Political Crossfire Forums

Freemason · Joined: 07 Mar 2005 Posts: 614

This is the title of a book The Cousins' Wars: Religion, Politics, and the Triumph of Anglo-America

It is quite an amazing book actually but more than that this thread should discuss the time period of about 1600 to 1865.

It should be more than a mere discussion - rather I want it to be an illustration of culture. Because the Anglo world is probably one such world that is oft-forgot and it is principally because the music is forgotten.

Shule Agra

Who can know that song without going to that link? If you can you are certainly more astute to tid-bits of history.

To me what is most interesting about that song is that it (among others) can be traced...

You can follow that song from the civil wars in the British Isles to the Jacobite Revolution to the American Revolution to the American Civil War.

Why? Because of the migrations of the celtic peoples of the Isles - constantly at war with the "British". The largest support for the Crown came from the English in the Colonies - the largest support for the Republic came from Irish, Scottish, and Germans in the Colonies.

Civil Wars marked the birth of the Anglican world and we've known only 140 years of true "peace" - and it took only that much time to forget it all...

thundertaker · Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:26 am Post subject:

But in the 'English' Civil War, largest support for the Crown came from the celtic peoples, especially the Irish, Welsh and Cornish. That kind of scuppers that theory.......

Esin · Joined: 08 Jun 2005 Posts: 1164 Location: Florida

And didn't the Jacobite revolution occure after the Yankee Revolution. :)

eynon · Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:30 am Post subject:

you got it kinda backwards;

the largest support for the crown came from the Scots in Carolina, the most fervent patriots were the Anglos in New England.

thundertaker · Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 11:11 am Post subject:

Esin wrote: And didn't the Jacobite revolution occure after the Yankee Revolution. :)

No. There were three main jacobite revolts. One in 1689 (Which ended in Scotland after it's first battle, in which the Jacobites defeated the Hanovarian army at Killikrankie, but in which their leader, 'Bonnie Dundee' was killed). The Williamite wars in Ireland were connected with this revolt....

The Second was in 1715, during which Preston was occupied for a time, but that petered out in 1719.

The Third and last Jacobite Revolt was in 1745, in which Bonnie Prince Charlie (The Young Pretender) landed in the Highlands of Scotland and in a lightening campaign, managed to over-run scotland and the North of England.
The Hanovarian regime had few troops in the country, and the destruction of a large part of their forces at Prestonpans and Falkirk left London dangerously vulnerable.
The Jacobites made it as far south as Derby, and could have taken London were it not for the fact that a Hanovarian agent falsely gave the Jacobite war council the impression that a large Hanoevarian army was waiting for them.
In 1746, the Jacobites were finally defeated at Culloden, the last battle ever to be fought on British soil. Some 30 years before the start of the American revolution......

Incidently, althought there were three chief jacobite revolts, the second and third are called the first and second respectively in official sources, as they occured after the act of Union in 1707, when Great Britain first came into existance as a political entity.....

philm · Joined: 10 Oct 2006 Posts: 85 Location: cumbernauld

To THUNDERTAKER,
the Battle of Falkirk was fought AFTER the retreat from Derby, weeks before Culloden. Not months as your post alludes.
Both Prestonpans and Falkirk were fought against inferior troops led by inferior commanders.
Incidentally with better execution, the Highlanders' battle plan at Culloden may have been as successful as previous encounters. Despite all, Cumberland was an able soldier and he made short work of the Jacobites, with horrendous consequences for the highland people.
Another point Washington, Jefferson...
...hardly Celtic names are they?

thundertaker · Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 4:21 am Post subject:

My mistake.

BTW, Thomas Jefferson was of welsh descent. Which would make him celtic. Washington's family, on the other hand, was originally from Lancashire......

eynon · Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:23 am Post subject:

thundertaker wrote: My mistake.

BTW, Thomas Jefferson was of welsh descent. Which would make him celtic. Washington's family, on the other hand, was originally from Lancashire......

Jefferson may have been of Welsh desent, as were many living in colonies at the outbreak of war, but those people saw themseves as more akine to people of English decent(Anglo-American) then to those of Scottish or Irish lineage.

Freemason · Joined: 07 Mar 2005 Posts: 614

thundertaker wrote: But in the 'English' Civil War, largest support for the Crown came from the celtic peoples, especially the Irish, Welsh and Cornish. That kind of scuppers that theory.......

I'm sorry that was an error in writing not theory - the largest support of the crown came from the Celtics yes, the largest support of the Parliamentary forces came from the English - in the end result was an stronger English parliament and English king and the alienation of celtic peoples in the politics of the Isles - several more rebellions would follow until the last in the 1750s or around theres...etc.

Hope that clarifies.

thundertaker · Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 7:27 am Post subject:

How did the English King become stronger due to the Civil War?!? Charles I lost his head, and his successors were emasculated and the supremacy of Parliament was established (especially after the glorious revolution of 1689)......

Esin · Joined: 08 Jun 2005 Posts: 1164 Location: Florida

thundertaker wrote: Esin wrote: And didn't the Jacobite revolution occure after the Yankee Revolution. :)

No. There were three main jacobite revolts. One in 1689 (Which ended in Scotland after it's first battle, in which the Jacobites defeated the Hanovarian army at Killikrankie, but in which their leader, 'Bonnie Dundee' was killed). The Williamite wars in Ireland were connected with this revolt....

The Second was in 1715, during which Preston was occupied for a time, but that petered out in 1719.

The Third and last Jacobite Revolt was in 1745, in which Bonnie Prince Charlie (The Young Pretender) landed in the Highlands of Scotland and in a lightening campaign, managed to over-run scotland and the North of England.
The Hanovarian regime had few troops in the country, and the destruction of a large part of their forces at Prestonpans and Falkirk left London dangerously vulnerable.
The Jacobites made it as far south as Derby, and could have taken London were it not for the fact that a Hanovarian agent falsely gave the Jacobite war council the impression that a large Hanoevarian army was waiting for them.
In 1746, the Jacobites were finally defeated at Culloden, the last battle ever to be fought on British soil. Some 30 years before the start of the American revolution......

Incidently, althought there were three chief jacobite revolts, the second and third are called the first and second respectively in official sources, as they occured after the act of Union in 1707, when Great Britain first came into existance as a political entity.....

Actually, I'd misunderstood the Jacobite Revolution as being the same as the Jacobin Revolution in France. My bad.

thundertaker · Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:58 pm Post subject:

Oops, I noticed another mistake their as well. The Jacobites were fighting the Oranges in 1689, the Hanovarians didn't take over until 1714.......

eynon · Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 2:57 am Post subject:

thundertaker wrote: Oops, I noticed another mistake their as well. The Jacobites were fighting the Oranges in 1689, the Hanovarians didn't take over until 1714.......

was gonna say :wink:

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Quote: Another point Washington, Jefferson...
...hardly Celtic names are they?

In the South, where many folks of Celtic heritage immigrated you will find family traditions to this day that are derived from these wars, for instance, to this day my family has a tradition to only plant white roses on our property.

This has been passed down for generations, by people who didn't even know why they had these traditions.

thundertaker · Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 4:32 am Post subject:

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: Another point Washington, Jefferson...
...hardly Celtic names are they?

In the South, where many folks of Celtic heritage immigrated you will find family traditions to this day that are derived from these wars, for instance, to this day my family has a tradition to only plant white roses on our property.

This has been passed down for generations, by people who didn't even know why they had these traditions.

Presumably, that's out of support for the Jacobite cause?

eynon · Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 5:26 am Post subject:

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: Another point Washington, Jefferson...
...hardly Celtic names are they?

In the South, where many folks of Celtic heritage immigrated you will find family traditions to this day that are derived from these wars, for instance, to this day my family has a tradition to only plant white roses on our property.

This has been passed down for generations, by people who didn't even know why they had these traditions.

that's totally true, but the Revolution's greatest Champions were Northerns who considered themselves "Englishmen"........

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

thundertaker wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: Another point Washington, Jefferson...
...hardly Celtic names are they?

In the South, where many folks of Celtic heritage immigrated you will find family traditions to this day that are derived from these wars, for instance, to this day my family has a tradition to only plant white roses on our property.

This has been passed down for generations, by people who didn't even know why they had these traditions.

Presumably, that's out of support for the Jacobite cause?

I suppose so.

thundertaker · Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 10:41 pm Post subject:

cap'n queasy wrote: thundertaker wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: Another point Washington, Jefferson...
...hardly Celtic names are they?

In the South, where many folks of Celtic heritage immigrated you will find family traditions to this day that are derived from these wars, for instance, to this day my family has a tradition to only plant white roses on our property.

This has been passed down for generations, by people who didn't even know why they had these traditions.

Presumably, that's out of support for the Jacobite cause?

I suppose so.

The jacobites were a force for backwardness and arbitrary government. The Stuarts were told to get knotted because they wanted arbitarary monarchy, the Oranges and Hanovarians stood for limited gov't and liberalism.....

And the white rose is the hated symbol of yorkism. It's WRANG I telll yuopui//////////////