Political Crossfire Forums

[evil muppet]

as if we didn't already know that

http://www.hawaiireporter.com/story.aspx?9b2bc608-bf0b-413e-9e0c-e679f1b1f5c4

[lilwolf]

This by far one of the more accurate articles that I have seen in a good while now...The guy us dead on the money about how the numbers are used.

Good find :-D

[evil muppet]

this is where I found it. This is a good website for libertarian news. It is run by libertarians so you know it is good for you.

http://rationalreview.com/

It even has a section devoted to gun related news

http://www.rationalreview.com/2am/

[lilwolf]

evil muppet wrote: this is where I found it. This is a good website for libertarian news. It is run by libertarians so you know it is good for you.

http://rationalreview.com/

It even has a section devoted to gun related news

http://www.rationalreview.com/2am/


Outstanding... I am always looking for good sources of info and items that are acurately explained.

[Jefferson]

http://www.handguncontrolinc.org/hci_dues_2.htm

Looks like they also fabricate thier tax returns too.

[lilwolf]

Jefferson wrote: http://www.handguncontrolinc.org/hci_dues_2.htm

Looks like they also fabricate thier tax returns too.



That's just to cool and I love it....
That's for them

[Rankor and Pissing]

No comment from our favorite anti-gunners yet ... hrmph.

Obviously, these people didn't read: How to Lie with Statistics There's a few used copies available if they're under the budget crunch! :lol:

[britboy]

Undoubtably as with everything there will be a few people that have an agenda and don't mind lying to achieve it.

The title thread should have had the word 'some ' in front of it.

I'd say probably about the same number of anti-gunners and pro-gunners lie to try and further their cause.

Offensive text removed.

LNRW



* Though of course this hasn't happened ever.

[lilwolf]

britboy wrote: Undoubtably as with everything there will be a few people that have an agenda and don't mind lying to achieve it.

The title thread should have had the word 'some ' in front of it.

I'd say probably about the same number of anti-gunners and pro-gunners lie to try and further their cause.

There's no-way I would possibly leap to defend someone that has said something wrong just because I believe in the same concepts as her! That'd be like Lilwolf inventing a statistic, then other pro-gunners leaping to his defence when he's pulled up on it -=- simply inexcusable*.


* Though of course this hasn't happened ever.


I would honestly suggest you not start persona lattacks britboy. I will not tolerate your crap either...got it

[britboy]

lilwolf wrote: britboy wrote: Undoubtably as with everything there will be a few people that have an agenda and don't mind lying to achieve it.

The title thread should have had the word 'some ' in front of it.

I'd say probably about the same number of anti-gunners and pro-gunners lie to try and further their cause.

There's no-way I would possibly leap to defend someone that has said something wrong just because I believe in the same concepts as her! That'd be like Lilwolf inventing a statistic, then other pro-gunners leaping to his defence when he's pulled up on it -=- simply inexcusable*.


* Though of course this hasn't happened ever.


I would honestly suggest you not start persona lattacks britboy. I will not tolerate your crap either...got it

What? I said it never happened! Any ok sorry.

[lilwolf]

britboy wrote: lilwolf wrote: britboy wrote: Undoubtably as with everything there will be a few people that have an agenda and don't mind lying to achieve it.

The title thread should have had the word 'some ' in front of it.

I'd say probably about the same number of anti-gunners and pro-gunners lie to try and further their cause.

There's no-way I would possibly leap to defend someone that has said something wrong just because I believe in the same concepts as her! That'd be like Lilwolf inventing a statistic, then other pro-gunners leaping to his defence when he's pulled up on it -=- simply inexcusable*.


* Though of course this hasn't happened ever.


I would honestly suggest you not start persona lattacks britboy. I will not tolerate your crap either...got it

What? I said it never happened! Any ok sorry.

Thank you

[evil muppet]

No, I wouldn't put 'some' in the title. That would be dishonest. ALL anti-gunners fabricate and manipulate facts. The entire anti-gun stance is based on fictions.

[lilwolf]

There is also the knowledge that anti-gun people have and they do not want us as legal gun owners to know....If the UK is so good at their system then someone is lying to us about their so called accurate number


From the british home office: BTW the source is listed below all this.


This same British Home Office report attempts to put a happy face on the UK crime trend by proclaiming on page one that during the period of 2002-2003 crime has dropped, attempting to devalue the entire body of the report to the reader. Such hyperbole is also expressed in another British Home Office report entitled ''Crime in England and Wales 2002/2003,'' (9) which consists of two parts. The first section relies on Britain’s new Crime Survey, a governmental attempt to show crime reduction by selecting a small group of subjects to question. The Crime Survey findings contrast sharply with the second section of actual compiled police statistics that show sharp rises in nearly all crime categories.

Here are some crime trends collected from UK police crime data for the period of 1995 to 2003. (10)

Homicide rose 41%.
Attempted murder rose 29%.
Total Violent Crime rose 219%

Question: This brings up two concerns: first, it seems that one of the governmental branches, either the Home Office or the police, is in effect lying. Second, how can people trust the government when they can’t even come out with a consistent answer on crime rates or even what constitutes a crime?

Professor Malcolm: ''The government now seems to be insisting that the police actually record a higher level of the crimes reported to them, but don’t seem willing to explain what proportion or how it is being done. As a result, as crime rates go up dramatically in police statistics, especially for violent crime, the government keeps saying they are not really going up, it is just that the police are using a different method of recording crime. But for some crime, such as murder, the police could not easily have been under-reporting in the past, although they do track murders to pull them from the totals if the final judgment is anything less than a court finding of murder. At this point the government has used the ''new method of calculating crime'' excuse so repeatedly and without explanation that I am inclined not to trust their assurances that crime is going down or remaining steady. Murder, for instance, is at the highest level since statistics were kept.
Question: Why is the British Crime Survey is at odds with the International Crime Victimization Survey of 2002 and your own article at Reason.com (14), which indicate that the UK is indeed increasingly more crime-ridden in many categories than the U.S.?

Professor Malcolm: ''I think the international crime victimization study released in 2002 is more reliable and offers a comparison of how England and Wales are doing compared to other industrial countries. Sadly, England has many times the violent crime of most European countries. But their methods of fighting crime by disarming and prosecuting victims is so counter-productive that the results do not surprise me. Unfortunately it is in the government’s interest to demonstrate that its crime-fighting initiative is successful, which makes its assertions doubtful.''

The key point to remember is that murder is a statistic that is hard to fudge, and therefore a reliable indicator of crime trends. The police actually under-report murder rates, because if the court reduces the sentence, the police subtract that case from murder totals. Even so, murder has risen dramatically since the gun ban went into effect.

Referring back to the Founders’ quotes leading this section, pray tell me this: how are the people of the United Kingdom are going to force a redressing of grievances upon their government? They have surrendered their arms and their purse, and therefore have no protection against a government acting without restraint, nor do they have the means to show their government any spirit of resistance to flawed and deadly policy. Once again, the age-old lessons are being taught on yet another stage: absolute power corrupts absolutely; and if you surrender your personal responsibility to a government which promises to take care of you, they will only take care of themselves.


source: http://www.kc3.org/CCDW_Stats/what_you_dont_know.htm

1) Gun Laws Work, Loopholes Don’t, The Brady Campaign to Prevent Violence
http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/issues/?page=loop
Numerous references at this site relating gun control to reducing violence.

(2) Information Page on Firearms Violence, Violence Policy Center.
http://www.vpc.org/fvtopic.htm
Numerous articles relating gun control to reducing violence.

(3) Crime Victimisation in the Industrialised World: Key Findings of the 1989 and 1992 International Crime Surveys, van Dijk and Mayhew, The Hague: Ministry of Justice, Department of Crime Prevention, 1993.
Criminal Victimisation in Seventeen Industrialised Countries: Key-findings from the 2000 international Crime Victims Survey, Van Kesteren, Mayhew and Nieuwbeerta, The Hague: Ministry of Justice, Department of Crime Prevention, 2000. Both available at http://www.unicri.it/icvs/publications/index_pub.htm

(4) Firearms Commerce in the United States 2001/2002. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms.
http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/firearmscommerce/firearmscommerce.pdf



(5) International Comparisons of Criminal Justice Statistics 2001. Britain Home Office and Council of Europe, 10/23/2003. http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/hosb1203.pdf

(6) Ibid, page 10.

(7) Ibid, page 12.

(8) Ibid, page 13
(9) Crime in England and Wales 2002/2003. British Home Office, July 2003.
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/hosb703.pdf

(10) Ibid, page 53.

(11) Ibid, page 56.

(12) Ibid, page 58.

(13) ''Guns and Violence, The English Experience,'' Joyce Lee Malcolm, Harvard University Press, 2002, pp 62-63.

(14) ''Gun Control’s Twisted Outcome,'' Joyce Lee Malcolm, Reason Online, November 2002. http://reason.com/0211/fe.jm.gun.shtml

Sorry for the length of this article but I only put in the high point of the artice, there is a great deal more in the article that reveals several things.

[Ardent]

lilwolf wrote: There is also the knowledge that anti-gun people have and they do not want us as legal gun owners to know....If the UK is so good at their system then someone is lying to us about their so called accurate number


From the british home office: BTW the source is listed below all this.


This same British Home Office report attempts to put a happy face on the UK crime trend by proclaiming on page one that during the period of 2002-2003 crime has dropped, attempting to devalue the entire body of the report to the reader. Such hyperbole is also expressed in another British Home Office report entitled ''Crime in England and Wales 2002/2003,'' (9) which consists of two parts. The first section relies on Britain’s new Crime Survey, a governmental attempt to show crime reduction by selecting a small group of subjects to question. The Crime Survey findings contrast sharply with the second section of actual compiled police statistics that show sharp rises in nearly all crime categories.

Here are some crime trends collected from UK police crime data for the period of 1995 to 2003. (10)

Homicide rose 41%.
Attempted murder rose 29%.
Total Violent Crime rose 219%

Question: This brings up two concerns: first, it seems that one of the governmental branches, either the Home Office or the police, is in effect lying. Second, how can people trust the government when they can’t even come out with a consistent answer on crime rates or even what constitutes a crime?

Professor Malcolm: ''The government now seems to be insisting that the police actually record a higher level of the crimes reported to them, but don’t seem willing to explain what proportion or how it is being done. As a result, as crime rates go up dramatically in police statistics, especially for violent crime, the government keeps saying they are not really going up, it is just that the police are using a different method of recording crime. But for some crime, such as murder, the police could not easily have been under-reporting in the past, although they do track murders to pull them from the totals if the final judgment is anything less than a court finding of murder. At this point the government has used the ''new method of calculating crime'' excuse so repeatedly and without explanation that I am inclined not to trust their assurances that crime is going down or remaining steady. Murder, for instance, is at the highest level since statistics were kept.
Question: Why is the British Crime Survey is at odds with the International Crime Victimization Survey of 2002 and your own article at Reason.com (14), which indicate that the UK is indeed increasingly more crime-ridden in many categories than the U.S.?

Professor Malcolm: ''I think the international crime victimization study released in 2002 is more reliable and offers a comparison of how England and Wales are doing compared to other industrial countries. Sadly, England has many times the violent crime of most European countries. But their methods of fighting crime by disarming and prosecuting victims is so counter-productive that the results do not surprise me. Unfortunately it is in the government’s interest to demonstrate that its crime-fighting initiative is successful, which makes its assertions doubtful.''

The key point to remember is that murder is a statistic that is hard to fudge, and therefore a reliable indicator of crime trends. The police actually under-report murder rates, because if the court reduces the sentence, the police subtract that case from murder totals. Even so, murder has risen dramatically since the gun ban went into effect.

Referring back to the Founders’ quotes leading this section, pray tell me this: how are the people of the United Kingdom are going to force a redressing of grievances upon their government? They have surrendered their arms and their purse, and therefore have no protection against a government acting without restraint, nor do they have the means to show their government any spirit of resistance to flawed and deadly policy. Once again, the age-old lessons are being taught on yet another stage: absolute power corrupts absolutely; and if you surrender your personal responsibility to a government which promises to take care of you, they will only take care of themselves.


source: http://www.kc3.org/CCDW_Stats/what_you_dont_know.htm

1) Gun Laws Work, Loopholes Don’t, The Brady Campaign to Prevent Violence
http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/issues/?page=loop
Numerous references at this site relating gun control to reducing violence.

(2) Information Page on Firearms Violence, Violence Policy Center.
http://www.vpc.org/fvtopic.htm
Numerous articles relating gun control to reducing violence.

(3) Crime Victimisation in the Industrialised World: Key Findings of the 1989 and 1992 International Crime Surveys, van Dijk and Mayhew, The Hague: Ministry of Justice, Department of Crime Prevention, 1993.
Criminal Victimisation in Seventeen Industrialised Countries: Key-findings from the 2000 international Crime Victims Survey, Van Kesteren, Mayhew and Nieuwbeerta, The Hague: Ministry of Justice, Department of Crime Prevention, 2000. Both available at http://www.unicri.it/icvs/publications/index_pub.htm

(4) Firearms Commerce in the United States 2001/2002. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms.
http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/firearmscommerce/firearmscommerce.pdf



(5) International Comparisons of Criminal Justice Statistics 2001. Britain Home Office and Council of Europe, 10/23/2003. http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/hosb1203.pdf

(6) Ibid, page 10.

(7) Ibid, page 12.

(8) Ibid, page 13
(9) Crime in England and Wales 2002/2003. British Home Office, July 2003.
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/hosb703.pdf

(10) Ibid, page 53.

(11) Ibid, page 56.

(12) Ibid, page 58.

(13) ''Guns and Violence, The English Experience,'' Joyce Lee Malcolm, Harvard University Press, 2002, pp 62-63.

(14) ''Gun Control’s Twisted Outcome,'' Joyce Lee Malcolm, Reason Online, November 2002. http://reason.com/0211/fe.jm.gun.shtml

Sorry for the length of this article but I only put in the high point of the artice, there is a great deal more in the article that reveals several things.

You must be looking at different figures because
according to the British Crime Survey, Police
Recorded Crime and Hospital Admissions,
crime in the UK has fallen.

The BCS is not a small survey it interviews
50,000 people face to face, which is a higher
percentage of population than the American
NCVS and the UN Survey which interviews
between 1000 and 2000 per country by phone.

Hospital figures showing admissions for violent
offences back up the BCS figure, whilst half of
violent crime recorded by the police results in
no injury. Homocide figures have had their first
sustained fall since the 1960's and now stand at
765 for England and Wales (including those who
died in the London Bomb Attacks), and murder
is not undereported, courts very rarely throw
out a murder charge with out good reason.

There were 46 gun crime deaths last year,
down 40% on the year before.

The Home Office is also no longer responcible for
compiling statistics this has now been given to
the independent National Audit Office.

[lilwolf]

Understood ...these were I believe from 2003 era and I only wanted to show that quite often on both sides (to be fair) pad or under pad the numbers, so just how accurate are they is a nagging question that evryone seems to have...look at some of the mud slinging that has happened and that is why I wonder as well.

[britboy]

evil muppet wrote: No, I wouldn't put 'some' in the title. That would be dishonest. ALL anti-gunners fabricate and manipulate facts. The entire anti-gun stance is based on fictions.

Evil muppet - I am an anti-gunner. I have written all my opinions on this forum. Thats 250 odd posts.

Please Find anywhere where I have fabricated and manipulated facts. Out of any of my posts, anywhere.

Then either say 'I was wrong, sorry' , or 'Here is a quote which was fabricated from you'.

If you're not man enough to do either of the above .. don't reply at all and we'll all know what to think of this last post of yours.

[Lucky Luke]

evil muppet wrote: as if we didn't already know that

http://www.hawaiireporter.com/story.aspx?9b2bc608-bf0b-413e-9e0c-e679f1b1f5c4

This is not a link showing pro gun control laws people fabricating studies to support their philosophy, this is an anti gun control laws article telling you that this claim is true Evil Muppet.

I look forward to read your findings on such studies and not other people findings without a shred of evidence to back up their claims.

:-D
:-D

[evil muppet]

britboy wrote: evil muppet wrote: No, I wouldn't put 'some' in the title. That would be dishonest. ALL anti-gunners fabricate and manipulate facts. The entire anti-gun stance is based on fictions.

Evil muppet - I am an anti-gunner. I have written all my opinions on this forum. Thats 250 odd posts.

Please Find anywhere where I have fabricated and manipulated facts. Out of any of my posts, anywhere.

Then either say 'I was wrong, sorry' , or 'Here is a quote which was fabricated from you'.

If you're not man enough to do either of the above .. don't reply at all and we'll all know what to think of this last post of yours.

then there are the incredibly naive who believe everything they have been spoon fed. I apologize for nothing.

[evil muppet]

Lucky Luke wrote: evil muppet wrote: as if we didn't already know that

http://www.hawaiireporter.com/story.aspx?9b2bc608-bf0b-413e-9e0c-e679f1b1f5c4

This is not a link showing pro gun control laws people fabricating studies to support their philosophy, this is an anti gun control laws article telling you that this claim is true Evil Muppet.

I look forward to read your findings on such studies and not other people findings without a shred of evidence to back up their claims.

:-D
:-D

what the hell are you talking about?

[Mikate8]

Anti-gunners do fabricate studies, not all, but theyre out there, and we know it, not everybody I guess, just those who know. See, I didn't say everybody lied or everybody knew that people lie, I found the middle, yay for me.

Anti-gunners also lie about their feelings, yes, their feelings and thoughts

Because whenever I ask a British person or whoever is in a country that they arent allowed to have guns, I ask them, "If the military or some other armed group took control of your country and enslaved you all, would you want your guns back?" You know what they tell me?

Thiiiiiissssssss.... "Rubbish, American action movie rubbish" "That won't happen because i'm in my safety bubble"

If Nazis were going to invade England or France again, would you want guns, lots and lots of guns like in America? Would you? Don't skirt the question, i've been frustrated enough. Remember, IF, because the Germans were planning to invade England, if they did would you want lots of guns?