Political Crossfire Forums

[prometeus]

slitedeviance wrote: prometeus wrote: NO

People like that, who uphold their oath only when it is convenient or when it fits their personal views, not the universal application as taken (the oath) would not make their "superior aware" on something like that.

My point is, you raised a question about his capacity to fully carry out his duties in light of his feelings towards the situation in Lebanon / Israel...

Quote: what would have happened if that policemen came across a bomber? Maybe he would have let him go because he sympathizes with his "roots"?

If he had this doubt himself would you rather that he advised his superiors that he was not able to carry out his duties fully, or that he went ahead and was put in a position where his personal feelings could undermine the effectiveness of the police force at the Israeli embassy?

If he had any doubts at any time about performing ANY part of his job he should have not become a policeman. If he did not know that there may be parts of his job that could conflict with his personal views / feelings he is too stupid and therefore should not be a policeman anyway. A it is now he is only a bigot with no honor.

[Venom]

Quote: the police officer is labanese, he is a muslim, his family live in southern lebanon, and were under severe attack when israel were attacking lebanon
So couldn't a cop that was Jewish with family in Israel say no to guarding the Lebanese Embassy in the UK?

Quote: doubt very much that his senior commanders in the police force took this decision lightly, and there must have been a real issue for concern for this to have gone through without him being asked to leave his job. and apart from the issues he has with not feeling it's safe for him to do so because of his family in lebanon and in the UK, and due to political grounds or whatever the reasons, this story should never have made the splash it did, his request and the decision by the police force should have been confidential not splashed all voer tabloid news to get people riling. had the issue not been about a muslim and the israeli embassy no one would have cared an ounce.

Why should it be confidential? He is a public servant, paid by taxes is he not? He has an issue with protecting Israeli's. I guess Jews shouldn't ever have to protect anything German? If he had been a Christian, a Jew, a Buddhist I would have cared. I would believe that person to be ignorant to their sworn duty and a bigot.

Quote: i find the mixing with jews and israel and somehow if you dislike israel therefore you dislike jews not true. i dont agree with iraeli action, but that has nothing to do with judaism
Well it's great you feel that way, however an alarming number of Muslims associrate Israel as a pure Jewish state, and Jews as the enemy. Allowing a police officer to not have to perform his duty because it's protecting Israeli's is a horrible decision by the Police in the UK.

Quote: also dont agree with british action in iraq do i now dislike myself as well because i'm british?
Well if you were a cop and refused to guard British because of it that would be quite an issue wouldn't it.

Quote: i dont agree with the actions of those that use islam as some excuse to kill, does that mean i dislike myself for being a muslim?
Well if you refused to guard a largely muslim nations embassy like Iran that would be an issue if you were a cop. What if a Jewish cop refused to guard Iran's embassy because of their anti-semtic remarks? Would that be ok with you?

[quote]i cant udnerstand why it's so very easy for you to see the israeli side as being people under attack and opressed etc etc......yet find it so difficult to understand that the palestinians are suffering just the same[/quoe]
Why? Because the Israelis have time and time again come to the table for peace talks while being attacked non stop by their enemies, including very much the Palestinians whom seem to shoo away any peace talks that come up and then cry about their situation. Also they voted a terrorist organization into government. So I'm not sorry I do not feel sympathy towards the Palestinians.

[emerald]

Quote: I ama really amazed that hwat appears as reasonable people can actually simpatize and understand this kind of bigotted attitude (the policeman's)

It is precisely this kind of appeasement and biased attitude on the part of those who sympathize and the policeman, that perpetuated that climate of terrorism and hatred. "I think..." and "I doubt very much..." hardly amount to the slightest reasoning. Dereliction of duty for which an oath was given, on the other hand does not need to be reasoned with. It is plain wrong and it has to be dealt with. Did you or bonobo stop to think what would have happened if that policemen came across a bomber? Maybe he would have let him go because he sympathizes with his "roots"?

it is ok for people to disagree, and there is a huge difference between deciding whether you'd defend an embassy out of political concerns or family welfare, or whatever the reason, because no one is actually sure, than for a police officer living in the UK no matter what religion or where he's from to allow a bomber to kill innocent people. honestly i know many of you have little regard for muslims but seriously we're not all out to kill the rest of the non muslim world

Quote: So couldn't a cop that was Jewish with family in Israel say no to guarding the Lebanese Embassy in the UK?

yes he could, and if his senior commanders were ok with it, then i'd have no issue with it.

Quote: Why should it be confidential? He is a public servant, paid by taxes is he not? He has an issue with protecting Israeli's. I guess Jews shouldn't ever have to protect anything German? If he had been a Christian, a Jew, a Buddhist I would have cared. I would believe that person to be ignorant to their sworn duty and a bigot.

because that meeting where he must have voiced his concerns over the job and where his senior commanders must have made up their mind and come to a decision to excuse him would have been confidential, why was it leaked to the tabloid news? so everyone can have a rave about how much muslims hate israelis but it's obviously not the same the other way round??

Quote: Well it's great you feel that way, however an alarming number of Muslims associrate Israel as a pure Jewish state, and Jews as the enemy. Allowing a police officer to not have to perform his duty because it's protecting Israeli's is a horrible decision by the Police in the UK.

the simple point is, a decision was made that meant that this officer was excused for whatever reason, as horrible a decision as that may be to you, it has happened and there was a reason for it.

Quote: Well if you were a cop and refused to guard British because of it that would be quite an issue wouldn't it.

if i was a cop i would do the job i was told to do, jus because i dont see a problem with him having concerns over his duties does not mean i dont think its important that he should have followed them, but if his superior officers accepted his concerns then it isnt technically our buisness, and i think theres a lot more to it than what is out there in the media.

Quote: What if a Jewish cop refused to guard Iran's embassy because of their anti-semtic remarks? Would that be ok with you?

yes it would be!


Quote: Why? Because the Israelis have time and time again come to the table for peace talks while being attacked non stop by their enemies, including very much the Palestinians whom seem to shoo away any peace talks that come up and then cry about their situation. Also they voted a terrorist organization into government. So I'm not sorry I do not feel sympathy towards the Palestinians.

hmmmmmm......thats a shame when u can only see things from one perspective, it just means it skews the whole picture

[slitedeviance]

prometeus wrote: If he had any doubts at any time about performing ANY part of his job he should have not become a policeman. If he did not know that there may be parts of his job that could conflict with his personal views / feelings he is too stupid and therefore should not be a policeman anyway. A it is now he is only a bigot with no honor.

I'm trying really hard to find something here I can agree with.... and failing.

When he became a policeman the situation between Israel and Lebanon was not as it is now, so it's unfair to say he should have had some level of clairvoyance with regards to this.

Also, he has actually acted in the best interest of the Israeli embassy. You said yourself, if he was guarding the place there would be queries about whether he was able to fully to protect it given his personal feelings, so why does he get attacked for realising he is not able to do this and refusing the posting?

This is all being blown out of proportion. It's one guys choice, and his superiors agreed on the course of action with him. Personally I'd rather trust the opinion of these guys who understand the ramifications of this than people just using this as a way to try and score cheap points.

[prometeus]

slitedeviance wrote: I'm trying really hard to find something here I can agree with.... and failing.

Look it is entirely your privilege not to see things my way. I have no ill feelings about that, on the contrary I respect the honesty of your view. I do not understand it, but I respect it.
I still stand by my position, simply because of its special circumstance, namely that the man was/is a police officer. Had he been a business man and refused to transact with Israel, I could see that, but as a policeman he took an oath to perform his duty. Somethings in life are just greater than any one individual.

As far as cheap points, that is a cheap shot. Last I looked there were no prizes awarded here nor winners declared, not even score kept. The only thing we have here, I hope, is frank discussion, albeit sometimes a bit heated.

[maxtsu]

Deus wrote: Venom wrote: Source

Is this not discrimination versus the Jews? What if a white cop refused to guard an African embassy? Wouldn't that be bashed as racism?

Oh and apparently the UK government is ok with this.

Israel != jews

Its based on Israels action not the jews.
You got there before me...Agree.
If someone takes action against Israel does not make them anti-semite.

[slitedeviance]

prometeus wrote: I still stand by my position, simply because of its special circumstance, namely that the man was/is a police officer. Had he been a business man and refused to transact with Israel, I could see that, but as a policeman he took an oath to perform his duty. Somethings in life are just greater than any one individual.

We'll probably just have to disagree on this one. I can understand that as a police officer he does have responsibilities that extend beyond those of people in 'normal' jobs. But I still stand by what I feel about it being better for everyone for him to have stood down from the post.

Quote: As far as cheap points, that is a cheap shot.

That wasn't directed at you. It was more an expression of my lack of trust in the reasoning as to why this became a national issue. Had it not been for the timing of this then I could never see this becoming national news and such a talking point in places like this.

[prometeus]

Fair enough...