Political Crossfire Forums

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 22954

perdidochas wrote: John wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: 2) If Mary had other sons besides Jesus, why did Jesus commend her to the care of John, who was definitely not related by blood? Makes no sense.

Because his other brothers ands sisters were not believers at the time.

Quote: A few things: 1) In the Septuagint (Greek translation of the Hebrew OT), adelphos is used for things other than brother . It is also used to denote nephew (to describe the relationship between Abraham and Lot). So much for the precision argument.....

It uses the word adelphos because the term used for nephew in the LXX is "son of my brother".

:lol:

So much for that lame argument.

I don't understand the need to believe that Jesus didn't have half brothers and sisters.

It's inconceivable to me that after bearing the Son of God in her womb for 9 months, that Mary would have any more children.

Why? Jesus was 100% normal human being (physically speaking). It wasn't like He had magic blood or anything.

MJB · Joined: 14 Apr 2006 Posts: 594

Being a 100% normal human being, also means he had both a mother and a Father (as Jesus did).

The difference between Jesus and other men is that God was his Father, instead of a mortal man.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 22954

MJB wrote: Being a 100% normal human being, also means he had both a mother and a Father (as Jesus did).

The difference between Jesus and other men is that God was his Father, instead of a mortal man.

That's not what the Bible says. The Holy Spirit caused the miracle of Jesus being born from Mary.

God the Father doesn’t have physical form.

Todd D. · Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 2:35 pm Post subject:

John wrote: MJB wrote: Being a 100% normal human being, also means he had both a mother and a Father (as Jesus did).

The difference between Jesus and other men is that God was his Father, instead of a mortal man.

That's not what the Bible says. The Holy Spirit caused the miracle of Jesus being born from Mary.

God the Father doesn’t have physical form.
On this, we agree.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 22954

Todd D. wrote: John wrote: MJB wrote: Being a 100% normal human being, also means he had both a mother and a Father (as Jesus did).

The difference between Jesus and other men is that God was his Father, instead of a mortal man.

That's not what the Bible says. The Holy Spirit caused the miracle of Jesus being born from Mary.

God the Father doesn’t have physical form.
On this, we agree.

Well let's hope so. :wink:

MJB · Joined: 14 Apr 2006 Posts: 594

John wrote: MJB wrote: Being a 100% normal human being, also means he had both a mother and a Father (as Jesus did).

The difference between Jesus and other men is that God was his Father, instead of a mortal man.

That's not what the Bible says.

The Bible says Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Jesus, himself, said he was the Son of God.

God, himself, said that Jesus was his Son.

John wrote: The Holy Spirit caused the miracle of Jesus being born from Mary.

Involved? Yes.

Caused? No.

It was God that overshadowed Mary.

Luke 1:32-35
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, AND the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

The Highest is God.

John wrote: God the Father doesn’t have physical form.

It is the Holy Ghost that does not have physical form.

Jesus Christ was born onto the earth with a physical body, the result of conception:

Luke 1:31
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

After his death, Jesus took up that physical body again at his resurrection:

Luke 24:39
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

And Jesus is in the express image of his Father:

Hebrews 1:1-4
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

Remember - like begets like, not something different. Jesus Christ was begotten of God. Jesus is in the express image of his Father. Therefore - God the Father is in the same image as his Son, Jesus Christ. Not some different image. Jesus is in the image and likeness of his Father, just as the rest of men are in the image and likeness of their fathers:

Genesis 5:3
3 ¶ And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth.

And man was created in the image and likeness of God:

Genesis 1:26-27
26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Just as man was created in the image and likeness of God, and Adam's son, Seth, was in Adam's image and likeness, so was Jesus, the Son of God, in the image and likeness of his Father, who is God.

im·age
n.
1. A reproduction of the form of a person or object, especially a sculptured likeness.
2. Physics. An optically formed duplicate, counterpart, or other representative reproduction of an object, especially an optical reproduction formed by a lens or mirror.
3. One that closely or exactly resembles another; a double: He is the image of his uncle.

like·ness
n.
1. The state, quality, or fact of being like; resemblance.
2. An imitative appearance; a semblance.
3. A pictorial, graphic, or sculptured representation of something; an image.

Therefore - as per the topic of this thread - if Mary, being the mother of Jesus, had other children, they would be the half siblings of Jesus.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 22954

Quote: Involved? Yes.

Caused? No.

It was God that overshadowed Mary.

The Holy Spirit is God.

MJB · Joined: 14 Apr 2006 Posts: 594

John wrote: Quote: Involved? Yes.

Caused? No.

It was God that overshadowed Mary.

The Holy Spirit is God.

The Holy Ghost is not the Father.

John 5:7
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

John Galt · Joined: 04 May 2004 Posts: 20982 Location: Minnesota

MJB wrote: John wrote: Quote: Involved? Yes.

Caused? No.

It was God that overshadowed Mary.

The Holy Spirit is God.

The Holy Ghost is not the Father.

John 5:7
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

The three are one; the Holy Trinity is pretty basic Christian theology.

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

John Galt wrote: The three are one; the Holy Trinity is pretty basic Christian theology.
Does that mean Christianity is an exercise in DoubleThink? :-D

MJB · Joined: 14 Apr 2006 Posts: 594

John Galt wrote: MJB wrote: John wrote: Quote: Involved? Yes.

Caused? No.

It was God that overshadowed Mary.

The Holy Spirit is God.

The Holy Ghost is not the Father.

John 5:7
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

The three are one; the Holy Trinity is pretty basic Christian theology.

Indeed they are one - but they are not the same being. There is a difference.

They are one, just as Jesus described:

John 17:20-23
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

MJB wrote: John wrote: Quote: Involved? Yes.

Caused? No.

It was God that overshadowed Mary.

The Holy Spirit is God.

The Holy Ghost is not the Father.

John 5:7
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

That's actually 1 John 5:7, one of the epistles.

In case anyone was wondering. :-D

MJB · Joined: 14 Apr 2006 Posts: 594

cap'n queasy wrote: MJB wrote: John wrote: Quote: Involved? Yes.

Caused? No.

It was God that overshadowed Mary.

The Holy Spirit is God.

The Holy Ghost is not the Father.

John 5:7
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

That's actually 1 John 5:7, one of the epistles.

In case anyone was wondering. :-D

Yes - thanks. :wink:

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

MJB wrote: John Galt wrote: MJB wrote: John wrote: Quote: Involved? Yes.

Caused? No.

It was God that overshadowed Mary.

The Holy Spirit is God.

The Holy Ghost is not the Father.

John 5:7
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

The three are one; the Holy Trinity is pretty basic Christian theology.

Indeed they are one - but they are not the same being. There is a difference.

They are one, just as Jesus described:

John 17:20-23
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

There is only one God.

When the ineffable and unknowable Father is incarnate in human form, this is the Son. When He is present in spiritual form this is the Holy Spirit.

The Father is not a man from another planet who achieved godhood and recieved the Earth as His dominion.

LetsGetReal · Joined: 26 Aug 2004 Posts: 5791 Location: Peoria, AZ

He doesn't understand the meaning of the word, this subject has been told to him by every real christian, but hes been tricked by mormons to believe otherwise.

No Psholtz it's not double think, double think was to erase words, three in one created a word, "trinity".

MJB · Joined: 14 Apr 2006 Posts: 594

cap'n queasy wrote: MJB wrote: John Galt wrote: MJB wrote: John wrote: Quote: Involved? Yes.

Caused? No.

It was God that overshadowed Mary.

The Holy Spirit is God.

The Holy Ghost is not the Father.

John 5:7
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

The three are one; the Holy Trinity is pretty basic Christian theology.

Indeed they are one - but they are not the same being. There is a difference.

They are one, just as Jesus described:

John 17:20-23
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

There is only one God.

When the ineffable and unknowable Father is incarnate in human form, this is the Son. When He is present in spiritual form this is the Holy Spirit

Unknowable? The Savior, himself, said:

John 17:3
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

MJB · Joined: 14 Apr 2006 Posts: 594

LetsGetReal wrote: He doesn't understand the meaning of the word

To the contrary. Words do mean things. Words such as Father, and also Son. Words such as mother, and conceive, as well as begotten. Image, likeness, and flesh and bone mean things too. I know what these words mean.

I even know that the word one, has more than one definition. It can mean one, as in single and alone, or it can mean being unified. Jesus, himself, makes it very clear what this, "one," really is.

John 17:20-23
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

LetsGetReal wrote: No Psholtz it's not double think, double think was to erase words, three in one created a word, "trinity".

The Bible doesn't say, "three in one."

And by the way - the Biblical word used is Godhead, not trinity.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

MJB wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: MJB wrote: John Galt wrote: MJB wrote: John wrote: Quote: Involved? Yes.

Caused? No.

It was God that overshadowed Mary.

The Holy Spirit is God.

The Holy Ghost is not the Father.

John 5:7
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

The three are one; the Holy Trinity is pretty basic Christian theology.

Indeed they are one - but they are not the same being. There is a difference.

They are one, just as Jesus described:

John 17:20-23
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

There is only one God.

When the ineffable and unknowable Father is incarnate in human form, this is the Son. When He is present in spiritual form this is the Holy Spirit

Unknowable? The Savior, himself, said:

John 17:3
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Knowing that there is a God who exists, and understanding what He is are two completely different things. No one can comprehend the ultimate nature of God, the Father, therefore He is unknowable. We do know He exists, though. The only path to Him is through the Son.

God the Father is not a man, from another planet, that is more spiritually advanced than we are.

That concept is something that will destroy you.

MJB · Joined: 14 Apr 2006 Posts: 594

cap'n queasy wrote: MJB wrote: John 17:3
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Knowing that there is a God who exists, and understanding what He is are two completely different things. No one can comprehend the ultimate nature of God, the Father, therefore He is unknowable. We do know He exists, though. The only path to Him is through the Son.

Simply having a belief in the existence of God, is by no means the same thing as knowing God.

But - if God is unknowable to man, it is because man has created for himself an incomprehensible and unknowable God. It is certainly not for any lack of clarity on God's part.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

God the Father is not a man, from another planet, that is more spiritually advanced than we are.

From a Mormon website.

Quote: But the maxim is true of the Father as well. As the Prophet Joseph Smith said, "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret" (TPJS, p. 345). Thus, the Father became the Father at some time before "the beginning" as humans know it, by experiencing a mortality similar to that experienced on earth.
http://ldsfaq.byu.edu/emmain.asp?number=91

That's not Christianity so it doesn't belong in the Christianity forum. .