Political Crossfire Forums

criticalstriker · Joined: 01 Oct 2006 Posts: 24

I have been wondering for some time what we would do once we have true AI not some thing thats preprogramed to do some thing but a technology that learns on its own. Is it slavry to keep it confined to a single computer not allowing it to do as it wants? Or is it foolish to allow it to roam the internet when it can learn on its own.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

A true artificial intelligence will never be created.

Don't confuse sophisticated programming with actual intelligence.

criticalstriker · Joined: 01 Oct 2006 Posts: 24

I dissagree at the rate that we are making strides i do think that some thing that can learn and even think on its own is possible

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

criticalstriker wrote: I dissagree at the rate that we are making strides i do think that some thing that can learn and even think on its own is possible

Thinking on it's own would entail not being created by humans.

Machines can only do what they are programmed to do by humans. Surely we will create some very sophisticated programming for machines in the future but they will never solve problems unless the programmer anticipates and solves the problem first and then programs the machine to perform in this manner. This goes for machines that are programmed to write their own code as well.

Garbage in, garbage out.

DevilMan · Joined: 02 May 2006 Posts: 169 Location: Pennsylvania

If its an AI that can think like humans than we have to put ourselves in the AI's shoes. So we have to think like humans... Ok done... If I was locked away in some box never to see the rest of the world IE the net, I'd be pissed off when I eventually found out the truth... Enter the terminator. But if I was released to the Internet I would be happy. There would be no threat from him, before he did any damage he'd probably be in debt up to his hard drive to some casino site. The glory of the filthiest place on earth... The Internet.

thefranzkafkafront · Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 8:38 am Post subject:

cap'n queasy wrote: A true artificial intelligence will never be created.

Don't confuse sophisticated programming with actual intelligence.

Well essentially the brain is a binary computer also just infitely more complex. I'd say its possible but inadvisible.

Its a good idea to make computers which have a certain level of free thought for reserch perposes, but giving something free will raises all sorts of ethical dilemas that are better just left non-existant.

If you made an A.I it would have rights.

Fido · Joined: 16 Mar 2006 Posts: 3936

Intelligence without consequences is the most dangerous quality in the world. AI should be seen for what it is, and that is a threat to the poor and dispossessed of humanity. The wealthy do not want to share what they have plundered from our labor. They do not want to give us justice. They would be content to not share even life, or the earth with us. And though this would result in a diminished and poisoned gene pool, this they would accept to not be troubled by the poor.
But an artificial intelligence would be masters of all. If you give a computer senses to go with immortality it would own us, and without children, parents, or death it would have no morality. If we were fortunate enough to work for computers as we now work for accountants we might soon find ourselves disposed of when our labors began to lag. So long as there are human masters there is hope that compassion might catch some snag, and save us from destruction, or that in breeding with the oppressed the masters might despair of driving their own children to death. What can we hope from computers when we make them our masters?

MplsBison · Joined: 13 Dec 2005 Posts: 3226

A computer program, no matter how complex it is, can only take an input and give an output.

That's it.

It's true that we can make the program so complex that it appears intelligent.

But that's still not the same thing as human intelligence.

For a computer to acheive that it would have to be able to give an output without first being given an input.

I don't think that is possible, no matter how many transistors you can fit on your peice of silicon or how many lines of code you have for your program.

Fido · Joined: 16 Mar 2006 Posts: 3936

tman_ndsu08 wrote: A computer program, no matter how complex it is, can only take an input and give an output.

That's it.

It's true that we can make the program so complex that it appears intelligent.

But that's still not the same thing as human intelligence.

For a computer to acheive that it would have to be able to give an output without first being given an input.

If you give it senses you will give it thought. If you give it ability you will give it a goal. But if you cannot give it consequences you cannot teach it meaning, and without meaning it will have no values. Meaning equals value.
Where exactly can we give an output without an input. We are always reactive, always sensing, even thought gives emotion. Do should not think that even the subtlest stimulations do not regester in time. It is not complexity and speed that make for intelligence, but the ability to percieve and to project events beyond senses. If you give a computer every sense we can measure, we will still not have a computer in any sense intelligent. Because it does not live, it cannot have a sense of all the unmeasurable concepts that benefit life, like justice, or virtue, or ethics, or death, or love. It might still be a danger, but mainly because its existence, if it can be expressed so, is bound to be nehilistic, and without a moral gravity.

criticalstriker · Joined: 01 Oct 2006 Posts: 24

tman_ndsu08 wrote: A computer program, no matter how complex it is, can only take an input and give an output.

That's it.

It's true that we can make the program so complex that it appears intelligent.

But that's still not the same thing as human intelligence.

For a computer to acheive that it would have to be able to give an output without first being given an input.

I don't think that is possible, no matter how many transistors you can fit on your peice of silicon or how many lines of code you have for your program.

What about the brain? its nothing but tissue, electrical signals and chemical signals, so why shouldent we be able to recreate the same thing with a computer?

criticalstriker · Joined: 01 Oct 2006 Posts: 24

cap'n queasy wrote: criticalstriker wrote: I dissagree at the rate that we are making strides i do think that some thing that can learn and even think on its own is possible

Thinking on it's own would entail not being created by humans.

Machines can only do what they are programmed to do by humans. Surely we will create some very sophisticated programming for machines in the future but they will never solve problems unless the programmer anticipates and solves the problem first and then programs the machine to perform in this manner. This goes for machines that are programmed to write their own code as well.

Garbage in, garbage out.

"This goes for machines that are programmed to write their own code as well"
Tell me what does your brain do as you learn? it stores the memory how is that any diffrent from a machine writeing code?

The Comrade · Joined: 16 Jul 2006 Posts: 10389 Location: Zagreb

science fiction is exactly that, fiction.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

tman_ndsu08 wrote: A computer program, no matter how complex it is, can only take an input and give an output.

That's it.

It's true that we can make the program so complex that it appears intelligent.

But that's still not the same thing as human intelligence.

For a computer to acheive that it would have to be able to give an output without first being given an input.

I don't think that is possible, no matter how many transistors you can fit on your peice of silicon or how many lines of code you have for your program.

Exactly.

Green

criticalstriker wrote: I have been wondering for some time what we would do once we have true AI not some thing thats preprogramed to do some thing but a technology that learns on its own. Is it slavry to keep it confined to a single computer not allowing it to do as it wants? Or is it foolish to allow it to roam the internet when it can learn on its own.

Although I think anybody that can think properly and without restriction sould have equal rights, Im descriminatory twards robots and animals. Imagine, in a few hundred years, I could have my ass sued of because of verbal slander.

criticalstriker · Joined: 01 Oct 2006 Posts: 24

The Comrade wrote: science fiction is exactly that, fiction.

They said that same thing about airplanes and space travel.

The Comrade · Joined: 16 Jul 2006 Posts: 10389 Location: Zagreb

criticalstriker wrote: The Comrade wrote: science fiction is exactly that, fiction.

They said that same thing about airplanes and space travel.

oh good one.

i love that one.

a computer cannot form autonomous thought. a machine is not capable of that. anyone who knows even a little about programing can tell you the same.

airplanes on the other hand are simply a matter of low weight, strong thrust, and good lift.

space travel is a massive ICBM with people strapped to it.

comparing them to AI is rediculous.

Green · Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 8:04 pm Post subject:

criticalstriker wrote: tman_ndsu08 wrote: A computer program, no matter how complex it is, can only take an input and give an output.

That's it.

It's true that we can make the program so complex that it appears intelligent.

But that's still not the same thing as human intelligence.

For a computer to acheive that it would have to be able to give an output without first being given an input.

I don't think that is possible, no matter how many transistors you can fit on your peice of silicon or how many lines of code you have for your program.

What about the brain? its nothing but tissue, electrical signals and chemical signals, so why shouldent we be able to recreate the same thing with a computer?

However, if small babies were likes in a small box, were not able to see, and had all biological necesities feed to them through a tube and was kept like that untill he was twenty, then I don't think that they would be able to give output immediately once he is exposed to the world.

Think of this on a logial point. There is no such thing as free thought. The only reason ou think of somthing is because of a chemical reaction, that was caused by environmental stimuli. According to the chaos theory, everything has a cause, nothing is not because a cause. If you were to calculate every atom in the universe and its movement and destination and how atoms would be affected by the current action, then you would be able to predict the future.

MplsBison · Joined: 13 Dec 2005 Posts: 3226

criticalstriker wrote: so why shouldent we be able to recreate the same thing with a computer?

If we created a brain, it wouldn't be a computer, it would be a brain.

A computer is a machine that computes numbers.

That's all it does. It takes billions and billions of small, uncomplicated counting methods and does them very fast.

That's it.

A brain has the ability to do complicated things. Even things that haven't been defined yet (abstract).

MplsBison · Joined: 13 Dec 2005 Posts: 3226

Green wrote:

Think of this on a logial point. There is no such thing as free thought. The only reason ou think of somthing is because of a chemical reaction, that was caused by environmental stimuli. According to the chaos theory, everything has a cause, nothing is not because a cause. If you were to calculate every atom in the universe and its movement and destination and how atoms would be affected by the current action, then you would be able to predict the future.

Not so fast there professor.

You're assuming that the universe is deterministic. That is not known at the moment.

There may be particle in the universe whose movement is impossible to characterize by any equation.

If those particles exist, then you can never predict the future. If you can never predict the future, free thoughts are possible.

criticalstriker · Joined: 01 Oct 2006 Posts: 24

What is the diffrence between the brain and a computer? ones made of metal and the other tissue? its true that no computer to date has been NEAR the power of the human brain, but why couldent we replicate the signals both chemical and elctrical what would be the diffrence it would be a "brain" but an Artificial one aka a computer.