Political Crossfire Forums

[datura]

MoscowMatt wrote: datura wrote: MoscowMatt wrote: Slava wrote: Propaganda wrote: Other things that Russia could dow that are not mentioned in this article are:

- Freeze all money transfers from Russia to Georgia. Georgians working in Russia send up to 1.5 billion back home every year.
- Raise gas prices from current discounted at 110 to current market prices
- Cut off electricity that it supplies to some of the regions of Georgia
- Block all produce imports comming from Georgia
Some of this has already been also done. But there's alwyas room for going further should Georgians make us do it. 8:)

I find it interesting that Russia is against sanctions on Iran yet has been quick to slap them on Georgia!!

Whilst I must say I feel they have some justification for their actions on Georgia I am curious as to why they oppose such measures for Iran!

Yet another short sighted person. i'll answer your question in one short points to make it clear as possible.

1. Iran has done nothing wrong to any other nation or anything illeghaaaal.

Well if you opened YOUR eyes you would see that most of the world want to impose sanctions on Iran because of this **** little thing called a Nuclear programme. Russia opposed this as they reckon that sanctions do not work. Yet they are quite happy to use them against Georgia!!!

You could argue that Georgia has done nothing wrong. Any country is entitled to arrest those it considers may be spying.

Still feel free to think Iran are some sort of saintly nation, the rest of us don't have our heads in the sand!! :lol:

hey Matt, i was never in thought that Georgia has done wrong, i agree with you that they are with in rights to arrest anyone they choose to, but why have chosen Irn to compare them against.

you full well know that even though the west have profound and disturbing pre conceptions about Iran and its nuclear program that nothing has been proven and that it takes many years to obtain nuclear warheads, what about Israel? where is the outcry from the west over its nuclear weapons?

[MoscowMatt]

datura wrote: MoscowMatt wrote: datura wrote: MoscowMatt wrote: Slava wrote: Propaganda wrote: Other things that Russia could dow that are not mentioned in this article are:

- Freeze all money transfers from Russia to Georgia. Georgians working in Russia send up to 1.5 billion back home every year.
- Raise gas prices from current discounted at 110 to current market prices
- Cut off electricity that it supplies to some of the regions of Georgia
- Block all produce imports comming from Georgia
Some of this has already been also done. But there's alwyas room for going further should Georgians make us do it. 8:)

I find it interesting that Russia is against sanctions on Iran yet has been quick to slap them on Georgia!!

Whilst I must say I feel they have some justification for their actions on Georgia I am curious as to why they oppose such measures for Iran!

Yet another short sighted person. i'll answer your question in one short points to make it clear as possible.

1. Iran has done nothing wrong to any other nation or anything illeghaaaal.

Well if you opened YOUR eyes you would see that most of the world want to impose sanctions on Iran because of this **** little thing called a Nuclear programme. Russia opposed this as they reckon that sanctions do not work. Yet they are quite happy to use them against Georgia!!!

You could argue that Georgia has done nothing wrong. Any country is entitled to arrest those it considers may be spying.

Still feel free to think Iran are some sort of saintly nation, the rest of us don't have our heads in the sand!! :lol:

hey Matt, i was never in thought that Georgia has done wrong, i agree with you that they are with in rights to arrest anyone they choose to, but why have chosen Irn to compare them against.

you full well know that even though the west have profound and disturbing pre conceptions about Iran and its nuclear program that nothing has been proven and that it takes many years to obtain nuclear warheads, what about Israel? where is the outcry from the west over its nuclear weapons?

The issue I'm getting at is the effectivness of sanctions. In relation to Iran Russia said that sanctions do not work.In relation to Georgia, Russia is using sanctions!!

I'm not discussing the right's and wrongs of the countries named just merely the Russian approach to sanctions!!

In a nutshell what I'm saying is why are they using sanctions against Georgia having earlier stated to the world that the believe using them do not solve a crisis! Would you not agree that it is a little odd?

The simple reason the West is not worried about Nuclear weapons of Israel is that they are not pointing in our direction nor are ever likely to!!

[datura]

When i look at the mideast i see only one bully, only one illegal occupier, only one government that makes war off the cuff, only one present and clear danger to stability in the region and it's not Iran.

if UK attacks Iran in the next 3 years then the whole region is fcuked not just Iraq, because Iran for sure will strike at UK military inside Iraq and probably Afghanistan. easy targets.

[MoscowMatt]

datura wrote: When i look at the mideast i see only one bully, only one illegal occupier, only one government that makes war off the cuff, only one present and clear danger to stability in the region and it's not Iran.

if UK attacks Iran in the next 3 years then the whole region is fcuked not just Iraq, because Iran for sure will strike at UK military inside Iraq and probably Afghanistan. easy targets.

:bang: blinkin 'ell you are hard work. Look I'll make it plain and clear. Most of Europe NOT just the UK want sanctions. I'm not interested in discussing whether Iran should be facing them or not because the fact is that they are, so can we please bloody well concentrate on that for the purpose of my questioning Russia saying diplomacy not sanctions should be used to handle Iran whereas they are using sanctions not diplomacy to handle Georgia who I suppose for your sake you could say have like Iran done nothing wrong!

Got it??? Maybe!!! Now perhaps without mentioning Iran and I know that's going to be hard for you can you please explain why the Russians appear to be exhibiting double standards in the dealing with a crisis?

[datura]

MoscowMatt wrote: Got it??? Maybe!!! Now perhaps without mentioning Iran and I know that's going to be hard for you can you please explain why the Russians appear to be exhibiting double standards in the dealing with a crisis?

sure, it's called national interest.

America does it when defending Israel even when it's in the wrong, same thing just the other way around.

infact all the major powers do it.

[Slava]

MoscowMatt wrote: I find it interesting that Russia is against sanctions on Iran yet has been quick to slap them on Georgia!!

Whilst I must say I feel they have some justification for their actions on Georgia I am curious as to why they oppose such measures for Iran!
The US and the UK already have sanctions against Iran or do they not? As for Russia introducing sanctions against Georgia, this is (in the nutshell)because (1) Georgia has broken the internationally recognised agreements on Abkhazia and South Ossetia and (2) thus put in danger lives of Russian citizens living in those two territories.

As far as I can see, neither of these can be applied to Iran. Let alone literally beating up American or British soldiers on duty and other ugly scenes, which would be simply unimaginable (if we were speaking about the US).

[MoscowMatt]

Slava wrote: MoscowMatt wrote: I find it interesting that Russia is against sanctions on Iran yet has been quick to slap them on Georgia!!

Whilst I must say I feel they have some justification for their actions on Georgia I am curious as to why they oppose such measures for Iran!
The US and the UK already have sanctions against Iran or do they not? As for Russia introducing sanctions against Georgia, this is (in the nutshell)because (1) Georgia has broken the internationally recognised agreements on Abkhazia and South Ossetia and (2) thus put in danger lives of Russian citizens living in those two territories.

As far as I can see, neither of these can be applied to Iran. Let alone literally beating up American or British soldiers on duty and other ugly scenes, which would be simply unimaginable (if we were speaking about the US).

There are no sanctions against Iran as far as I am aware, although the UK, US and other European countries do want them. The stumbling block is Russia and China saying sanctions don't work. China oppose it because apparently they rely to much on Iranian Oil and I guess financial reasons apply to Russia as well. Irrespective of what Georgia have done if Russia is saying that sanctions don't work and we should be using diplomacy, why did they not take that course over Georgia? I'm not saying I disagree with what they've done just wondering why they expect the West to take a different tack?

[Slava]

MoscowMatt wrote: There are no sanctions against Iran as far as I am aware, although the UK, US and other European countries do want them. The stumbling block is Russia and China saying sanctions don't work. China oppose it because apparently they rely to much on Iranian Oil and I guess financial reasons apply to Russia as well. Irrespective of what Georgia have done if Russia is saying that sanctions don't work and we should be using diplomacy, why did they not take that course over Georgia? I'm not saying I disagree with what they've done just wondering why they expect the West to take a different tack?
Are you seriosly not aware that "Iran...remains subject to US economic sanctions" (https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ir.html)? Neither are there diplomatic ties between the two countries. As I understand, the same applies to the UK. For example, if you were an Iranian and wanted to come to the Uk, you'd have to go to Cyprus to apply for entry visa there.

Now, how Russia is different in that respect? It doesn't call for UN sanctions against Georgia (like the US and the UK do for Iran). It just imposed its own sanctions against Georgia (like the US and the UK did against Iran long time ago). By the way, unlike the US and the UK Russia didn't cut diplomatic or trade links with Georgia. Russia didn't even impose a blockade of the Israeli style (on Lebanon).

On top of that I can also put a question to you: if US and UK consider their own sanctions against Iran necessary and effective, why do they call for lifting Russia’s sanctions against Georgia?

[MoscowMatt]

Slava wrote: MoscowMatt wrote: There are no sanctions against Iran as far as I am aware, although the UK, US and other European countries do want them. The stumbling block is Russia and China saying sanctions don't work. China oppose it because apparently they rely to much on Iranian Oil and I guess financial reasons apply to Russia as well. Irrespective of what Georgia have done if Russia is saying that sanctions don't work and we should be using diplomacy, why did they not take that course over Georgia? I'm not saying I disagree with what they've done just wondering why they expect the West to take a different tack?
Are you seriosly not aware that "Iran...remains subject to US economic sanctions" (https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ir.html)? Neither are there diplomatic ties between the two countries. As I understand, the same applies to the UK. For example, if you were an Iranian and wanted to come to the Uk, you'd have to go to Cyprus to apply for entry visa there.

Now, how Russia is different in that respect? It doesn't call for UN sanctions against Georgia (like the US and the UK do for Iran). It just imposed its own sanctions against Georgia (like the US and the UK did against Iran long time ago). By the way, unlike the US and the UK Russia didn't cut diplomatic or trade links with Georgia. Russia didn't even impose a blockade of the Israeli style (on Lebanon).

On top of that I can also put a question to you: if US and UK consider their own sanctions against Iran necessary and effective, why do they call for lifting Russia’s sanctions against Georgia?

Yes I am aware of that. I meant UN sanctions! But you are missing the point which is Russia has rejected UN sanctions against Iran on the basis that they reckon that "sanctions do not work", yet they are now using sanctions themselves!! Can you see where I am coming from? I'm not talking about whether they are right or wrong to do so, just wondering why they are using a measure that they have in the past said does not work!!

As for the question you ask, well that is a good point. I guess it's the old tit for tat politics. Russia says no to sanctions on Iran so UK/US can now get their own back by saying sanctions against Georgia should be lifted.
All very childish of course!!

[Slava]

MoscowMatt wrote: Yes I am aware of that. I meant UN sanctions! But you are missing the point which is Russia has rejected UN sanctions against Iran on the basis that they reckon that "sanctions do not work", yet they are now using sanctions themselves!! Can you see where I am coming from? I'm not talking about whether they are right or wrong to do so, just wondering why they are using a measure that they have in the past said does not work!!
As for the question you ask, well that is a good point. I guess it's the old tit for tat politics. Russia says no to sanctions on Iran so UK/US can now get their own back by saying sanctions against Georgia should be lifted.
All very childish of course!!
In a nutshell, I think Russia does this because (1) this is in its national interests and (2) other major countries in the world do the same.

[The_Right_Honourable]

Generally aren't people suspected of spying simply expelled?

It seems an odd action to take...

But who trusts Russia? There heading back to their old ways (tho how much they ever deviated from par is a good question) sadly...

[battleax86]

Seems to be pretty clear-cut situation. Georgia believes two Russian soldiers are spying and arrests them. Russia goes ape s**t over this tiny former Soviet backwater daring to impune their prestige and threatens to cut them off like a father whose son has just given him the finger. Imperialist Russia is back...

[Slava]

battleax86 wrote: Seems to be pretty clear-cut situation. Georgia believes two Russian soldiers are spying and arrests them. Russia goes ape s**t over this tiny former Soviet backwater daring to impune their prestige and threatens to cut them off like a father whose son has just given him the finger. Imperialist Russia is back...
Would the US react any differently if it were treated like Georgia treats Russia?

[MoscowMatt]

Slava wrote: battleax86 wrote: Seems to be pretty clear-cut situation. Georgia believes two Russian soldiers are spying and arrests them. Russia goes ape s**t over this tiny former Soviet backwater daring to impune their prestige and threatens to cut them off like a father whose son has just given him the finger. Imperialist Russia is back...
Would the US react any differently if it were treated like Georgia treats Russia?

Yes the US would react differently!!! They'd probably invade the place!!! :lol: :lol:

[battleax86]

Slava wrote: battleax86 wrote: Seems to be pretty clear-cut situation. Georgia believes two Russian soldiers are spying and arrests them. Russia goes ape s**t over this tiny former Soviet backwater daring to impune their prestige and threatens to cut them off like a father whose son has just given him the finger. Imperialist Russia is back...
Would the US react any differently if it were treated like Georgia treats Russia?
Yes. We generally don't push for sanctions unless a nation threatens our security by developing nuclear weapons or invading other countries...

[Slava]

battleax86 wrote: Slava wrote: battleax86 wrote: Seems to be pretty clear-cut situation. Georgia believes two Russian soldiers are spying and arrests them. Russia goes ape s**t over this tiny former Soviet backwater daring to impune their prestige and threatens to cut them off like a father whose son has just given him the finger. Imperialist Russia is back...
Would the US react any differently if it were treated like Georgia treats Russia?
Yes. We generally don't push for sanctions unless a nation threatens our security by developing nuclear weapons or invading other countries...
Your national security is threatened by a nation, which invades another country (not yours)? This is a rather broad definition of national security, don't you think? As for sanctions, we generally also don't push for them for whatever reason. Georgia is a special case - an openly hostile towrads Russia country, which keeps breaking international agreements.

[battleax86]

Slava wrote: battleax86 wrote: Slava wrote: battleax86 wrote: Seems to be pretty clear-cut situation. Georgia believes two Russian soldiers are spying and arrests them. Russia goes ape s**t over this tiny former Soviet backwater daring to impune their prestige and threatens to cut them off like a father whose son has just given him the finger. Imperialist Russia is back...
Would the US react any differently if it were treated like Georgia treats Russia?
Yes. We generally don't push for sanctions unless a nation threatens our security by developing nuclear weapons or invading other countries...
Your national security is threatened by a nation, which invades another country (not yours)? This is a rather broad definition of national security, don't you think?
As a general definition, yes, but not the way that we have applied it. For example, when Iraq invaded Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, that was a threat to our national security because of our relationship with those two countries.

Slava wrote: As for sanctions, we generally also don't push for them for whatever reason. Georgia is a special case - an openly hostile towrads Russia country, which keeps breaking international agreements.
They're breaking international agreements? Why are Russian troops still in Georgia, seven years after Russia agreed to remove them? Also, do you think that Russian support for the Abkhazians, Ajarians, or South Ossetians has anything to do with the strained relations between Russia and Georgia?

At any rate, none of this justifies Russian sanctions because Georgia arrested two Russian soldiers who were spying on them.

[Slava]

battleax86 wrote:
As a general definition, yes, but not the way that we have applied it. For example, when Iraq invaded Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, that was a threat to our national security because of our relationship with those two countries.
Iraq never invaded Saudi Arabia, neither did it invade Kuwait in 2003.

Quote: Slava wrote: As for sanctions, we generally also don't push for them for whatever reason. Georgia is a special case - an openly hostile towrads Russia country, which keeps breaking international agreements.
They're breaking international agreements? Why are Russian troops still in Georgia, seven years after Russia agreed to remove them? Also, do you think that Russian support for the Abkhazians, Ajarians, or South Ossetians has anything to do with the strained relations between Russia and Georgia?

At any rate, none of this justifies Russian sanctions because Georgia arrested two Russian soldiers who were spying on them.
Russian troops are still in Georgia because they are due to leave by 2008. The withdrawal goes ahead of schedule. As for Abkhazians and South Ossetians, 90% of them are Russian citizens; plus those two regions have never in histrory been the part of an independent Georgia. They joined the USSR independently, and it was Stalin (who was Georgian) who "attached" them to Georgia.

As for sanctions, Russian top officials have many times reiterated that these sanctions are not specifically in response to the arrest of our 4 officers.

[venator]

Slava wrote: Sorry, but I have to repeat: can you give me a real web-link to a Russian credible media site which would ‘not rule out a possibility of Russia using military force against Georgia.’ (i.e. Russia attacking Georgia).

Sorry, but there are no credible Russian medias anymore ;)

The most recent assasinations speak for themselves...

By the way wazup Slava! long time :-D

[venator]

TheKrava wrote: Slava wrote: Propaganda wrote: Other things that Russia could dow that are not mentioned in this article are:

- Freeze all money transfers from Russia to Georgia. Georgians working in Russia send up to 1.5 billion back home every year.
- Raise gas prices from current discounted at 110 to current market prices
- Cut off electricity that it supplies to some of the regions of Georgia
- Block all produce imports comming from Georgia
Some of this has already been also done. But there's alwyas room for going further should Georgians make us do it. 8:)


Often I do not like what Russians do, but in this case I believe Russians have all the right to do that. Georgia was too damn provocative last couple of years.

Too damn provocative? Interesting. So if u dont want to be a Russian puppet state - then u are provocative. An interesting approach... :-D