Political Crossfire Forums

[lilwolf]

While it has been said that gun control laws reduce crime there is very little evidence to back up that claim. In my opinion there are no real factual numbers that reveal the claim to be true.

Below are a few of the myths about reducing crime by gun control, and each one is exposed as blatant lies and fabrications.

Domestic Evidence.

If gun control laws have any effect, it may be to increase crime. For instance:19
New Jersey adopted what sponsors described as "the most stringent gun law" in the nation in 1966; two years later, the murder rate was up 46 percent and the reported robbery rate had nearly doubled.
In 1968, Hawaii imposed a series of increasingly harsh measures and its murder rate, then a low 2.4 per 100,000 per year, tripled to 7.2 by 1977.
In 1976, Washington, D.C., enacted one of the most restrictive gun control laws in the nation. Since then, the city's murder rate has risen 134 percent while the national murder rate has dropped 2 percent.
Defenders of the Washington law say it isn't working because criminals are getting guns in Virginia, where the laws are more relaxed. But just across the Potomac River, Arlington, Va., has a murder rate less than 10 percent of that of Washington (7.0 murders versus 77.8 per 100,000 population). Can the difference be explained by the fact that Washington is a large city? Virginia's largest city, Virginia Beach, has a population of nearly 400,000, allows easy access to firearms - and has had one of the country's lowest murder rates for years (4.1 per 100,000 population in 1991).

An analysis of 19 types of gun control laws [Table I] concluded that not only do they fail to reduce rates of violence, they even fail "to reduce the use of guns or induce people to substitute other weapons in acts of violence."20 For example:21


When Morton Grove, Ill., outlawed handgun ownership, fewer than 20 were turned in.
After Evanston, Ill., a Chicago suburb of 75,000 residents, became the largest town to ban handgun ownership in September 1982, it experienced no decline in violent crime.
Among the 15 states with the highest homicide rates, 10 have restrictive or very restrictive gun laws.
20 percent of U.S. homicides occur in four cities with just 6 percent of the population - New York, Chicago, Detroit and Washington, D.C. - and each has a virtual prohibition on private handguns.
New York has one of the most restrictive gun laws in the nation - and 20 percent of the armed robberies. Even more troublesome is the fact that the places where gun control laws are toughest tend to be the places where the most crime is committed with illegal weapons
International Evidence.

Other countries have had similar experiences. After Canada passed a gun control law in 1977, the murder rate failed to decline but armed robbery and burglary, crimes frequently deterred by gun ownership, increased.23 (Canadian homicide rates are slightly lower than those in states along the U.S. border.) Violent crime accelerated in Taiwan and Jamaica after handguns were banned.24

Why Gun Control Laws May Benefit Criminals.

An increase in violent crime that appears to follow a tightening of controls on gun ownership and use is consistent with economic reasoning. Gun control laws are most likely to be obeyed by people who are otherwise law-abiding if, indeed, they are obeyed by anybody. Thus measures that apply equally to criminals and noncriminals, if they affect behavior at all, are almost certain to reduce gun possession more among noncriminals. As the popular slogan puts it: "If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns."

Scholarly studies have not been able to demonstrate any effect of gun control laws. But if there is an effect, it is likely to benefit criminals in two ways: fewer armed victims to worry about and fewer criminal justice resources to devote to prosecuting real criminals. If fewer potential victims have guns for defense, the balance of power tilts slightly toward criminals. The overall crime rate tends to increase, although guns may not be used in any more crimes because, on average, victim resistance is lowered.

Because more police resources are spent on gun registration, gun law enforcement and gun law convictions, fewer resources are available to deter real criminals. Arrests for weapons violations already exceed 220,000 per year,25 a nontrivial load on the criminal justice system. A Chicago judge from one of the two courtrooms exclusively dedicated to trying gun law offenses in that city testified a few years ago:26

The most striking experience I can take away from the Gun Court . . . is . . . the kinds of people that appear there as defendants. . . . This is their very first arrest of any kind. Many of them are old people, many of them are shopkeepers, persons who have been previous victims of violent crime.

Although many of these "criminals" get probation, the advocates of stricter gun laws press for mandatory sentencing. Meanwhile, punishments meted out for gun law violations not connected with real crimes tend to depress citizens' respect for law and the criminal justice system. As attorney David B. Kopel puts it, "In a world where first-time muggers often receive probation, it is morally outrageous to imprison . . . everyone who carries a firearm for self-defense."

http://www.ncpa.org/pub/st/st176/s176c.html

[lilwolf]

Forgot to add this little staement for all the people that are against or afraid of guns (for some reason) . Do you have a counter argument on this issue or are we right as usual?

[wyldejackyl]

Are you looking to pick a fight? You know LL will just bounce back with some skewed stats that "prove" he's right, when in fact he's comparing apples with oranges.

I wish IL would adopt CCW, even if it included training, so long as it was reasonable, and above all..NOT overly expensive.

[micfranklin]

I guarantee that some nut is going to denounce the OP's info as false information.

[Lucky Luke]

lilwolf wrote: While it has been said that gun control laws reduce crime there is very little evidence to back up that claim. In my opinion there are no real factual numbers that reveal the claim to be true.

Below are a few of the myths about reducing crime by gun control, and each one is exposed as blatant lies and fabrications.

Domestic Evidence.

If gun control laws have any effect, it may be to increase crime. For instance:19
New Jersey adopted what sponsors described as "the most stringent gun law" in the nation in 1966; two years later, the murder rate was up 46 percent and the reported robbery rate had nearly doubled.
In 1968, Hawaii imposed a series of increasingly harsh measures and its murder rate, then a low 2.4 per 100,000 per year, tripled to 7.2 by 1977.
In 1976, Washington, D.C., enacted one of the most restrictive gun control laws in the nation. Since then, the city's murder rate has risen 134 percent while the national murder rate has dropped 2 percent.
Defenders of the Washington law say it isn't working because criminals are getting guns in Virginia, where the laws are more relaxed. But just across the Potomac River, Arlington, Va., has a murder rate less than 10 percent of that of Washington (7.0 murders versus 77.8 per 100,000 population). Can the difference be explained by the fact that Washington is a large city? Virginia's largest city, Virginia Beach, has a population of nearly 400,000, allows easy access to firearms - and has had one of the country's lowest murder rates for years (4.1 per 100,000 population in 1991).

An analysis of 19 types of gun control laws [Table I] concluded that not only do they fail to reduce rates of violence, they even fail "to reduce the use of guns or induce people to substitute other weapons in acts of violence."20 For example:21


When Morton Grove, Ill., outlawed handgun ownership, fewer than 20 were turned in.
After Evanston, Ill., a Chicago suburb of 75,000 residents, became the largest town to ban handgun ownership in September 1982, it experienced no decline in violent crime.
Among the 15 states with the highest homicide rates, 10 have restrictive or very restrictive gun laws.
20 percent of U.S. homicides occur in four cities with just 6 percent of the population - New York, Chicago, Detroit and Washington, D.C. - and each has a virtual prohibition on private handguns.
New York has one of the most restrictive gun laws in the nation - and 20 percent of the armed robberies. Even more troublesome is the fact that the places where gun control laws are toughest tend to be the places where the most crime is committed with illegal weapons
International Evidence.

Other countries have had similar experiences. After Canada passed a gun control law in 1977, the murder rate failed to decline but armed robbery and burglary, crimes frequently deterred by gun ownership, increased.23 (Canadian homicide rates are slightly lower than those in states along the U.S. border.) Violent crime accelerated in Taiwan and Jamaica after handguns were banned.24

Why Gun Control Laws May Benefit Criminals.

An increase in violent crime that appears to follow a tightening of controls on gun ownership and use is consistent with economic reasoning. Gun control laws are most likely to be obeyed by people who are otherwise law-abiding if, indeed, they are obeyed by anybody. Thus measures that apply equally to criminals and noncriminals, if they affect behavior at all, are almost certain to reduce gun possession more among noncriminals. As the popular slogan puts it: "If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns."

Scholarly studies have not been able to demonstrate any effect of gun control laws. But if there is an effect, it is likely to benefit criminals in two ways: fewer armed victims to worry about and fewer criminal justice resources to devote to prosecuting real criminals. If fewer potential victims have guns for defense, the balance of power tilts slightly toward criminals. The overall crime rate tends to increase, although guns may not be used in any more crimes because, on average, victim resistance is lowered.

Because more police resources are spent on gun registration, gun law enforcement and gun law convictions, fewer resources are available to deter real criminals. Arrests for weapons violations already exceed 220,000 per year,25 a nontrivial load on the criminal justice system. A Chicago judge from one of the two courtrooms exclusively dedicated to trying gun law offenses in that city testified a few years ago:26

The most striking experience I can take away from the Gun Court . . . is . . . the kinds of people that appear there as defendants. . . . This is their very first arrest of any kind. Many of them are old people, many of them are shopkeepers, persons who have been previous victims of violent crime.

Although many of these "criminals" get probation, the advocates of stricter gun laws press for mandatory sentencing. Meanwhile, punishments meted out for gun law violations not connected with real crimes tend to depress citizens' respect for law and the criminal justice system. As attorney David B. Kopel puts it, "In a world where first-time muggers often receive probation, it is morally outrageous to imprison . . . everyone who carries a firearm for self-defense."

http://www.ncpa.org/pub/st/st176/s176c.html

Who said that gun control reduces crime Lilwolf?

:-D
:-D

[lilwolf]

Well good grief LL, thouands of cops across the nation and thousands of people. If I post say 100 stories that tell what happened you are going to scream and holler "propaganda".

So unless you've got a good argument then be quiet and go watch the vid LL. :lol:

Bang bang- lucky luke :lol: :lol:

[Lucky Luke]

lilwolf wrote: Well good grief LL, thouands of cops across the nation and thousands of people. If I post say 100 stories that tell what happened you are going to scream and holler "propaganda".

So unless you've got a good argument then be quiet and go watch the vid LL. :lol:

Bang bang- lucky luke :lol: :lol:

It is the morning here Lilwolf, I don't need your stories to go to sleep, stories are no proof, make your point.

Now who said that gun control reduces crime Lilwolf?

:-D
:-D

[lilwolf]

Lucky Luke wrote: lilwolf wrote: Well good grief LL, thouands of cops across the nation and thousands of people. If I post say 100 stories that tell what happened you are going to scream and holler "propaganda".

So unless you've got a good argument then be quiet and go watch the vid LL. :lol:

Bang bang- lucky luke :lol: :lol:

It is the morning here Lilwolf, I don't need your stories to go to sleep, stories are no proof, make your point.

Now who said that gun control reduces crime Lilwolf?

:-D
:-D


here are the sources for the article and if you had opened the link you could have done the same thing LL....quit being so f***** lazy.

19.Morgan O. Reynolds, Crime By Choice: An Economic Analysis (Dallas: Fisher Institute, 1985), pp. 165-68.


20.Kleck, Point Blank, p. 397-99.


21.Ibid., p. 408-11.


22.Ibid.


23.U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics, International Crime Rates, May 1988; and Ministry of Supply and Services, Canada Yearbook, 1980-81 (Ottawa, Canada: 1981), p. 55.


24.Kopel, The Samurai, The Mountie and the Cowboy, ch. 7.


25.U.S Bureau of Justice Statistics, Sourcebook of Criminal Statistics 1991, p. 432.


26.David T. Hardy, "Gun Control: Arm Yourself with Evidence," Reason, November 1982, p. 41.


27."Trust the People: The Case against Gun Control," Cato Policy Analysis No. 109, July 11, 1988, p. 29.


Also you have said and implied on multiple occassions that gun control reduces crime . The links you have provided have said the same thing and you have yet to prove that strict gun control in your manner would reduce crime. It has not done squat for the UK. You violent crime is off the chart and those numbers would all be a great deal lower if people had a way to defend themselves and not have to wait for a cop.

There are the sources so if you want to dispute them ...feel free because I am not going to argue with what they said because it is 100% right.
Prove the BJS wrong.....I have no interest in you or you pathetic whining about gun control. It has and is failing and you know what LL....44 states and counting and it is all the VOTERS that are keeping guns and the same VOTERS that like the laws the way they are.
Go ahead and bring your invalid pie chart here and I will say the same thing as I did before....it was not accepted because of the method and manner the questions were asked....
Have you watched the vid yet LL..... it's real good :lol: :lol: :lol:

[lilwolf]

It also appears that gun control is failing in New Jersey as well.

Gun Control Failing In New Jersey Cities

BONNIE PFISTER
Associated Press Writer


New Jersey has some of the strictest gun control laws in the nation, but shooting deaths in its major cities still surged last year.

Anti-gun activists point to weapons spilling into New Jersey from other states as a large part of the problem. On Saturday, they were adding their voices to an anti-war rally to draw attention to the danger of weapons at home.

"We think that it's entirely appropriate that this rally and march will be across a bridge between Pennsylvania and New Jersey, because it's across such bridges that guns come into our state that devastate our communities," said Bryan Miller, director of CeasefireNJ, which was joining members of Million Mom March at the rally.

According to prosecutors in Camden County, of the 252 guns used in crimes there in 2003-04 that could be traced to their original point of sale, 36 percent came from Pennsylvania, while only about 14 percent came from New Jersey.

The federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms found that from 1992 to 1998, 80 percent of guns confiscated in crimes in New Jersey had been smuggled in from other states, according to figures cited by Republican Assemblyman Richard Merkt
But Congress in recent years has restricted the amount of detail on gun tracing that the ATF may share with the public. Assemblyman Reed Gusciora, a Democrat and prosecutor in Trenton Municipal Court, is now pressing legislation that would require the state attorney general to begin compiling that data.

"The federal government has abdicated its responsibility in guns coming up through the border," Gusciora said. "New Jersey should at least track to find out which states these guns are coming from."

New Jersey, which received one of the highest state ratings from the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence earlier this year, already bans assault weapons, restricts gun sales and possession by minors and requires permits for all gun sales.

Andrew Arulanandam, a spokesman for the National Rifle Association, said that while he has not seen Gusciora's legislation, efforts to focus on legal gun purchases are misplaced.

"A vast majority of firearms used in crime are obtained in the black market," Arulanandam said. "The key is to strictly prosecute anyone who breaks the law, especially firearms law. If there's anyone involved in illegal gun trade, prosecute them
http://www.officer.com/article/article.jsp?siteSection=1&id=29348


Goes to show that if people want guns after the state has taken them away then they will still get them. Kinda shoots a hole in your theory about gun control working even for legal citizens and now if they want a gun you have illegal gun owners and they are just people that have had their right to own taken away from them.

[lilwolf]

Here is another one that shows clearly that gun control does not work. It shows that having guns is a strong deterent to crime.

Guns as a Tool against Crime

Several years ago the National Institute of Justice offered a grant to the former president of the American Sociological Association to survey the field of research on gun control. Peter Rossi began his work convinced of the need for strict national gun control. After looking at the data, however, Rossi and his University of Massachusetts colleagues James Wright and Kathleen Daly concluded that there was no convincing proof that gun control curbs crime.[4] A follow-up study by Wright and Rossi of serious felons in American prisons provided further evidence that gun control would not impede determined criminals. [5] It also indicated that civilian gun ownership does deter some crime. Three-fifths of the prisoners studied said that a criminal would not attack a potential victim who was known to be armed. Two-fifths of them had decided not to commit a crime because they thought the victim might have a gun. Criminals in states with higher civilian gun ownership rates worried the most about armed victims.

Real-world experiences validate the sociologists' findings. In 1966 the police in Orlando, Florida, responded to a rape epidemic by embarking on a highly publicized program to train 2,500 women in firearm use. The next year rape fell by 88 percent in Orlando (the only major city to experience a decrease that year); burglary fell by 25 percent. Not one of the 2,500 women actually ended up firing her weapon; the deterrent effect of the publicity sufficed. Five years later Orlando's rape rate was still 13 percent below the pre-program level, whereas the surrounding standard metropolitan area had suffered a 308 percent increase.[6] During a 1974 police strike in Albuquerque armed citizens patrolled their neighborhoods and shop owners publicly armed themselves; felonies dropped significantly.[7] In March 1982 Kennesaw, Georgia, enacted a law requiring householders to keep a gun at home; house burglaries fell from 65 per year to 26, and to 11 the following year.[8] Similar publicized training programs for gun-toting merchants sharply reduced robberies in stores in Highland Park, Michigan, and in New Orleans; a grocers organization's gun clinics produced the same result in Detroit.[9]

Gun control advocates note that only 2 burglars in 1,000 are driven off by armed homeowners. However, since a huge preponderance of burglaries take place when no one is home, the statistical citation is misleading. Several criminologists attribute the prevalence of daytime burglary to burglars' fear of confronting an armed occupant.[10] Indeed, a burglar's chance of being sent to jail is about the same as his chance of being shot by a victim if the burglar breaks into an occupied residence (1 to 2 percent in each case).[11
Do Gun Laws Disarm Criminals?

Although gun control advocates devote much attention to the alleged evils of guns and gun owners, they devote little attention to the particulars of devising a workable, enforceable law. Disarming criminals would be nearly impossible. There are between 100 and 140 million guns in the United States, a third of them handguns.[17] The ratio of people who commit handgun crimes each year to handguns is 1:400, that of handgun homicides to handguns is 1:3,600.[18] Because the ratio of handguns to handgun criminals is so high, the criminal supply would continue with barely an interruption. Even if 90 percent of American handguns disappeared, there would still be 40 left for every handgun criminal. In no state in the union can people with recent violent felony convictions purchase firearms. Yet the National Institute of Justice survey of prisoners, many of whom were repeat offenders, showed that 90 percent were able to obtain their last firearm within a few days. Most obtained it within a few hours. Three-quarters of the men agreed that they would have "no trouble" or "only a little trouble" obtaining a gun upon release, despite the legal barriers to such a purchase.[19]

Even if the entire American gun stock magically vanished, resupply for criminals would be easy. If small handguns were imported in the same physical volume as marijuana, 20 million would enter the country annually. (Current legal demand for new handguns is about 2.5 million a year). Bootleg gun manufacture requires no more than the tools that most Americans have in their garages. A zip gun can be made from tubing, tape, a pin, a key, whittle wood, and rubber bands. In fact, using wood fires and tools inferior to those in the Sears & Roebuck catalogue, Pakistani and Afghan peasants have been making firearms capable of firing the Russian AK-47 cartridge.[20] Bootleg ammunition is no harder to make than bootleg liquor. Although modern smokeless gunpowder is too complex for backyard production, conventional black powder is simple to manufacture.[21]

Apparently, illegal gun production is already common. A 1986 federal government study found that one-fifth of the guns seized by the police in Washington, D.C., were homemade.[22] Of course, homemade guns cannot win target-shooting contests, but they suffice for robbery purposes. Furthermore, the price of bootleg guns may even be lower than the price of the quality guns available now (just as, in prohibition days, bootleg gin often cost less than legal alcohol had).

Most police officers concur that gun control laws are ineffective. A 1986 questionnaire sent to every major police official in the country produced the following results: 97 percent believed that a firearms ownership ban would not reduce crime or keep criminals from using guns; 89 percent believed that gun control laws such as those in Chicago, Washington, D.C., and New York City had no effect on criminals; and 90 percent believed that if firearms ownership was banned, ordinary citizens would be more likely to be targets of armed violence.[23]

http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa109.html


The specific sources for the secions shown here are at the bottom of the link.

[micfranklin]

I anxiously await the anti-gun crowds response to this piece of information.

[lilwolf]

Well I have found this information on several different sites that all say the same thig... that guns reduce crime.
For example:

17th ANNUAL NATIONAL SURVEY RESULTS OF POLICE CHIEFS & SHERIFFS

The following survey questions were posed by mail of 22,587 Chiefs of Police and Sheriffs in the United States. It represents a cross section of professional command officers involving every state. The survey was conducted for the 17th consecutive year by the National Association of Chiefs of Police. (321)264-0911. www.aphf.org, policeinfo@aphf.org.This email address is being protected from spam bots, you need Javascript enabled to view it Permission to reproduce in whole or part is given if credit is given to the National Association of Chiefs of Police © 2005



FIREARMS
3. Should any law-abiding citizen be able to purchase a firearm for sport or self-defense? 93.6% yes
4. Within the past year, has your agency been called upon to arrest anyone who has made a false statement on an
application to purchase a firearm? 92.2% no
5. Should anyone (such as a convicted felon) in violation of state or federal firearm possession laws, be prosecuted by the U.S. Attorney and, if convicted, receive a maximum prison term? 89.7% yes
6. Do you believe law-abiding citizens should be limited to the purchase of no more than one firearm per month? 72.8% no
7. Do you maintain that criminals currently are able to obtain basically any type of firearm by illegal means? 96.1% yes
8. Do you believe the application & training process to allow commerical airline pilots to carry firearms in the cockpit is too restrictive and burdensome? 53.6% no
9. Will a national concealed handgun permit reduce rates of violent crime as recent studies in some states have already reflected? 63.1% yes


http://www.ohioccw.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3538&Itemid=67

So it would appear that the police chiefs think that gun reduce crime.

[Lucky Luke]

lilwolf wrote: Lucky Luke wrote: lilwolf wrote: Well good grief LL, thouands of cops across the nation and thousands of people. If I post say 100 stories that tell what happened you are going to scream and holler "propaganda".

So unless you've got a good argument then be quiet and go watch the vid LL. :lol:

Bang bang- lucky luke :lol: :lol:

It is the morning here Lilwolf, I don't need your stories to go to sleep, stories are no proof, make your point.

Now who said that gun control reduces crime Lilwolf?

:-D
:-D


here are the sources for the article and if you had opened the link you could have done the same thing LL....quit being so f***** lazy.

19.Morgan O. Reynolds, Crime By Choice: An Economic Analysis (Dallas: Fisher Institute, 1985), pp. 165-68.


20.Kleck, Point Blank, p. 397-99.


21.Ibid., p. 408-11.


22.Ibid.


23.U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics, International Crime Rates, May 1988; and Ministry of Supply and Services, Canada Yearbook, 1980-81 (Ottawa, Canada: 1981), p. 55.


24.Kopel, The Samurai, The Mountie and the Cowboy, ch. 7.


25.U.S Bureau of Justice Statistics, Sourcebook of Criminal Statistics 1991, p. 432.


26.David T. Hardy, "Gun Control: Arm Yourself with Evidence," Reason, November 1982, p. 41.


27."Trust the People: The Case against Gun Control," Cato Policy Analysis No. 109, July 11, 1988, p. 29.


Also you have said and implied on multiple occassions that gun control reduces crime . The links you have provided have said the same thing and you have yet to prove that strict gun control in your manner would reduce crime. It has not done squat for the UK. You violent crime is off the chart and those numbers would all be a great deal lower if people had a way to defend themselves and not have to wait for a cop.

There are the sources so if you want to dispute them ...feel free because I am not going to argue with what they said because it is 100% right.
Prove the BJS wrong.....I have no interest in you or you pathetic whining about gun control. It has and is failing and you know what LL....44 states and counting and it is all the VOTERS that are keeping guns and the same VOTERS that like the laws the way they are.
Go ahead and bring your invalid pie chart here and I will say the same thing as I did before....it was not accepted because of the method and manner the questions were asked....
Have you watched the vid yet LL..... it's real good :lol: :lol: :lol:

Those are no pro gun control sources Lilwolf show us the link for one pro gun control source that claims that gun control reduces crimes.

:-D
:-D

[Lucky Luke]

lilwolf wrote: Here is another one that shows clearly that gun control does not work. It shows that having guns is a strong deterent to crime.

Guns as a Tool against Crime

Several years ago the National Institute of Justice offered a grant to the former president of the American Sociological Association to survey the field of research on gun control. Peter Rossi began his work convinced of the need for strict national gun control. After looking at the data, however, Rossi and his University of Massachusetts colleagues James Wright and Kathleen Daly concluded that there was no convincing proof that gun control curbs crime.[4] A follow-up study by Wright and Rossi of serious felons in American prisons provided further evidence that gun control would not impede determined criminals. [5] It also indicated that civilian gun ownership does deter some crime. Three-fifths of the prisoners studied said that a criminal would not attack a potential victim who was known to be armed. Two-fifths of them had decided not to commit a crime because they thought the victim might have a gun. Criminals in states with higher civilian gun ownership rates worried the most about armed victims.

Real-world experiences validate the sociologists' findings. In 1966 the police in Orlando, Florida, responded to a rape epidemic by embarking on a highly publicized program to train 2,500 women in firearm use. The next year rape fell by 88 percent in Orlando (the only major city to experience a decrease that year); burglary fell by 25 percent. Not one of the 2,500 women actually ended up firing her weapon; the deterrent effect of the publicity sufficed. Five years later Orlando's rape rate was still 13 percent below the pre-program level, whereas the surrounding standard metropolitan area had suffered a 308 percent increase.[6] During a 1974 police strike in Albuquerque armed citizens patrolled their neighborhoods and shop owners publicly armed themselves; felonies dropped significantly.[7] In March 1982 Kennesaw, Georgia, enacted a law requiring householders to keep a gun at home; house burglaries fell from 65 per year to 26, and to 11 the following year.[8] Similar publicized training programs for gun-toting merchants sharply reduced robberies in stores in Highland Park, Michigan, and in New Orleans; a grocers organization's gun clinics produced the same result in Detroit.[9]

Gun control advocates note that only 2 burglars in 1,000 are driven off by armed homeowners. However, since a huge preponderance of burglaries take place when no one is home, the statistical citation is misleading. Several criminologists attribute the prevalence of daytime burglary to burglars' fear of confronting an armed occupant.[10] Indeed, a burglar's chance of being sent to jail is about the same as his chance of being shot by a victim if the burglar breaks into an occupied residence (1 to 2 percent in each case).[11
Do Gun Laws Disarm Criminals?

Although gun control advocates devote much attention to the alleged evils of guns and gun owners, they devote little attention to the particulars of devising a workable, enforceable law. Disarming criminals would be nearly impossible. There are between 100 and 140 million guns in the United States, a third of them handguns.[17] The ratio of people who commit handgun crimes each year to handguns is 1:400, that of handgun homicides to handguns is 1:3,600.[18] Because the ratio of handguns to handgun criminals is so high, the criminal supply would continue with barely an interruption. Even if 90 percent of American handguns disappeared, there would still be 40 left for every handgun criminal. In no state in the union can people with recent violent felony convictions purchase firearms. Yet the National Institute of Justice survey of prisoners, many of whom were repeat offenders, showed that 90 percent were able to obtain their last firearm within a few days. Most obtained it within a few hours. Three-quarters of the men agreed that they would have "no trouble" or "only a little trouble" obtaining a gun upon release, despite the legal barriers to such a purchase.[19]

Even if the entire American gun stock magically vanished, resupply for criminals would be easy. If small handguns were imported in the same physical volume as marijuana, 20 million would enter the country annually. (Current legal demand for new handguns is about 2.5 million a year). Bootleg gun manufacture requires no more than the tools that most Americans have in their garages. A zip gun can be made from tubing, tape, a pin, a key, whittle wood, and rubber bands. In fact, using wood fires and tools inferior to those in the Sears & Roebuck catalogue, Pakistani and Afghan peasants have been making firearms capable of firing the Russian AK-47 cartridge.[20] Bootleg ammunition is no harder to make than bootleg liquor. Although modern smokeless gunpowder is too complex for backyard production, conventional black powder is simple to manufacture.[21]

Apparently, illegal gun production is already common. A 1986 federal government study found that one-fifth of the guns seized by the police in Washington, D.C., were homemade.[22] Of course, homemade guns cannot win target-shooting contests, but they suffice for robbery purposes. Furthermore, the price of bootleg guns may even be lower than the price of the quality guns available now (just as, in prohibition days, bootleg gin often cost less than legal alcohol had).

Most police officers concur that gun control laws are ineffective. A 1986 questionnaire sent to every major police official in the country produced the following results: 97 percent believed that a firearms ownership ban would not reduce crime or keep criminals from using guns; 89 percent believed that gun control laws such as those in Chicago, Washington, D.C., and New York City had no effect on criminals; and 90 percent believed that if firearms ownership was banned, ordinary citizens would be more likely to be targets of armed violence.[23]

http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa109.html


The specific sources for the secions shown here are at the bottom of the link.

You are showing more of the anti gun control crowd telling us that gun control doesn't curb crimes but Lilwolf who said that gun control does curb crimes, who Lilwolf?

:-D
:-D

[lilwolf]

Do it yourself LL. The sources and information is right there where anyone else could do it and some have so feel free to have fun and discredit the BJS. Have fun

[lilwolf]

Lucky Luke wrote: lilwolf wrote: Here is another one that shows clearly that gun control does not work. It shows that having guns is a strong deterent to crime.

Guns as a Tool against Crime

Several years ago the National Institute of Justice offered a grant to the former president of the American Sociological Association to survey the field of research on gun control. Peter Rossi began his work convinced of the need for strict national gun control. After looking at the data, however, Rossi and his University of Massachusetts colleagues James Wright and Kathleen Daly concluded that there was no convincing proof that gun control curbs crime.[4] A follow-up study by Wright and Rossi of serious felons in American prisons provided further evidence that gun control would not impede determined criminals. [5] It also indicated that civilian gun ownership does deter some crime. Three-fifths of the prisoners studied said that a criminal would not attack a potential victim who was known to be armed. Two-fifths of them had decided not to commit a crime because they thought the victim might have a gun. Criminals in states with higher civilian gun ownership rates worried the most about armed victims.

Real-world experiences validate the sociologists' findings. In 1966 the police in Orlando, Florida, responded to a rape epidemic by embarking on a highly publicized program to train 2,500 women in firearm use. The next year rape fell by 88 percent in Orlando (the only major city to experience a decrease that year); burglary fell by 25 percent. Not one of the 2,500 women actually ended up firing her weapon; the deterrent effect of the publicity sufficed. Five years later Orlando's rape rate was still 13 percent below the pre-program level, whereas the surrounding standard metropolitan area had suffered a 308 percent increase.[6] During a 1974 police strike in Albuquerque armed citizens patrolled their neighborhoods and shop owners publicly armed themselves; felonies dropped significantly.[7] In March 1982 Kennesaw, Georgia, enacted a law requiring householders to keep a gun at home; house burglaries fell from 65 per year to 26, and to 11 the following year.[8] Similar publicized training programs for gun-toting merchants sharply reduced robberies in stores in Highland Park, Michigan, and in New Orleans; a grocers organization's gun clinics produced the same result in Detroit.[9]

Gun control advocates note that only 2 burglars in 1,000 are driven off by armed homeowners. However, since a huge preponderance of burglaries take place when no one is home, the statistical citation is misleading. Several criminologists attribute the prevalence of daytime burglary to burglars' fear of confronting an armed occupant.[10] Indeed, a burglar's chance of being sent to jail is about the same as his chance of being shot by a victim if the burglar breaks into an occupied residence (1 to 2 percent in each case).[11
Do Gun Laws Disarm Criminals?

Although gun control advocates devote much attention to the alleged evils of guns and gun owners, they devote little attention to the particulars of devising a workable, enforceable law. Disarming criminals would be nearly impossible. There are between 100 and 140 million guns in the United States, a third of them handguns.[17] The ratio of people who commit handgun crimes each year to handguns is 1:400, that of handgun homicides to handguns is 1:3,600.[18] Because the ratio of handguns to handgun criminals is so high, the criminal supply would continue with barely an interruption. Even if 90 percent of American handguns disappeared, there would still be 40 left for every handgun criminal. In no state in the union can people with recent violent felony convictions purchase firearms. Yet the National Institute of Justice survey of prisoners, many of whom were repeat offenders, showed that 90 percent were able to obtain their last firearm within a few days. Most obtained it within a few hours. Three-quarters of the men agreed that they would have "no trouble" or "only a little trouble" obtaining a gun upon release, despite the legal barriers to such a purchase.[19]

Even if the entire American gun stock magically vanished, resupply for criminals would be easy. If small handguns were imported in the same physical volume as marijuana, 20 million would enter the country annually. (Current legal demand for new handguns is about 2.5 million a year). Bootleg gun manufacture requires no more than the tools that most Americans have in their garages. A zip gun can be made from tubing, tape, a pin, a key, whittle wood, and rubber bands. In fact, using wood fires and tools inferior to those in the Sears & Roebuck catalogue, Pakistani and Afghan peasants have been making firearms capable of firing the Russian AK-47 cartridge.[20] Bootleg ammunition is no harder to make than bootleg liquor. Although modern smokeless gunpowder is too complex for backyard production, conventional black powder is simple to manufacture.[21]

Apparently, illegal gun production is already common. A 1986 federal government study found that one-fifth of the guns seized by the police in Washington, D.C., were homemade.[22] Of course, homemade guns cannot win target-shooting contests, but they suffice for robbery purposes. Furthermore, the price of bootleg guns may even be lower than the price of the quality guns available now (just as, in prohibition days, bootleg gin often cost less than legal alcohol had).

Most police officers concur that gun control laws are ineffective. A 1986 questionnaire sent to every major police official in the country produced the following results: 97 percent believed that a firearms ownership ban would not reduce crime or keep criminals from using guns; 89 percent believed that gun control laws such as those in Chicago, Washington, D.C., and New York City had no effect on criminals; and 90 percent believed that if firearms ownership was banned, ordinary citizens would be more likely to be targets of armed violence.[23]

http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa109.html


The specific sources for the secions shown here are at the bottom of the link.

You are showing more of the anti gun control crowd telling us that gun control doesn't curb crimes but Lilwolf who said that gun control does curb crimes, who Lilwolf?

:-D
:-D

So read the highlighted parts if you can do that and learn something LL. You are just being stupid. You do not like the sources they quote in the article so what ...I did not write it.... You challenge them and their sources.. Have fun :rotf:

[Lucky Luke]

lilwolf wrote: Well I have found this information on several different sites that all say the same thig... that guns reduce crime.
For example:

17th ANNUAL NATIONAL SURVEY RESULTS OF POLICE CHIEFS & SHERIFFS

The following survey questions were posed by mail of 22,587 Chiefs of Police and Sheriffs in the United States. It represents a cross section of professional command officers involving every state. The survey was conducted for the 17th consecutive year by the National Association of Chiefs of Police. (321)264-0911. www.aphf.org, policeinfo@aphf.org.This email address is being protected from spam bots, you need Javascript enabled to view it Permission to reproduce in whole or part is given if credit is given to the National Association of Chiefs of Police © 2005



FIREARMS
3. Should any law-abiding citizen be able to purchase a firearm for sport or self-defense? 93.6% yes
4. Within the past year, has your agency been called upon to arrest anyone who has made a false statement on an
application to purchase a firearm? 92.2% no
5. Should anyone (such as a convicted felon) in violation of state or federal firearm possession laws, be prosecuted by the U.S. Attorney and, if convicted, receive a maximum prison term? 89.7% yes
6. Do you believe law-abiding citizens should be limited to the purchase of no more than one firearm per month? 72.8% no
7. Do you maintain that criminals currently are able to obtain basically any type of firearm by illegal means? 96.1% yes
8. Do you believe the application & training process to allow commerical airline pilots to carry firearms in the cockpit is too restrictive and burdensome? 53.6% no
9. Will a national concealed handgun permit reduce rates of violent crime as recent studies in some states have already reflected? 63.1% yes


http://www.ohioccw.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3538&Itemid=67

So it would appear that the police chiefs think that gun reduce crime.

Why are you changing the topic of your thread Lilwolf?

You said that the claim that gun control reduces crimes was false, but who made this claim Lilwolf, who?

:-D
:-D

[lilwolf]

Lucky Luke wrote: lilwolf wrote: Well I have found this information on several different sites that all say the same thig... that guns reduce crime.
For example:

17th ANNUAL NATIONAL SURVEY RESULTS OF POLICE CHIEFS & SHERIFFS

The following survey questions were posed by mail of 22,587 Chiefs of Police and Sheriffs in the United States. It represents a cross section of professional command officers involving every state. The survey was conducted for the 17th consecutive year by the National Association of Chiefs of Police. (321)264-0911. www.aphf.org, policeinfo@aphf.org.This email address is being protected from spam bots, you need Javascript enabled to view it Permission to reproduce in whole or part is given if credit is given to the National Association of Chiefs of Police © 2005



FIREARMS
3. Should any law-abiding citizen be able to purchase a firearm for sport or self-defense? 93.6% yes
4. Within the past year, has your agency been called upon to arrest anyone who has made a false statement on an
application to purchase a firearm? 92.2% no
5. Should anyone (such as a convicted felon) in violation of state or federal firearm possession laws, be prosecuted by the U.S. Attorney and, if convicted, receive a maximum prison term? 89.7% yes
6. Do you believe law-abiding citizens should be limited to the purchase of no more than one firearm per month? 72.8% no
7. Do you maintain that criminals currently are able to obtain basically any type of firearm by illegal means? 96.1% yes
8. Do you believe the application & training process to allow commerical airline pilots to carry firearms in the cockpit is too restrictive and burdensome? 53.6% no
9. Will a national concealed handgun permit reduce rates of violent crime as recent studies in some states have already reflected? 63.1% yes


http://www.ohioccw.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3538&Itemid=67

So it would appear that the police chiefs think that gun reduce crime.

Why are you changing the topic of your thread Lilwolf?

You said that the claim that gun control reduces crimes was false, but who made this claim Lilwolf, who?

:-D
:-D

The point of the survey that was given to all those police chiefs is question # 9...that is why the entire thing is there...no spin and did not re direct the subject.. CCW in their opinion says you are wrong LL.. so you don't like it complain to them I just post it as I read and see it... :rotf:

[Lucky Luke]

lilwolf wrote: Lucky Luke wrote: lilwolf wrote: Here is another one that shows clearly that gun control does not work. It shows that having guns is a strong deterent to crime.

Guns as a Tool against Crime

Several years ago the National Institute of Justice offered a grant to the former president of the American Sociological Association to survey the field of research on gun control. Peter Rossi began his work convinced of the need for strict national gun control. After looking at the data, however, Rossi and his University of Massachusetts colleagues James Wright and Kathleen Daly concluded that there was no convincing proof that gun control curbs crime.[4] A follow-up study by Wright and Rossi of serious felons in American prisons provided further evidence that gun control would not impede determined criminals. [5] It also indicated that civilian gun ownership does deter some crime. Three-fifths of the prisoners studied said that a criminal would not attack a potential victim who was known to be armed. Two-fifths of them had decided not to commit a crime because they thought the victim might have a gun. Criminals in states with higher civilian gun ownership rates worried the most about armed victims.

Real-world experiences validate the sociologists' findings. In 1966 the police in Orlando, Florida, responded to a rape epidemic by embarking on a highly publicized program to train 2,500 women in firearm use. The next year rape fell by 88 percent in Orlando (the only major city to experience a decrease that year); burglary fell by 25 percent. Not one of the 2,500 women actually ended up firing her weapon; the deterrent effect of the publicity sufficed. Five years later Orlando's rape rate was still 13 percent below the pre-program level, whereas the surrounding standard metropolitan area had suffered a 308 percent increase.[6] During a 1974 police strike in Albuquerque armed citizens patrolled their neighborhoods and shop owners publicly armed themselves; felonies dropped significantly.[7] In March 1982 Kennesaw, Georgia, enacted a law requiring householders to keep a gun at home; house burglaries fell from 65 per year to 26, and to 11 the following year.[8] Similar publicized training programs for gun-toting merchants sharply reduced robberies in stores in Highland Park, Michigan, and in New Orleans; a grocers organization's gun clinics produced the same result in Detroit.[9]

Gun control advocates note that only 2 burglars in 1,000 are driven off by armed homeowners. However, since a huge preponderance of burglaries take place when no one is home, the statistical citation is misleading. Several criminologists attribute the prevalence of daytime burglary to burglars' fear of confronting an armed occupant.[10] Indeed, a burglar's chance of being sent to jail is about the same as his chance of being shot by a victim if the burglar breaks into an occupied residence (1 to 2 percent in each case).[11
Do Gun Laws Disarm Criminals?

Although gun control advocates devote much attention to the alleged evils of guns and gun owners, they devote little attention to the particulars of devising a workable, enforceable law. Disarming criminals would be nearly impossible. There are between 100 and 140 million guns in the United States, a third of them handguns.[17] The ratio of people who commit handgun crimes each year to handguns is 1:400, that of handgun homicides to handguns is 1:3,600.[18] Because the ratio of handguns to handgun criminals is so high, the criminal supply would continue with barely an interruption. Even if 90 percent of American handguns disappeared, there would still be 40 left for every handgun criminal. In no state in the union can people with recent violent felony convictions purchase firearms. Yet the National Institute of Justice survey of prisoners, many of whom were repeat offenders, showed that 90 percent were able to obtain their last firearm within a few days. Most obtained it within a few hours. Three-quarters of the men agreed that they would have "no trouble" or "only a little trouble" obtaining a gun upon release, despite the legal barriers to such a purchase.[19]

Even if the entire American gun stock magically vanished, resupply for criminals would be easy. If small handguns were imported in the same physical volume as marijuana, 20 million would enter the country annually. (Current legal demand for new handguns is about 2.5 million a year). Bootleg gun manufacture requires no more than the tools that most Americans have in their garages. A zip gun can be made from tubing, tape, a pin, a key, whittle wood, and rubber bands. In fact, using wood fires and tools inferior to those in the Sears & Roebuck catalogue, Pakistani and Afghan peasants have been making firearms capable of firing the Russian AK-47 cartridge.[20] Bootleg ammunition is no harder to make than bootleg liquor. Although modern smokeless gunpowder is too complex for backyard production, conventional black powder is simple to manufacture.[21]

Apparently, illegal gun production is already common. A 1986 federal government study found that one-fifth of the guns seized by the police in Washington, D.C., were homemade.[22] Of course, homemade guns cannot win target-shooting contests, but they suffice for robbery purposes. Furthermore, the price of bootleg guns may even be lower than the price of the quality guns available now (just as, in prohibition days, bootleg gin often cost less than legal alcohol had).

Most police officers concur that gun control laws are ineffective. A 1986 questionnaire sent to every major police official in the country produced the following results: 97 percent believed that a firearms ownership ban would not reduce crime or keep criminals from using guns; 89 percent believed that gun control laws such as those in Chicago, Washington, D.C., and New York City had no effect on criminals; and 90 percent believed that if firearms ownership was banned, ordinary citizens would be more likely to be targets of armed violence.[23]

http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa109.html


The specific sources for the secions shown here are at the bottom of the link.

You are showing more of the anti gun control crowd telling us that gun control doesn't curb crimes but Lilwolf who said that gun control does curb crimes, who Lilwolf?

:-D
:-D

So read the highlighted parts if you can do that and learn something LL. You are just being stupid. You do not like the sources they quote in the article so what ...I did not write it.... You challenge them and their sources.. Have fun :rotf:

I read all your highlighted parts Lilwolf and none of them are claiming that gun control reduces crimes, where on earth is the source that claims that gun control reduces crimes Lilwolf, where?

:-D
:-D

[lilwolf]

It is right there in front of you and if you cannot read well this subject went into the toilet....do your own homework LL... :gdgf: