Political Crossfire Forums

The Grandmaster · Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:39 am Post subject: More Banning

Well here is the article.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061002/bs_nm/leisure_partygaming_dc

Article wrote: Online gambling firms faced their biggest-ever crisis on Monday after U.S. Congress passed legislation to end Internet gaming there, threatening jobs and wiping 3.5 billion pounds ($6.5 billion) off company values.
......

The House of Representatives and Senate unexpectedly approved a bill early on Saturday that would make it illegal for banks and credit-card companies to make payments to online gambling sites.

The measure was sent to President George W. Bush to sign into law, which most analysts see as a certainty.

"We believe that this will have a very material impact on the long-term prospects of online gambling, and in particular poker," said analyst Julian Easthope at UBS. "This will lead to a rapid decline in the use of online poker sites."

I don't nessesarily blame a Republican Administration for this, because many factors could be in place I am not aware of, but I do blame a seeminly more and more prudish tendancy of lawmakers to control how we can live our lives.

Congrats everyone! More of our tax money going to taking things away from us!

I was going to bet on the Ultimate Fights soon. I don't know if it possible now. If some people want to bet their hard earned money, and not hurt a single damn person, we should be able to.

Why is there so much concern over taking things like this away when we could work on so much more important things?

I found a new article as well. More GOP legislation wanting to take things away from us. Thanks guys...

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/techpolicy/2006-09-30-web-gambling_x.htm

micfranklin · Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 2:14 pm Post subject:

Well, there goes another bit of our freedom. And seriously, why does it matter that online gambling is a problem: its not like anyone is physically hurt from this.

njlemire87 · Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 2:19 pm Post subject:

micfranklin wrote: Well, there goes another bit of our freedom. And seriously, why does it matter that online gambling is a problem: its not like anyone is physically hurt from this.

Have you ever known anyone in the depths of a gambling addiction? No money, lose their homes, family, lif, commit sucide... but the actual transfer of money does nothing...

The Grandmaster · Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 4:24 pm Post subject:

njlemire87 wrote: micfranklin wrote: Well, there goes another bit of our freedom. And seriously, why does it matter that online gambling is a problem: its not like anyone is physically hurt from this.

Have you ever known anyone in the depths of a gambling addiction? No money, lose their homes, family, lif, commit sucide... but the actual transfer of money does nothing...

Err....and their inability to be responsible for their own actions and control their own faculties like adults in my fault, how??

mendosan · Joined: 02 May 2006 Posts: 2693

Don't worry you can still use online lottery and horse racing because there controlled by US operators and not foreign operators. Not very free market of the Admin.

WTO sets deadline for US to obey net gambling ruling

Winchester · Joined: 23 Aug 2005 Posts: 7553 Location: Montana

The Grandmaster wrote: njlemire87 wrote: micfranklin wrote: Well, there goes another bit of our freedom. And seriously, why does it matter that online gambling is a problem: its not like anyone is physically hurt from this.

Have you ever known anyone in the depths of a gambling addiction? No money, lose their homes, family, lif, commit sucide... but the actual transfer of money does nothing...

Err....and their inability to be responsible for their own actions and control their own faculties like adults in my fault, how??

Exactly, the government needs to get out of the Nanny business. Why should I be forced to give up my freedoms because a certain percentage of the population is susceptible to various addictions.

I'm not quite as heartless as I sound regarding other peoples problems, but there are better ways to help them than curbing responsible citizen's freedoms.

Winchester · Joined: 23 Aug 2005 Posts: 7553 Location: Montana

mendosan wrote: Don't worry you can still use online lottery and horse racing because there controlled by US operators and not foreign operators. Not very free market of the Admin.

WTO sets deadline for US to obey net gambling ruling

Lottery and horse races suck, too random to be any fun. Poker on the other hand is one of the few gambling games where the more skill a player has, the more he/she will profit from the game.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Quote: If some people want to bet their hard earned money, and not hurt a single damn person, we should be able to.

The problem is that they lose everything and then go on welfare. :lol:

Winchester · Joined: 23 Aug 2005 Posts: 7553 Location: Montana

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: If some people want to bet their hard earned money, and not hurt a single damn person, we should be able to.

The problem is that they lose everything and then go on welfare. :lol:

Easy solution to that problem.

TheMadHatter · Joined: 16 May 2006 Posts: 49

America is the 14 year old little girl of the world. Censorship is rampant to protect it from older, maturer nations. Gambaling, and other such things will be blocked for a long time to come.

jimmyz · Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 6:06 pm Post subject:

Look back into 19th century history everyone...Gambling was everywhere then it was slowly legislated into smokey backrooms then slowly came back into vogue like we see today.The cycle predicts more and more control and eventual legislation against it.

Look at who is losing with on-line gaming.Those corporations are the backers of this law Thanks Ballys,Harras,MGM,and the rest.

history link - Blakely, G. Robert, et al, The Development of the Law of Gambling, 1776-1976 , Las Vegas , NV : University of Nevada , Las Vegas , May 1977.

David · Joined: 28 Dec 2003 Posts: 12385 Location: Louisiana

jimmyz wrote:
Look at who is losing with on-line gaming.Those corporations are the backers of this law Thanks Ballys,Harras,MGM,and the rest.

history link - Blakely, G. Robert, et al, The Development of the Law of Gambling, 1776-1976 , Las Vegas , NV : University of Nevada , Las Vegas , May 1977.

It's not just those.The government can't tax that overseas money so they're losing all that revenue.

Green · Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 11:26 pm Post subject:

Winchester wrote: mendosan wrote: Don't worry you can still use online lottery and horse racing because there controlled by US operators and not foreign operators. Not very free market of the Admin.

WTO sets deadline for US to obey net gambling ruling

Lottery and horse races suck, too random to be any fun. Poker on the other hand is one of the few gambling games where the more skill a player has, the more he/she will profit from the game.

I play poker on my DS, I am better than anybody in the family when we bring out the actual chips and cards.

00timh · Joined: 08 Nov 2004 Posts: 13037 Location: upstate NY

Currently the legislation pending being signed into law is somewhat ambiguous. It appears there couls still be ways for people to play on online gambling sites by using neteller or some other foreign money transfer method.

This is one of those things that cannot be put on a Republican or democrat blame deal as both sides of the isle seem equally for this legislation.

I am waiting to see exactly how this plays out before I react to this. I do not like to overall idea of this bill. If it is simply a matter of tightening up credit card and bank transactions while that is bad enough, so long as we are still allowed to play on these sights using other methods of transactions.

Understandably there is a lot of panic going on in the online poker community. I am reserving reactions to this until it becomes clear as to the exact ramifications of this bill. Poker has exploded worldwide. It is on TV practically 24/7 and the online sites are constantly advertising and sponsering these events. There is A LOT of money here that will be potentially effected because of this. Money has a mysterious way of changing peoples opinions and the laws written.

jimmyz · Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:04 pm Post subject:

David wrote: jimmyz wrote:
Look at who is losing with on-line gaming.Those corporations are the backers of this law Thanks Ballys,Harras,MGM,and the rest.

history link - Blakely, G. Robert, et al, The Development of the Law of Gambling, 1776-1976 , Las Vegas , NV : University of Nevada , Las Vegas , May 1977.

It's not just those.The government can't tax that overseas money so they're losing all that revenue.

I don't know..An owner of a UK based on-line gambling sight was arrested on a federal warrant a few weeks back.Part of the indictment was for non-payment of excise taxes.
http://www.marketwatch.com/News/Story/6M4b3GZNCg0pFfJ41WH8N8Z?siteid=bizjournal&dist=TNMostMailed

Does any one know what "excise taxes" are?It seems there is a method for the Feds to garner some kind of tax on wagers on-line already.

Kilo Tango · Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 9325 Location: D.C.

The reasoning behind this is economic as much as it is moral. The government wants to keep gambling here so they can tax it. If everyone stays home and gambles online it takes away from legalized gambling. If anything, there has been an increase in gambling in the U.S. My state, PA, recently passed legislation permitting casinos and slots.

Actually, wasn't online gambling already illegal?

Winchester · Joined: 23 Aug 2005 Posts: 7553 Location: Montana

jimmyz wrote: Does any one know what "excise taxes" are?It seems there is a method for the Feds to garner some kind of tax on wagers on-line already.

I'm pretty sure there is no federal excise tax for gambling. State taxes are an entirely different matter.

In Montana, owners of poker/keno machines must pay an excise tax of 15% of the net payouts plus licensing fees. We have a limit of 20 machines per license. However it is not uncommon for owners of these machines to clear $200,000 - $400,000 per year on 20 machines ($10,000-$20,000 gross profit/machine). I do not know what the rates are for live poker and keno in our state is though. I would guess that 10-15% of our city government's total budget is funded with this tax just from their cut of the 15% tax. The state gets the lion's share of the 15%.

Anyway you do the math were talking big bucks and state and local governments have a huge stake in maintaining control over these taxes.

jimmyz · Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 4:04 pm Post subject:

Winchester wrote: jimmyz wrote: Does any one know what "excise taxes" are?It seems there is a method for the Feds to garner some kind of tax on wagers on-line already.

I'm pretty sure there is no federal excise tax for gambling. State taxes are an entirely different matter.

In Montana, owners of poker/keno machines must pay an excise tax of 15% of the net payouts plus licensing fees. We have a limit of 20 machines per license. However it is not uncommon for owners of these machines to clear $200,000 - $400,000 per year on 20 machines ($10,000-$20,000 gross profit/machine). I do not know what the rates are for live poker and keno in our state is though. I would guess that 10-15% of our city government's total budget is funded with this tax just from their cut of the 15% tax. The state gets the lion's share of the 15%.

Anyway you do the math were talking big bucks and state and local governments have a huge stake in maintaining control over these taxes.

Quote: I'm pretty sure there is no federal excise tax for gambling.

"...The government claims the company's founder, Gary Stephen Kaplan, failed to pay federal excise taxes on $3.3 billion in wagers taken from the United States."

From my link - http://www.marketwatch.com/News/Story/6M4b3GZNCg0pFfJ41WH8N8Z?siteid=bizjournal&dist=TNMostMailed

So why is Washington legislating this obvious revenue stream out of existence?

jimmyz · Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 4:10 pm Post subject:

Kilo Tango wrote:

Actually, wasn't online gambling already illegal?

I think on-line gambling within the US is illegal but off-shore sites got around this by remaining off-shore.

Look at what PokerStars does.They have "free" on-line poker where no money changes hands at PokerStars.net.But you can play poker for real money at PokerStars.com.Same logo and graphics but for the .net vs .com...Tricky to say the least.

Winchester · Joined: 23 Aug 2005 Posts: 7553 Location: Montana

jimmyz wrote:

winchester wrote: I'm pretty sure there is no federal excise tax for gambling.

"...The government claims the company's founder, Gary Stephen Kaplan, failed to pay federal excise taxes on $3.3 billion in wagers taken from the United States."

From my link - http://www.marketwatch.com/News/Story/6M4b3GZNCg0pFfJ41WH8N8Z?siteid=bizjournal&dist=TNMostMailed

I see the diff. I was talking about gambling soley in-state, whereas this is talking interstate and international gambling. So if the gambling crosses political borders the Feds must take a cut.