spin LL...no more of your BS okay...the title says as follows:


myth #2...gun control reduces crime


It does not and never has so where ever you want to spin it...help yourself.

This is your thread Lilwolf, you wrote the words "gun control reduces crime", you are the one spreading the myth.

Are you the only one? Who else is Lilwolf?

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[airo]

Lucky Luke wrote: lilwolf wrote: No spin LL...no more of your BS okay...the title says as follows:


myth #2...gun control reduces crime


It does not and never has so where ever you want to spin it...help yourself.

This is your thread Lilwolf, you wrote the words "gun control reduces crime", you are the one spreading the myth.

Are you the only one? Who else is Lilwolf?

:-D
:-D

He may well be. Some of us really don't care HOW gun ownership impacts crime. To us, gun control is a higher issue, that transcends numbers. That's something you seemingly just can't understand.

[Lucky Luke]

airo wrote: Lucky Luke wrote: lilwolf wrote: No spin LL...no more of your BS okay...the title says as follows:


myth #2...gun control reduces crime


It does not and never has so where ever you want to spin it...help yourself.

This is your thread Lilwolf, you wrote the words "gun control reduces crime", you are the one spreading the myth.

Are you the only one? Who else is Lilwolf?

:-D
:-D

He may well be. Some of us really don't care HOW gun ownership impacts crime. To us, gun control is a higher issue, that transcends numbers. That's something you seemingly just can't understand.

Lilwolf seems to care but gets found out regularly when he attempts to repeat some wild claims from anti gun control propaganda.

I understand that anti gun control posters here prefer to ignore the reality of gun control and instead are choosing to tell us about their love for their guns. Emotion has no place in a gun control debate, we need to debate facts and to separate the propaganda from the truth.

:-D
:-D

[airo]

Lucky Luke wrote: airo wrote: Lucky Luke wrote: lilwolf wrote: No spin LL...no more of your BS okay...the title says as follows:


myth #2...gun control reduces crime


It does not and never has so where ever you want to spin it...help yourself.

This is your thread Lilwolf, you wrote the words "gun control reduces crime", you are the one spreading the myth.

Are you the only one? Who else is Lilwolf?

:-D
:-D

He may well be. Some of us really don't care HOW gun ownership impacts crime. To us, gun control is a higher issue, that transcends numbers. That's something you seemingly just can't understand.

Lilwolf seems to care but gets found out regularly when he attempts to repeat some wild claims from anti gun control propaganda.

I understand that anti gun control posters here prefer to ignore the reality of gun control and instead are choosing to tell us about their love for their guns. Emotion has no place in a gun control debate, we need to debate facts and to separate the propaganda from the truth.

:-D
:-D

Funny, when will you start taking your own advice?

I personally don't know much about Lilwolf's numbers. Like i said, i don't care much about the numbers. Furthermore, i've seen how you play games with and contort your own words, and i have no interest in playing a number game with you. Deaths are justified in defending ideals--that's a premise America was founded on. Getting rid of something that supports a natural right would not only mean every man and woman who died fighting the English in the Revolutionary war did so in vain, but it would also make our fore fathers and the framers of the constitution spin in their grave.

But, that's exactly what i'm getting that. There's a lot more facts in this issue than just numbers, which is something you don't seem to comprehend.

[Lucky Luke]

airo wrote: Lucky Luke wrote: airo wrote: Lucky Luke wrote: lilwolf wrote: No spin LL...no more of your BS okay...the title says as follows:


myth #2...gun control reduces crime


It does not and never has so where ever you want to spin it...help yourself.

This is your thread Lilwolf, you wrote the words "gun control reduces crime", you are the one spreading the myth.

Are you the only one? Who else is Lilwolf?

:-D
:-D

He may well be. Some of us really don't care HOW gun ownership impacts crime. To us, gun control is a higher issue, that transcends numbers. That's something you seemingly just can't understand.

Lilwolf seems to care but gets found out regularly when he attempts to repeat some wild claims from anti gun control propaganda.

I understand that anti gun control posters here prefer to ignore the reality of gun control and instead are choosing to tell us about their love for their guns. Emotion has no place in a gun control debate, we need to debate facts and to separate the propaganda from the truth.

:-D
:-D

Funny, when will you start taking your own advice?

I personally don't know much about Lilwolf's numbers. Like i said, i don't care much about the numbers. Furthermore, i've seen how you play games with and contort your own words, and i have no interest in playing a number game with you. Deaths are justified in defending ideals--that's a premise America was founded on. Getting rid of something that supports a natural right would not only mean every man and woman who died fighting the English in the Revolutionary war did so in vain, but it would also make our fore fathers and the framers of the constitution spin in their grave.

But, that's exactly what i'm getting that. There's a lot more facts in this issue than just numbers, which is something you don't seem to comprehend.

What advice would that be Airo?

This is a forum about gun control and posters here are claiming that guns are a valid mode of self protection in our urban democratic modern society. I happen to disagree.
What is your point Airo?

I would be happy to debate historic events with you Airo and to show you that civilians with guns don't do that well on the battlefield when facing regular forces. They can win the odd battle but can only lose the war.

:-D
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