Political Crossfire Forums

[Limey Boosk]

You have to laugh at Americans.

You have the fellow up above saying it isn't a problem with guns it is a security problem.

In Britain psychos carry knives or sticks. Even if one person goes nuts, a group of people normally jump on him.

Britain has tightened its gun laws since the Dunblaine Massacre. Anyone doesn' remember that sicko try googling it. Seeing the pictures of those kids who were taken out by a nut with a gun is stomach churning.

This will happen again and again and again, until someone takes guns away from idiotic Americans.

[Di]

MG1962 wrote:

No offense taken. However I do feel moved to point out the following

Gun related deaths USA All causes 2001 - 29,573

http://thegreenman.net.au/mt/gun_deaths_in_usa.htm

Gun related deaths Australia All causes 2001 - 333

http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/tandi2/tandi269.pdf#search=%22gun%20related%20deaths%20in%20Australia%22

US Population 2001 285,317,572

Aust Population 2001 30,000,000 Aprox

US population is 9.51 times Australian. Therefore adjusted figure are

US Deaths 3109

In other words in 2001 The US reported a death by firearms rate aproximately 9 times that of Australia

:) Hope that helps

I'm not surprised, since (with some rare exceptions, if I'm understanding Au law on guns correctly) owning a gun in Australia is illegal, isn't it? So that's kind of comparing apples and oranges. If you want to compare total crime rates, it would probably be more accurate, but I'm sure the USA would still have a higher crime rate, for all kinds of reasons. My comparison was based on Canada, where guns can still be legally purchased and owned by average citizens.

I think if everytime something awful happened in Australia you have to sift through dozens of smug comments from around the world about how terrible things happen in Australia because Australians and Australia are so awful/stupid/arrogant/rednecked/bloodthirsty/insult-of-the-day, you'd get a bit annoyed as well. Meanwhile, I will accept your post in the spirit in which it was intended, which was to make Australia look superior to the USA. Yes? LOL! :-D

[Di]

Yrkoon wrote: I don't see this as a gun issue. I see this as a security issue, instead. In terms of security, schools are the most neglected state institutions in the US. Here in St. Louis, anyone can walk right through the front doors of any suburbia-located school. There's no greeter, there's no security guards, there's no cameras, there's no metal detectors. Nothing.

Holy smokes. The apocalypse is here. I agree with Yrkoon about something. :lol:

Yes, school security is basically neglected... primarily as a cost issue, since the kinds of security needed for every one of the millions of schools in this country would cost local taxpayers a fortune, and because the actual percent of major incidents at schools compared to that massive number of schools is probably pretty miniscule over all. Still one preventable massacre makes it worthwhile to me, as both a parent and a taxpayer.

Until every citizen browbeats their local school boards for beefed up security in all schools... AND follows up by opening their own wallets to pay for it... I don't forsee a major change in the near future.

The good news is that there are improvements in school security, particularly in the rougher urban neighborhoods, including cameras, metal detectors, security guards. The bad news is that determined thugs can usually find a way around all those safeguards. Humans who want to hurt other humans always have, and always will, find ways to do just that.

[Di]

moody wrote:
Some good points on the surface, but I will still have to disagree with you.
Europe for example has guns outlawed and it has lowest crime rate and gun accidents in the whole world...

"Europe" consists of dozens of individual countries. Could you please support this rather surprising statement that the combined countries in Europe have the lowest crime rate in the whole world with some kind of link, please? Because NationMaster Total Crimes by Country does not seem to support such a statement, with the USA, Germany, UK, and France sharing the top four spots world wide (this is not crimes per capita, but total crimes committed). When it comes to Global crimes per capita , Finland, Denmark and the UK are all higher than the USA... so I honestly do not see where you can support your contention.

[perdidochas]

Yrkoon wrote: Di wrote: There were three school shootings this week? Cripes, where was I? Can someone list where they were and what happened?

I don't know if there were three school shootings this week, however, I tend to look at the bigger picture: there were many this year. There was one last year, one the year before that, one in 2003 etc.

Associated press list. And note, this is not a complete list Quote: A list of some fatal shootings at U.S. schools in recent years:

• Oct. 2, 2006: A gunman took about a dozen girls hostage, killing at least three of them, at a one-room Amish schoolhouse in Pennsylvania's Lancaster County, police said. The shooter was among the dead, and a number of people were injured.

• Sept. 29, 2006: 15-year-old Eric Hainstock brought two guns to a school in rural Cazenovia, Wis., and fatally shot the principal, a day after the principal gave him a disciplinary warning for having tobacco on school grounds, police said.

• Sept. 27, 2006: Duane Morrison, 53, took six girls hostage at Platte Canyon High School in Bailey, Colo. Morrison, sexually assaulting them and using them as human shields for hours before fatally shooting one girl and killing himself.

• Aug. 24, 2006: Christopher Williams, 27, went to an elementary school in Essex, Vermont, looking for his ex-girlfriend, a teacher. He couldn't find her and fatally shot one teacher and wounded another, police said. Williams also killed his ex-girlfriend's mother, according to authorities. He shot himself twice in the head after the rampage and was arrested.

• March 21, 2005: Sixteen-year-old Jeff Weise shot and killed five schoolmates, a teacher and an unarmed guard at a high school on the Red Lake Indian Reservation in Minnesota before taking his own life. Weise had earlier killed his grandfather and his grandfather's companion.

• Nov. 22, 2004: Sixteen-year-old Desmond Keels is accused of fatally shooting one student and wounding three others outside Strawberry Mansion High in Philadelphia. The attack apparently was over a $50 debt in a rap contest. Keels is set to stand trial on murder charges later this month.

• April 24, 2003: 14-year-old James Sheets shot and killed the principal in the crowded cafeteria of a junior high school in south-central Pennsylvania, before killing himself.

• May 26, 2000: 13-year-old Nathaniel Brazill killed his English teacher on the last day of classes in Lake Worth, Fla., after the teacher refused to let him talk with two girls in his classroom. He was convicted of second-degree murder and is serving a 28-year sentence.

• April 20, 1999: Students Eric Harris, 18, and Dylan Klebold, 17, killed 12 students and a teacher and wounded 23 before killing themselves at Columbine High School in Littleton, Colo.

• May 21, 1998: Two teenagers were killed and more than 20 people hurt when a teenage boy opened fire at a high school in Springfield, Ore., after killing his parents. Kip Kinkel, 17, was sentenced to nearly 112 years in prison.

• May 19, 1998: Three days before his graduation, an honor student opened fire at a high school in Fayetteville, Tenn., killing a classmate who was dating his ex-girlfriend. Jacob Davis, 18, was sentenced to life in prison.

• March 24, 1998: Two boys, ages 11 and 13, fired on their Jonesboro, Ark., middle school from nearby woods, killing four girls and a teacher and wounding 10 others. Both boys were later convicted of murder and can be held until age 21.

• Dec. 1, 1997: Three students were killed and five wounded at a high school in West Paducah, Ky. Michael Carneal, then 14, later pleaded guilty but mentally ill to murder and is serving life in prison.

• Oct. 1, 1997: Sixteen-year-old Luke Woodham of Pearl, Miss., fatally shot two students and wounded seven others after stabbing his mother to death. He was sentenced the following year to three life sentences.



I don't see this as a gun issue. I see this as a security issue, instead. In terms of security, schools are the most neglected state institutions in the US. Here in St. Louis, anyone can walk right through the front doors of any suburbia-located school. There's no greeter, there's no security guards, there's no cameras, there's no metal detectors. Nothing.

It's really not an issue. There are approximately 50 million school age kids in the U.S. In the last year (this last bloody month included) there were less than 20 deaths due to school insecurity. That's .04 school deaths per 100,000 school kids. Many more kids die each year driving to school.

[Wizard From Oz]

Quote: I'm not surprised, since (with some rare exceptions, if I'm understanding Au law on guns correctly) owning a gun in Australia is illegal, isn't it? So that's kind of comparing apples and oranges. If you want to compare total crime rates, it would probably be more accurate, but I'm sure the USA would still have a higher crime rate, for all kinds of reasons. My comparison was based on Canada, where guns can still be legally purchased and owned by average citizens

Not at all - In Australia our gun laws are set by the individual states, though I believe there are over all guidelines set by the Federal Gov.

http://www.shootersparty.org.au/faqs.htm

The above link is to perhaps the closest thing we have to your NRA. Run by a guy, John Tingle, who actually pretty switched on, though I suspect he will be retiring soon. He was old when I was a kid, and I am 40 plus now myself.

Getting comparitve crime data in Australia is tough, because it is all put together on a state basis. In New South Wales, the general perception is the crime rate is falling dramatically, though violent crimes such as rape etc have increased (go figure) It usually gets brought out and trotted around at election time, and we are not due another one for 18 months or so.

And no I am not about telling others their nation stinks, or my country is better than theirs. It is far too subjective a topic at best

[NovaPacifica]

CNN Posts:
Quote: PARADISE, Pennsylvania (CNN) -- A grieving grandfather told young relatives not to hate the gunman who killed five girls in an Amish schoolhouse massacre, a pastor said on Wednesday.
CNN.com - Article

What I can not understand, how in the world could you not be mad and forgive the killer. How can you forgive someone who kills children who just started their lifes and had so much to live for. If this was my child (Dont have any, opinion might change if I did) I would not be mad since he did kill himself but I dont know about forgiving, I mean I feel sorry for the person children and wife that have to deal with this all too. Of course condolences towards the victims and victims family.

[Wizard From Oz]

Quote: What I can not understand, how in the world could you not be mad and forgive the killer. How can you forgive someone who kills children who just started their lifes and had so much to live for

Amish people are very deeply committed to their faith. One of the cornerstones of that faith is forgiveness.

Could I do it? Like you I seriously doubt it

[NovaPacifica]

MG1962 wrote: Quote: What I can not understand, how in the world could you not be mad and forgive the killer. How can you forgive someone who kills children who just started their lifes and had so much to live for

Amish people are very deeply committed to their faith. One of the cornerstones of that faith is forgiveness.

Could I do it? Like you I seriously doubt it

I am not very familiar with the idea of fait in the Amish community, but I guess you have to be in the situation to really form a good opinion.

[moody]

sailorman126 wrote: moody
sorry to have to correct you but in europe crime is higher in many parts than in the us. and in this country the areas that have strict gun laws have a higher crime rate than those with fewer gun laws.
the only crime that is higher is crimes with a gun.
and the stat that you dont see is how many crimes are stoped by a person with a gun. for some reason teh press never like to publish that one.
another thing that you might not know about is how the number of gun deaths are caculated.
they include sucide that is over 50% of all gun deaths in this country, it includes police killing criminals and it includes acts of self defence.
for some reason the anti gunners dont tell you that about the number they use.

I agree with some of the stuff you said but your crime rates in US vs Europe are totaly wrong and reversed. You might've read one article stating that, but most of the stuff you find online is saying that europe has much lower crime rate if not lowest in the world. i also lived in europe for 20 years and been all over and I can tell you there is a huge differance.
But things are getting better in US i think. Especially New York and cities up north.
here are some resources (there are lot more):
http://www.publiceye.org/defendingjustice/pdfs/factsheets/9-Fact%20Sheet%20-%20US%20vs%20World.pdf#search=%22world%20crime%20rates%22

Here is also article that showed in the papaers a year ago:
Top 5 safest cities are in the europe:
Luxembourg is the world's safest city, followed by Helsinki, Geneva, Bern, Zurich and Singapore, says a global Mercer survey.

Nine of Japan's cities shared 7th place for safety, and all Japanese cities were in the top 20, mainly due to their efficient law enforcement and crime control. Cities ranking least safe were in places where coups and civil wars have taken place, like the Central African Republic, the Congo and Luanda, Angola. In Europe, the least safe Cities were Milan, Athens and Rome, and in the U.S., Washington D.C. won that dubious honor. For overall quality of life, 17 of the world's top cities were in Europe, with Zurich scoring highest and Geneva and Vienna tied for second with Vancouver. The analysis was based on an evaluation of 39 criteria, including political, social, economic and environment, personal safety and health, education, transport and other public services.

[Yrkoon]

perdidochas wrote: Yrkoon wrote: Di wrote: There were three school shootings this week? Cripes, where was I? Can someone list where they were and what happened?

I don't know if there were three school shootings this week, however, I tend to look at the bigger picture: there were many this year. There was one last year, one the year before that, one in 2003 etc.

Associated press list. And note, this is not a complete list Quote: A list of some fatal shootings at U.S. schools in recent years:

• Oct. 2, 2006: A gunman took about a dozen girls hostage, killing at least three of them, at a one-room Amish schoolhouse in Pennsylvania's Lancaster County, police said. The shooter was among the dead, and a number of people were injured.

• Sept. 29, 2006: 15-year-old Eric Hainstock brought two guns to a school in rural Cazenovia, Wis., and fatally shot the principal, a day after the principal gave him a disciplinary warning for having tobacco on school grounds, police said.

• Sept. 27, 2006: Duane Morrison, 53, took six girls hostage at Platte Canyon High School in Bailey, Colo. Morrison, sexually assaulting them and using them as human shields for hours before fatally shooting one girl and killing himself.

• Aug. 24, 2006: Christopher Williams, 27, went to an elementary school in Essex, Vermont, looking for his ex-girlfriend, a teacher. He couldn't find her and fatally shot one teacher and wounded another, police said. Williams also killed his ex-girlfriend's mother, according to authorities. He shot himself twice in the head after the rampage and was arrested.

• March 21, 2005: Sixteen-year-old Jeff Weise shot and killed five schoolmates, a teacher and an unarmed guard at a high school on the Red Lake Indian Reservation in Minnesota before taking his own life. Weise had earlier killed his grandfather and his grandfather's companion.

• Nov. 22, 2004: Sixteen-year-old Desmond Keels is accused of fatally shooting one student and wounding three others outside Strawberry Mansion High in Philadelphia. The attack apparently was over a $50 debt in a rap contest. Keels is set to stand trial on murder charges later this month.

• April 24, 2003: 14-year-old James Sheets shot and killed the principal in the crowded cafeteria of a junior high school in south-central Pennsylvania, before killing himself.

• May 26, 2000: 13-year-old Nathaniel Brazill killed his English teacher on the last day of classes in Lake Worth, Fla., after the teacher refused to let him talk with two girls in his classroom. He was convicted of second-degree murder and is serving a 28-year sentence.

• April 20, 1999: Students Eric Harris, 18, and Dylan Klebold, 17, killed 12 students and a teacher and wounded 23 before killing themselves at Columbine High School in Littleton, Colo.

• May 21, 1998: Two teenagers were killed and more than 20 people hurt when a teenage boy opened fire at a high school in Springfield, Ore., after killing his parents. Kip Kinkel, 17, was sentenced to nearly 112 years in prison.

• May 19, 1998: Three days before his graduation, an honor student opened fire at a high school in Fayetteville, Tenn., killing a classmate who was dating his ex-girlfriend. Jacob Davis, 18, was sentenced to life in prison.

• March 24, 1998: Two boys, ages 11 and 13, fired on their Jonesboro, Ark., middle school from nearby woods, killing four girls and a teacher and wounding 10 others. Both boys were later convicted of murder and can be held until age 21.

• Dec. 1, 1997: Three students were killed and five wounded at a high school in West Paducah, Ky. Michael Carneal, then 14, later pleaded guilty but mentally ill to murder and is serving life in prison.

• Oct. 1, 1997: Sixteen-year-old Luke Woodham of Pearl, Miss., fatally shot two students and wounded seven others after stabbing his mother to death. He was sentenced the following year to three life sentences.



I don't see this as a gun issue. I see this as a security issue, instead. In terms of security, schools are the most neglected state institutions in the US. Here in St. Louis, anyone can walk right through the front doors of any suburbia-located school. There's no greeter, there's no security guards, there's no cameras, there's no metal detectors. Nothing.

It's really not an issue. There are approximately 50 million school age kids in the U.S. In the last year (this last bloody month included) there were less than 20 deaths due to school insecurity. That's .04 school deaths per 100,000 school kids. Many more kids die each year driving to school.

While I'm a huge fan of this type of statistical logic, it really doesn't do much to convince most other people, specifically the victims and their parents, that school shootings/kidnappings etc. are not an issue

After all, this type of logic also suggests that terrorism isn't an issue. with 6 billion people on earth, the chances of a person dying from a terrorist attack is less than him getting struck by lightning.

[Bill Brasky]

Did anyone else hear the story about the amish victims' families going to the killer's house to offer forgiveness? Wow. How much strength does that take. You certainly would never see that elsewhere in our society

[Wizard From Oz]

Quote: Did anyone else hear the story about the amish victims' families going to the killer's house to offer forgiveness? Wow. How much strength does that take. You certainly would never see that elsewhere in our society

Nods - yeah I did hear that. They are amazing people when it comes to their faith. About the only thing I have seen to compare publicly was the Pope going to that Turkish guy that tried to assasinate him, and forgiving him.

[Bill Brasky]

MG1962 wrote: Quote: Did anyone else hear the story about the amish victims' families going to the killer's house to offer forgiveness? Wow. How much strength does that take. You certainly would never see that elsewhere in our society

Nods - yeah I did hear that. They are amazing people when it comes to their faith. About the only thing I have seen to compare publicly was the Pope going to that Turkish guy that tried to assasinate him, and forgiving him.

Look at the rest of our country. Rodney king got beaten, people who didn't know him detroyed their communities and beat random strangers.
Katrina, an act of nature, caused finger pointing of all varieteies. I'm not saying these people had no reason for their feelings, but perhaps there is a social lesson to be learned here.

[Wizard From Oz]

Quote: Look at the rest of our country. Rodney king got beaten, people who didn't know him detroyed their communities and beat random strangers.
Katrina, an act of nature, caused finger pointing of all varieteies. I'm not saying these people had no reason for their feelings, but perhaps there is a social lesson to be learned here.

Thats very true. That small act by those people will inspire others, it may only be a small ripple within the grand scheme of things, but many small ripples can eventually create a great wave.

Even in the terror and horror of Katrina, there was lessons to be learned. There was up lifting stories, stories of personal courage.

Anyway I often get accused of having too much faith in humanity, well I am still not ready to give up

[moody]

Bill Brasky wrote: MG1962 wrote: Quote: Did anyone else hear the story about the amish victims' families going to the killer's house to offer forgiveness? Wow. How much strength does that take. You certainly would never see that elsewhere in our society

Nods - yeah I did hear that. They are amazing people when it comes to their faith. About the only thing I have seen to compare publicly was the Pope going to that Turkish guy that tried to assasinate him, and forgiving him.

Look at the rest of our country. Rodney king got beaten, people who didn't know him detroyed their communities and beat random strangers.
Katrina, an act of nature, caused finger pointing of all varieteies. I'm not saying these people had no reason for their feelings, but perhaps there is a social lesson to be learned here.

Also , there was lootings and roberies during Katrina. Compare that to "thirld world country" thailand where tcunami had hit. There was none of that and destruction was on much higher scale and they call Thailand third world or uncilivlized. I just rememebred Ghandi's quote; when they've asked Ghandi about what he thinks about western civilization, he replied: "I think it would be great idea"

Quote:
ven in the terror and horror of Katrina, there was lessons to be learned. There was up lifting stories, stories of personal courage.
Yeah, most of the people that helped came from outside. I saw reporters asking few residets fleeting (big healthy guys in their 20's and 30') why won't they help their fellow citizens and they replied that that is not their job and just kept walking away, while others looted (including the police)

[Casualtie]

my school actuall made us do a few drills and stuff and go over some procedures as to what would go on if this were to actually happen at our school. they call it a lockdown:

the teachers lock the doors. we get against the walls and sit down to hide ourselves so if someone were to look in it would look like an empty classroom, with the lights off. good technique if you ask me.

i mean the locked door is just to mislead the guy into thinking the classroom is indeed empty, with the lights off. but i guess if every classroom is like that (and we have a lot of classrooms) and he saw a bunch of kids walking around previously, he would suspect something.

[NovaPacifica]

Casualtie wrote: my school actuall made us do a few drills and stuff and go over some procedures as to what would go on if this were to actually happen at our school. they call it a lockdown:

the teachers lock the doors. we get against the walls and sit down to hide ourselves so if someone were to look in it would look like an empty classroom, with the lights off. good technique if you ask me.

i mean the locked door is just to mislead the guy into thinking the classroom is indeed empty, with the lights off. but i guess if every classroom is like that (and we have a lot of classrooms) and he saw a bunch of kids walking around previously, he would suspect something.

We used to do that in our old school, but this one we haven't done one for a long while. Probably there will be one shortly, bomb drills are common too even thou we haven had a single fake call for 3 years ... amazing considering my old school you would get a call every time it snowed.

[Lumina]

Bill Brasky wrote: Did anyone else hear the story about the amish victims' families going to the killer's house to offer forgiveness? Wow. How much strength does that take. You certainly would never see that elsewhere in our society

This is only my personal experience and observation, but in my community I have seen this too--the reaching out of people of faith to each other and the understanding that some tragedies are beyond our understanding. No, I don't live among the Amish, but I have personally witnessed this reaching out among Jews, Christians, and Muslims. And I don't think this was an "Amish" attack; rather, it was a matter of opportunity.

And I do think, irrespective of particular religious belief because I've seen this myself in response to "hate crimes" as well as in response to random, opportunistic crimes, that people of good will and sincere faith, whatever that faith is, do respond with the charity and love and forgiveness that most religions teach.

I also think that what we all need to focus on is not this sick, sick man and his disgusting, murderous acts, but on the responses of the Amish community and the other faith-communities that I have observed personally responding in the same charitable manner.

My point? Good can triumph over evil. Here we have a faith-community that has been attacked...and we can learn from their example. They have put their faith into real action. So must we all--at least those of us who professs faith of some kind. Greater is He who is within us than in those who are sick, consumed by evil, or possessed.

I am only sorry that, given our lust for the "news," cameras have intruded onto this quiet, faithful, peace-loving, private faith community with our helicpoters and news reporters. And yet, all of us who profess to some faith have the opportunity through this intrusion to see for ourselves sincere, simple faith at work. And this is an unwanted and tragic blessing for us all.

[NovaPacifica]

Quote: PHILADELPHIA, Pennsylvania (Reuters) -- One of the girls who died in Pennsylvania's Amish schoolhouse massacre asked the killer to shoot her first in an apparent bid to save the younger girls, a woman who spoke to the victim's family said Friday.

Article - CNN

All, I can say is ... wow. Speechless....