Political Crossfire Forums

[Lord Hargreaves]

Quote: 53When Jesus had finished [his] parables, he moved on from there. 54Coming to his hometown, he began teaching the people in their synagogue, and they were amazed. "Where did this man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers?" they asked. 55"Isn't this the carpenter's son? Isn't his mother's name Mary, and aren't his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? 56Aren't all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?" 57And they took offense at him. But Jesus said to them, "Only in his hometown and in his own house is a prophet without honor." 58And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith.

This passage appears to claim Jesus had brothers and sisters? Am i reading this correctly?

[cap'n queasy]

Yes.

Is that a problem?

[mojo]

The Catholic perspective says that Jesus did not have any brothers or sisters. The term brother was commonly used in ancient times for cousin, neighbor, and friend.

[John]

Lord Hargreaves wrote: Quote: 53When Jesus had finished [his] parables, he moved on from there. 54Coming to his hometown, he began teaching the people in their synagogue, and they were amazed. "Where did this man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers?" they asked. 55"Isn't this the carpenter's son? Isn't his mother's name Mary, and aren't his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? 56Aren't all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?" 57And they took offense at him. But Jesus said to them, "Only in his hometown and in his own house is a prophet without honor." 58And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith.

This passage appears to claim Jesus had brothers and sisters? Am i reading this correctly?

Yup.

[Rankor and Pissing]

Yes Jesus had siblings

[Lord Hargreaves]

cap'n queasy wrote: Yes.

Is that a problem?

so they are the children of mary and joseph? and that would only make them half-siblings if joseph didnt father jesus. I assume also they must be younger brothers and sisters then?

and what happened to them?

[John]

mojo wrote: The Catholic perspective says that Jesus did not have any brothers or sisters. The term brother was commonly used in ancient times for cousin, neighbor, and friend.

Catholics have a problem.

They have Doctrine about Mary the mother of Christ that contradicts what is in the Bible. For some strange reason the Catholics feel that Mary needs to have remained a virgin during her whole life. They fail to see that this would have been wrong in itself because she was married to Joseph. Sex isn’t evil…in fact it would be evil to forbid a man from having relations with his wife.

There seems to be a need to classify Mary as a type of Co-Redemptrix within Catholicism. Where Jesus and Mary are a type of team that made it possible for man to be redeemed. This evolved into Mary being seen as a type of Goddess so to speak….so it’s understandable why the belief that she was a sinless perpetual virgin came into being.

[Todd D.]

Meh, I think both sides have a problem.

Protestants have a problem. For a thousand years nobody, NOBODY, felt that Mary had other children. There has never been evidence of them in early church writings, nor was there ever traces of their bloodline kept, something that would highly unlikely considering that they would share a bloodline with the living God. The closest thing you had to such a belief is the Orthodox churches that hold to the idea that Joseph was a widower, and that those mentioned were actually step-siblings to Christ. Regardless, the perpetual virginity theory held long into the 2nd Milenia. Obviously, longevity by itsself is not proof of validity, Muslims have believed Jesus was only a prophet for over a thousand years as well, but when you combine the fact that you can't find significant documents to assert that Mary had other children beyond vague references in the Bible, the truth is far from clear.

When the Bible was translated to Germanic languages, Catholics and Orthodox churches had a problem. Words that used to mean "close relatives" were translated as "brothers". I don't debate the translation, because that probably is the most accurate given the circumstances, but for a language that had 5 different words for love, familial relations probably was not on the list of specifics. Context probably played a big key in to it.

I can't prove that Mary didn't have more children after Jesus, I just think that the evidence points against it. Likewise, Protestants can't prove that Mary had more children, they simply believe that the evidence points to it. Both sides have validity.

[MJB]

If Mary had other children, they could only be the half-siblings of Jesus if Jesus was literally Mary's biological offspring.

Some here think Jesus was born without any genetic conception, and if that was the case, he couldn't have half-siblings, even if Mary did have other children.

[cap'n queasy]

Lord Hargreaves wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Yes.

Is that a problem?

so they are the children of mary and joseph? and that would only make them half-siblings if joseph didnt father jesus. I assume also they must be younger brothers and sisters then?

and what happened to them?

Yes, that is correct.

James and Jude became believers after Y'shua's resurrection and wrote books in the Bible. James became the Bishop of Jerusalem, and was eventually thrown off a cliff in Jerusalem, by enemies of the fledgling faith.

I'm not really sure what happened to the rest of them.

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: you can't find significant documents to assert that Mary had other children beyond vague references in the Bible

They don't seem that vague at all to me.

Explaining them away by saying they meant a cousin or something is pretty specious in my opinion.

[sLiPpY]

cap'n queasy wrote: Lord Hargreaves wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Yes.

Is that a problem?

so they are the children of mary and joseph? and that would only make them half-siblings if joseph didnt father jesus. I assume also they must be younger brothers and sisters then?

and what happened to them?

Yes, that is correct.

James and Jude became believers after Y'shua's resurrection and wrote books in the Bible. James became the Bishop of Jerusalem, and was eventually thrown off a cliff in Jerusalem, by enemies of the fledgling faith.

I'm not really sure what happened to the rest of them.

dang, you beat me to mentioning James. :-D

[ChuckBerry]

This is the Catholic Church's official teaching on the perpetual virginity of Mary:

Mary's virginity

496 From the first formulations of her faith, the Church has confessed that Jesus was conceived solely by the power of the Holy Spirit in the womb of the Virgin Mary, affirming also the corporeal aspect of this event: Jesus was conceived "by the Holy Spirit without human seed".146 The Fathers see in the virginal conception the sign that it truly was the Son of God who came in a humanity like our own. Thus St. Ignatius of Antioch at the beginning of the second century says:


You are firmly convinced about our Lord, who is truly of the race of David according to the flesh, Son of God according to the will and power of God, truly born of a virgin,. . . he was truly nailed to a tree for us in his flesh under Pontius Pilate. . . he truly suffered, as he is also truly risen.147

497 The Gospel accounts understand the virginal conception of Jesus as a divine work that surpasses all human understanding and possibility:148 "That which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit", said the angel to Joseph about Mary his fiancee.149 The Church sees here the fulfillment of the divine promise given through the prophet Isaiah: "Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son."150

498 People are sometimes troubled by the silence of St. Mark's Gospel and the New Testament Epistles about Jesus' virginal conception. Some might wonder if we were merely dealing with legends or theological constructs not claiming to be history. To this we must respond: Faith in the virginal conception of Jesus met with the lively opposition, mockery or incomprehension of non-believers, Jews and pagans alike;151 so it could hardly have been motivated by pagan mythology or by some adaptation to the ideas of the age. The meaning of this event is accessible only to faith, which understands in it the "connection of these mysteries with one another"152 in the totality of Christ's mysteries, from his Incarnation to his Passover. St. Ignatius of Antioch already bears witness to this connection: "Mary's virginity and giving birth, and even the Lord's death escaped the notice of the prince of this world: these three mysteries worthy of proclamation were accomplished in God's silence."153

Mary - "ever-virgin"

499 The deepening of faith in the virginal motherhood led the Church to confess Mary's real and perpetual virginity even in the act of giving birth to the Son of God made man.154 In fact, Christ's birth "did not diminish his mother's virginal integrity but sanctified it."155 And so the liturgy of the Church celebrates Mary as Aeiparthenos, the "Ever-virgin".156

500 Against this doctrine the objection is sometimes raised that the Bible mentions brothers and sisters of Jesus.157 The Church has always understood these passages as not referring to other children of the Virgin Mary. In fact James and Joseph, "brothers of Jesus", are the sons of another Mary, a disciple of Christ, whom St. Matthew significantly calls "the other Mary".158 They are close relations of Jesus, according to an Old Testament expression.159

501 Jesus is Mary's only son, but her spiritual motherhood extends to all men whom indeed he came to save: "The Son whom she brought forth is he whom God placed as the first-born among many brethren, that is, the faithful in whose generation and formation she co-operates with a mother's love."160

Mary's virginal motherhood in God's plan

502 The eyes of faith can discover in the context of the whole of Revelation the mysterious reasons why God in his saving plan wanted his Son to be born of a virgin. These reasons touch both on the person of Christ and his redemptive mission, and on the welcome Mary gave that mission on behalf of all men.

503 Mary's virginity manifests God's absolute initiative in the Incarnation. Jesus has only God as Father. "He was never estranged from the Father because of the human nature which he assumed. . . He is naturally Son of the Father as to his divinity and naturally son of his mother as to his humanity, but properly Son of the Father in both natures."161

504 Jesus is conceived by the Holy Spirit in the Virgin Mary's womb because he is the New Adam, who inaugurates the new creation: "The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven."162 From his conception, Christ's humanity is filled with the Holy Spirit, for God "gives him the Spirit without measure."163 From "his fullness" as the head of redeemed humanity "we have all received, grace upon grace."164

505 By his virginal conception, Jesus, the New Adam, ushers in the new birth of children adopted in the Holy Spirit through faith. "How can this be?"165 Participation in the divine life arises "not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God".166 The acceptance of this life is virginal because it is entirely the Spirit's gift to man. The spousal character of the human vocation in relation to God167 is fulfilled perfectly in Mary's virginal motherhood.


506 Mary is a virgin because her virginity is the sign of her faith "unadulterated by any doubt", and of her undivided gift of herself to God's will.168 It is her faith that enables her to become the mother of the Savior: "Mary is more blessed because she embraces faith in Christ than because she conceives the flesh of Christ."169

507 At once virgin and mother, Mary is the symbol and the most perfect realization of the Church: "the Church indeed. . . by receiving the word of God in faith becomes herself a mother. By preaching and Baptism she brings forth sons, who are conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of God, to a new and immortal life. She herself is a virgin, who keeps in its entirety and purity the faith she pledged to her spouse."170

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p122a3p2.htm#484

[psholtz]

Lord Hargreaves wrote: This passage appears to claim Jesus had brothers and sisters? Am i reading this correctly?
Does it really matter?

[cap'n queasy]

sLiPpY wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Lord Hargreaves wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Yes.

Is that a problem?

so they are the children of mary and joseph? and that would only make them half-siblings if joseph didnt father jesus. I assume also they must be younger brothers and sisters then?

and what happened to them?

Yes, that is correct.

James and Jude became believers after Y'shua's resurrection and wrote books in the Bible. James became the Bishop of Jerusalem, and was eventually thrown off a cliff in Jerusalem, by enemies of the fledgling faith.

I'm not really sure what happened to the rest of them.

dang, you beat me to mentioning James. :-D

heh heh.

Don't you hate that? :lol:

[melchizedek22]

mojo wrote: The Catholic perspective says that Jesus did not have any brothers or sisters. The term brother was commonly used in ancient times for cousin, neighbor, and friend.

Because the Catholics have this stupid idea that Mary was a virgin her whole life!Complete BS by the way!

[melchizedek22]

CCD wrote: This is the Catholic Church's official teaching on the perpetual virginity of Mary:

Mary's virginity

496 From the first formulations of her faith, the Church has confessed that Jesus was conceived solely by the power of the Holy Spirit in the womb of the Virgin Mary, affirming also the corporeal aspect of this event: Jesus was conceived "by the Holy Spirit without human seed".146 The Fathers see in the virginal conception the sign that it truly was the Son of God who came in a humanity like our own. Thus St. Ignatius of Antioch at the beginning of the second century says:


You are firmly convinced about our Lord, who is truly of the race of David according to the flesh, Son of God according to the will and power of God, truly born of a virgin,. . . he was truly nailed to a tree for us in his flesh under Pontius Pilate. . . he truly suffered, as he is also truly risen.147

497 The Gospel accounts understand the virginal conception of Jesus as a divine work that surpasses all human understanding and possibility:148 "That which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit", said the angel to Joseph about Mary his fiancee.149 The Church sees here the fulfillment of the divine promise given through the prophet Isaiah: "Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son."150

498 People are sometimes troubled by the silence of St. Mark's Gospel and the New Testament Epistles about Jesus' virginal conception. Some might wonder if we were merely dealing with legends or theological constructs not claiming to be history. To this we must respond: Faith in the virginal conception of Jesus met with the lively opposition, mockery or incomprehension of non-believers, Jews and pagans alike;151 so it could hardly have been motivated by pagan mythology or by some adaptation to the ideas of the age. The meaning of this event is accessible only to faith, which understands in it the "connection of these mysteries with one another"152 in the totality of Christ's mysteries, from his Incarnation to his Passover. St. Ignatius of Antioch already bears witness to this connection: "Mary's virginity and giving birth, and even the Lord's death escaped the notice of the prince of this world: these three mysteries worthy of proclamation were accomplished in God's silence."153

Mary - "ever-virgin"

499 The deepening of faith in the virginal motherhood led the Church to confess Mary's real and perpetual virginity even in the act of giving birth to the Son of God made man.154 In fact, Christ's birth "did not diminish his mother's virginal integrity but sanctified it."155 And so the liturgy of the Church celebrates Mary as Aeiparthenos, the "Ever-virgin".156

500 Against this doctrine the objection is sometimes raised that the Bible mentions brothers and sisters of Jesus.157 The Church has always understood these passages as not referring to other children of the Virgin Mary. In fact James and Joseph, "brothers of Jesus", are the sons of another Mary, a disciple of Christ, whom St. Matthew significantly calls "the other Mary".158 They are close relations of Jesus, according to an Old Testament expression.159

501 Jesus is Mary's only son, but her spiritual motherhood extends to all men whom indeed he came to save: "The Son whom she brought forth is he whom God placed as the first-born among many brethren, that is, the faithful in whose generation and formation she co-operates with a mother's love."160

Mary's virginal motherhood in God's plan

502 The eyes of faith can discover in the context of the whole of Revelation the mysterious reasons why God in his saving plan wanted his Son to be born of a virgin. These reasons touch both on the person of Christ and his redemptive mission, and on the welcome Mary gave that mission on behalf of all men.

503 Mary's virginity manifests God's absolute initiative in the Incarnation. Jesus has only God as Father. "He was never estranged from the Father because of the human nature which he assumed. . . He is naturally Son of the Father as to his divinity and naturally son of his mother as to his humanity, but properly Son of the Father in both natures."161

504 Jesus is conceived by the Holy Spirit in the Virgin Mary's womb because he is the New Adam, who inaugurates the new creation: "The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven."162 From his conception, Christ's humanity is filled with the Holy Spirit, for God "gives him the Spirit without measure."163 From "his fullness" as the head of redeemed humanity "we have all received, grace upon grace."164

505 By his virginal conception, Jesus, the New Adam, ushers in the new birth of children adopted in the Holy Spirit through faith. "How can this be?"165 Participation in the divine life arises "not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God".166 The acceptance of this life is virginal because it is entirely the Spirit's gift to man. The spousal character of the human vocation in relation to God167 is fulfilled perfectly in Mary's virginal motherhood.


506 Mary is a virgin because her virginity is the sign of her faith "unadulterated by any doubt", and of her undivided gift of herself to God's will.168 It is her faith that enables her to become the mother of the Savior: "Mary is more blessed because she embraces faith in Christ than because she conceives the flesh of Christ."169

507 At once virgin and mother, Mary is the symbol and the most perfect realization of the Church: "the Church indeed. . . by receiving the word of God in faith becomes herself a mother. By preaching and Baptism she brings forth sons, who are conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of God, to a new and immortal life. She herself is a virgin, who keeps in its entirety and purity the faith she pledged to her spouse."170

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p122a3p2.htm#484

BS in spades

[Todd D.]

Do you have something to add other than just stamping it "BS"? Isn't that basically just sticking your fingers in your ears and going "NUH UH NUH UH!!!"

Quote: They don't seem that vague at all to me.

Explaining them away by saying they meant a cousin or something is pretty specious in my opinion.
Let's look at the passage again, but with the original greek meaning in there:
Quote: 53When Jesus had finished [his] parables, he moved on from there. 54Coming to his hometown, he began teaching the people in their synagogue, and they were amazed. "Where did this man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers?" they asked. 55"Isn't this the carpenter's son? Isn't his mother's name Mary, and isn't he family to James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? 56 Where then did this man get all these things?" 57And they took offense at him. But Jesus said to them, "Only in his hometown and in his own house is a prophet without honor." 58And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith.
That would certainly be a bit vague, in my opinion.

Like I said, I think a good case can be made either way, I tend to think that the fact that this idea was not present in the early church (where, logic would state, these same siblings would have had significant visibility) would strongly suggest that they were not really other children of Mary. That is, admittadly, just my opinion, but I think it does present a logical problem.

[perdidochas]

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: you can't find significant documents to assert that Mary had other children beyond vague references in the Bible

They don't seem that vague at all to me.

Explaining them away by saying they meant a cousin or something is pretty specious in my opinion.

Have you read the Gospels in Aramaic? Honestly, to say that argument is specious is specious.

[LetsGetReal]

perdidochas wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: you can't find significant documents to assert that Mary had other children beyond vague references in the Bible

They don't seem that vague at all to me.

Explaining them away by saying they meant a cousin or something is pretty specious in my opinion.

Have you read the Gospels in Aramaic? Honestly, to say that argument is specious is specious. I truly don't have a problem with you guys claiming she was a virgin her whole life. I don't believe thats truly that important, but when you say she didn't sin, was perfect, and the bride of Jesus we have some big problems.