Political Crossfire Forums

[micfranklin]

Jefferson wrote: Mass killings are not unique to the USA and gun ownership countries. In Japan the loonies kill kids with swords. The loonnies will kill kids with the weapon at hand? Why? Gun control does not cure mental illness.

Not much that I know of can....

[lilwolf]

micfranklin wrote: Jefferson wrote: Mass killings are not unique to the USA and gun ownership countries. In Japan the loonies kill kids with swords. The loonnies will kill kids with the weapon at hand? Why? Gun control does not cure mental illness.

Not much that I know of can....


I agree as well on that issue.

[jimmyz]

All teachers and all staff should have a mandate to carry a sidearm and be certified expert in its handling in all schools throughout the US.And armed security should be mandated at all school entrances.

If I had "school choice" I would choose the schools with closed campuses and armed security every trip of the train.

Sadly we live in a world where one school shooting sets off the "kooks" who fantasize about this "target rich,unsecured" environment(schools).

[Wolverine]

micfranklin wrote: Wolverine wrote: Numb wrote: A psycotic milkman, huh? I wonder what could have drove a milkman to kill several innocent people? Maybe he was CRAZY :shock:
It was the gun, you must realize this.

The gun must be stopped, for it emits evil.
Under a black light the number 666 is visible in the place of the serial number.

Numb wrote: Personally I'm more concerned with why did he do it then what he did it with.
Thats the scary part, its the mental illness that drives insane people to do insane things, not the weapon.

[RooK]

britboy, look at it this way: In the 40s, 50s and 60s this stuff rarely happened (if it did at all) and guns were owned by a larger percentage of Americans. What has happened between then and now that could cause this? There are fewer guns per capita, more gun laws/restrictions, better security. Surely the guns aren't the main factor.

A few things come to mind, but none involve guns or ownership: Families are now more disconnected, the nucleus family has reached an end. Parents don't give a crap for their kids in alarming numbers these days. Violence is more prevelant than ever in movies, games, music, news, and society. These mass shootings are a recent phenomna, starting in rare incidents once or twice a decade in the 70s, 80s, and suddenly spreading like wildfire in the 90s. It's a far deeper problem than we can assume, and it all comes back to societal expectations and the proliferation of unaccountable authoritarian figures and impunity.

[mattman42]

What can I say? Schools are easy targets. No one in them will be armed (legally of course) and the police wont show up for probably 10 minutes (and that's just to arrive, not to actually do something), giving you plenty of time to do as much damage as possible then take yourself out. Let's just say that shooting up a school seems a lot more practical than shooting into a random crowd of people, some of which might be able to shoot back.

It's a sad situation when people are killed. But to tell us who choose to own firearms that we are somehow contributing to this, or worse, to say we're outright causing it to happen is ignorant and stupid, among so many other colorful adjectives I can't type here. We as gun owners support the RKBA because we honestly feel that it is what is best for our society as a whole. Will there be unlawful shootings? Absolutely, but with and without legal gun ownership. However, the Second Amendment as we all know isn't based upon crime rates in any way, shape or form. It is to prevent tyranny and let me tell you, losing 20 or 30 thousand people to shootings per year (which would occur with or without legal gun ownership) is a small price to pay in order to ensure that millions aren't exterminated many years down the road.

EDIT - On another note, KeepAndBearArms.com shows more than a dozen self-defense shootings in the last week. Those are just the ones that make the news. That doesn't include the other estimated 90% of overall uses of a gun in defense where the weapon is never fired. The pros of gun ownership far outweigh the cons.

[Blinky]

perdidochas wrote: britboy wrote: Yup, another day, another load more kids executed in a school.

Guess which country???

Now kids, are we learning anything, do we spot any connection at all? Nope, you don't do you! There is no problem whatsoever.
:roll:

Don't tell me -- if only those Amish girls did the proper thing and carried round a desert eagle each, compulsorarily, non of this would happen yea?

:roll: It's just hopeless .. and heartbreaking what you're prepared to let happen to your children ... and the fact you absolutely doggedly refuse to see the blimin' obvious problem here. Stubborn. Ignorant. Causing your children to die. But we both know you don't really care.

Which kids would you be prepared to sacrifice next so you can keep your gun, to protect you and -- um -- your kids? Who would you choose next?

Go on, back to the norm, he would have killed them with a staple gun if he couldn't get hold of a gun. Yadda yadda,

Go on, answer the normal spiel back to me then we'll all try and forget about it until next time .. I wonder which country will be hit next time ..


Maybe Yemen, the Netherlands, Sweden, Germany, the former Yugoslavia, Russia (if you count Muslim terrorists taking over a school), Canada or Argentina. All have had school shootings in the last ten years or so. (Germany had several. ) Schools are target rich environments for those meaning to do harm.


www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777958.html

perdidochas, I read your link. Thankyou. It illustrates beautifully what britboy was getting at. It informs me that the USA suffered 31 school shootings in the time frame covered, whereas THE REST OF THE WORLD suffered 10.
Like britboy said: I wonder which country it will be next time? The odds are heavily in favour of it being yours, perdidochas.

[lilwolf]

Blinky wrote: perdidochas wrote: britboy wrote: Yup, another day, another load more kids executed in a school.

Guess which country???

Now kids, are we learning anything, do we spot any connection at all? Nope, you don't do you! There is no problem whatsoever.
:roll:

Don't tell me -- if only those Amish girls did the proper thing and carried round a desert eagle each, compulsorarily, non of this would happen yea?

:roll: It's just hopeless .. and heartbreaking what you're prepared to let happen to your children ... and the fact you absolutely doggedly refuse to see the blimin' obvious problem here. Stubborn. Ignorant. Causing your children to die. But we both know you don't really care.

Which kids would you be prepared to sacrifice next so you can keep your gun, to protect you and -- um -- your kids? Who would you choose next?

Go on, back to the norm, he would have killed them with a staple gun if he couldn't get hold of a gun. Yadda yadda,

Go on, answer the normal spiel back to me then we'll all try and forget about it until next time .. I wonder which country will be hit next time ..


Maybe Yemen, the Netherlands, Sweden, Germany, the former Yugoslavia, Russia (if you count Muslim terrorists taking over a school), Canada or Argentina. All have had school shootings in the last ten years or so. (Germany had several. ) Schools are target rich environments for those meaning to do harm.


www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777958.html

perdidochas, I read your link. Thankyou. It illustrates beautifully what britboy was getting at. It informs me that the USA suffered 31 school shootings in the time frame covered, whereas THE REST OF THE WORLD suffered 10.
Like britboy said: I wonder which country it will be next time? The odds are heavily in favour of it being yours, perdidochas.


But we'll weather another storm just like we alwyas do and come out okay

[micfranklin]

jimmyz wrote: All teachers and all staff should have a mandate to carry a sidearm and be certified expert in its handling in all schools throughout the US.And armed security should be mandated at all school entrances.

If I had "school choice" I would choose the schools with closed campuses and armed security every trip of the train.

Sadly we live in a world where one school shooting sets off the "kooks" who fantasize about this "target rich,unsecured" environment(schools).

I'm gonna have to disagree with you on that, simply because even one man can still kill armed security guards. Ever heard of sniper rifles?

[mattman42]

Requiring all teachers to be armed and well-trained is not practical as it would be extremely expensive. In addition, carrying a firearm is not something that should be forced on anyone against their will. If they choose to carry, they should be able to. If it's not for them, fine.

[Blinky]

lilwolf wrote: Blinky wrote: perdidochas wrote: britboy wrote: Yup, another day, another load more kids executed in a school.

Guess which country???

Now kids, are we learning anything, do we spot any connection at all? Nope, you don't do you! There is no problem whatsoever.
:roll:

Don't tell me -- if only those Amish girls did the proper thing and carried round a desert eagle each, compulsorarily, non of this would happen yea?

:roll: It's just hopeless .. and heartbreaking what you're prepared to let happen to your children ... and the fact you absolutely doggedly refuse to see the blimin' obvious problem here. Stubborn. Ignorant. Causing your children to die. But we both know you don't really care.

Which kids would you be prepared to sacrifice next so you can keep your gun, to protect you and -- um -- your kids? Who would you choose next?

Go on, back to the norm, he would have killed them with a staple gun if he couldn't get hold of a gun. Yadda yadda,

Go on, answer the normal spiel back to me then we'll all try and forget about it until next time .. I wonder which country will be hit next time ..


Maybe Yemen, the Netherlands, Sweden, Germany, the former Yugoslavia, Russia (if you count Muslim terrorists taking over a school), Canada or Argentina. All have had school shootings in the last ten years or so. (Germany had several. ) Schools are target rich environments for those meaning to do harm.


www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777958.html

perdidochas, I read your link. Thankyou. It illustrates beautifully what britboy was getting at. It informs me that the USA suffered 31 school shootings in the time frame covered, whereas THE REST OF THE WORLD suffered 10.
Like britboy said: I wonder which country it will be next time? The odds are heavily in favour of it being yours, perdidochas.


But we'll weather another storm just like we alwyas do and come out okay

If more dead kids = okay, then you're spot on. I just wonder how many dead kids it will take before you change your mind.

[Lucky Luke]

Blinky wrote:

perdidochas, I read your link. Thankyou. It illustrates beautifully what britboy was getting at. It informs me that the USA suffered 31 school shootings in the time frame covered, whereas THE REST OF THE WORLD suffered 10.
Like britboy said: I wonder which country it will be next time? The odds are heavily in favour of it being yours, perdidochas.

If it is not the guns, one will have to conclude that Americans are born evil murderers or that they are mentally disturbed. I choose the guns, I don't believe American people are that different from the rest of us.

:-D
:-D

[Lucky Luke]

lilwolf wrote: Blinky wrote: perdidochas wrote: britboy wrote: Yup, another day, another load more kids executed in a school.

Guess which country???

Now kids, are we learning anything, do we spot any connection at all? Nope, you don't do you! There is no problem whatsoever.
:roll:

Don't tell me -- if only those Amish girls did the proper thing and carried round a desert eagle each, compulsorarily, non of this would happen yea?

:roll: It's just hopeless .. and heartbreaking what you're prepared to let happen to your children ... and the fact you absolutely doggedly refuse to see the blimin' obvious problem here. Stubborn. Ignorant. Causing your children to die. But we both know you don't really care.

Which kids would you be prepared to sacrifice next so you can keep your gun, to protect you and -- um -- your kids? Who would you choose next?

Go on, back to the norm, he would have killed them with a staple gun if he couldn't get hold of a gun. Yadda yadda,

Go on, answer the normal spiel back to me then we'll all try and forget about it until next time .. I wonder which country will be hit next time ..


Maybe Yemen, the Netherlands, Sweden, Germany, the former Yugoslavia, Russia (if you count Muslim terrorists taking over a school), Canada or Argentina. All have had school shootings in the last ten years or so. (Germany had several. ) Schools are target rich environments for those meaning to do harm.


www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777958.html

perdidochas, I read your link. Thankyou. It illustrates beautifully what britboy was getting at. It informs me that the USA suffered 31 school shootings in the time frame covered, whereas THE REST OF THE WORLD suffered 10.
Like britboy said: I wonder which country it will be next time? The odds are heavily in favour of it being yours, perdidochas.


But we'll weather another storm just like we alwyas do and come out okay

Who came out okay Lilwolf?

:-D
:-D

[lilwolf]

Lucky Luke wrote: lilwolf wrote: Blinky wrote: perdidochas wrote: britboy wrote: Yup, another day, another load more kids executed in a school.

Guess which country???

Now kids, are we learning anything, do we spot any connection at all? Nope, you don't do you! There is no problem whatsoever.
:roll:

Don't tell me -- if only those Amish girls did the proper thing and carried round a desert eagle each, compulsorarily, non of this would happen yea?

:roll: It's just hopeless .. and heartbreaking what you're prepared to let happen to your children ... and the fact you absolutely doggedly refuse to see the blimin' obvious problem here. Stubborn. Ignorant. Causing your children to die. But we both know you don't really care.

Which kids would you be prepared to sacrifice next so you can keep your gun, to protect you and -- um -- your kids? Who would you choose next?

Go on, back to the norm, he would have killed them with a staple gun if he couldn't get hold of a gun. Yadda yadda,

Go on, answer the normal spiel back to me then we'll all try and forget about it until next time .. I wonder which country will be hit next time ..


Maybe Yemen, the Netherlands, Sweden, Germany, the former Yugoslavia, Russia (if you count Muslim terrorists taking over a school), Canada or Argentina. All have had school shootings in the last ten years or so. (Germany had several. ) Schools are target rich environments for those meaning to do harm.


www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777958.html

perdidochas, I read your link. Thankyou. It illustrates beautifully what britboy was getting at. It informs me that the USA suffered 31 school shootings in the time frame covered, whereas THE REST OF THE WORLD suffered 10.
Like britboy said: I wonder which country it will be next time? The odds are heavily in favour of it being yours, perdidochas.


But we'll weather another storm just like we alwyas do and come out okay

Who came out okay Lilwolf?

:-D
:-D

I really do not have much to say...I made my statement... The guns stay in the hands of law abiding people....that is our right and the Voters are still adding laws and RTC to protect that right..Have a nice day

[perdidochas]

Blinky wrote: perdidochas wrote: britboy wrote: Yup, another day, another load more kids executed in a school.

Guess which country???

Now kids, are we learning anything, do we spot any connection at all? Nope, you don't do you! There is no problem whatsoever.
:roll:

Don't tell me -- if only those Amish girls did the proper thing and carried round a desert eagle each, compulsorarily, non of this would happen yea?

:roll: It's just hopeless .. and heartbreaking what you're prepared to let happen to your children ... and the fact you absolutely doggedly refuse to see the blimin' obvious problem here. Stubborn. Ignorant. Causing your children to die. But we both know you don't really care.

Which kids would you be prepared to sacrifice next so you can keep your gun, to protect you and -- um -- your kids? Who would you choose next?

Go on, back to the norm, he would have killed them with a staple gun if he couldn't get hold of a gun. Yadda yadda,

Go on, answer the normal spiel back to me then we'll all try and forget about it until next time .. I wonder which country will be hit next time ..


Maybe Yemen, the Netherlands, Sweden, Germany, the former Yugoslavia, Russia (if you count Muslim terrorists taking over a school), Canada or Argentina. All have had school shootings in the last ten years or so. (Germany had several. ) Schools are target rich environments for those meaning to do harm.


www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777958.html

perdidochas, I read your link. Thankyou. It illustrates beautifully what britboy was getting at. It informs me that the USA suffered 31 school shootings in the time frame covered, whereas THE REST OF THE WORLD suffered 10.
Like britboy said: I wonder which country it will be next time? The odds are heavily in favour of it being yours, perdidochas.

Well, if the Russian incident (where 322 people were killed) is counted, I think the number of killings in the rest of the world probably is greater than the American ones. However, I think Germany is probably the main counter example. Germany has very strict gun control, yet it had 20 deaths, in comparison to 54 American deaths (killer's deaths not counted in either one). Germany has a population of about 83 million. We have a population of about 300 million. Despite their gun control they had a higher death rate in schools. If adjusted for the German school age population, it's even worse (as Germany's school age population per capita is lower than America's).

[RooK]

Lucky Luke wrote: If it is not the guns, one will have to conclude that Americans are born evil murderers or that they are mentally disturbed. I choose the guns, I don't believe American people are that different from the rest of us.

It's not the guns. Japan has a higher suicide rate than the US and they cannot own guns. Perhaps different cultures are (fathom this)... different. I take it that guns are also responsible for the IEDs and kidnappings in Iraq. I mean Iraqis are not all that different besides religion, values, and social customs. :roll:

Remember the old speech about type A and type B personalities? The US is made of immigrants, mostly those of the type that are more outgoing and thrill seekers, as well as aggressive in their attitudes. Ever considered that Americans are somewhat more violent, but also these are isolated and rare incidents yet get a lot of publicity. Lay off the crack pipe will you?

[micfranklin]

Quote: Well, if the Russian incident (where 322 people were killed) is counted, I think the number of killings in the rest of the world probably is greater than the American ones. However, I think Germany is probably the main counter example. Germany has very strict gun control, yet it had 20 deaths, in comparison to 54 American deaths (killer's deaths not counted in either one). Germany has a population of about 83 million. We have a population of about 300 million. Despite their gun control they had a higher death rate in schools. If adjusted for the German school age population, it's even worse (as Germany's school age population per capita is lower than America's).

So, even if the US has had more school shootings in the last ten years, other countries worldwide have had much higher body counts, not that that's any better.

[ikari]

I'll disagree when you say that Americans may be inherently more violent, Rook. The majority of Americans are not running into schools shooting kids. It's been a handful of nutjobs, everyone has nut jobs and you can't begin to erode rights because there are some nutjobs out there (not saying that was your message, the last sentence is just a statement of fact).

[perdidochas]

RooK wrote: Lucky Luke wrote: If it is not the guns, one will have to conclude that Americans are born evil murderers or that they are mentally disturbed. I choose the guns, I don't believe American people are that different from the rest of us.

It's not the guns. Japan has a higher suicide rate than the US and they cannot own guns. Perhaps different cultures are (fathom this)... different.

True. If you take America's homicide and suicide rate, and add it together, it's still lower than Japan's homicide and suicide rate added together. I guess living in a gun free society is stressful.......



RooK wrote: I take it that guns are also responsible for the IEDs and kidnappings in Iraq. I mean Iraqis are not all that different besides religion, values, and social customs. :roll:

Remember the old speech about type A and type B personalities? The US is made of immigrants, mostly those of the type that are more outgoing and thrill seekers, as well as aggressive in their attitudes. Ever considered that Americans are somewhat more violent, but also these are isolated and rare incidents yet get a lot of publicity. Lay off the crack pipe will you?

That's my opinion as well. The American population comes from the risk takers, criminals, pioneers, religious fanatics, etc. from the Old World--the tamer people stayed in Europe or Asia. We do have a different character than other countries.

[leftneckredwing]

RooK wrote: Lucky Luke wrote: If it is not the guns, one will have to conclude that Americans are born evil murderers or that they are mentally disturbed. I choose the guns, I don't believe American people are that different from the rest of us.

It's not the guns. Japan has a higher suicide rate than the US and they cannot own guns. Perhaps different cultures are (fathom this)... different. I take it that guns are also responsible for the IEDs and kidnappings in Iraq. I mean Iraqis are not all that different besides religion, values, and social customs. :roll:

Remember the old speech about type A and type B personalities? The US is made of immigrants, mostly those of the type that are more outgoing and thrill seekers, as well as aggressive in their attitudes. Ever considered that Americans are somewhat more violent, but also these are isolated and rare incidents yet get a lot of publicity. Lay off the crack pipe will you?

I think it deserves to be mentioned that a lot of Americans came here to be the King of their own castle. Something that is not possible when an entire population has been persuaded that they must have a nanny to wipe their butt.