Political Crossfire Forums

[TheKrava]

Quote:
MOSCOW, Russia (Reuters) -- Russia warned Georgia on Thursday that it would use every means available to free Russian officers who were detained in Tbilisi on suspicion of spying.

Georgian police and guards on Wednesday surrounded the regional headquarters of Russian troops in Tbilisi, and Georgia said it had arrested four Russian spies.

In Georgia, Rustavi-2 television said two further people had been detained last night on the same charges. But Interior Ministry officials were not available to confirm this.

"We have demanded the immediate release of our citizens and we will achieve this with all the means available to us," Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said, quoted by RIA Novosti news agency.

"This cannot be seen in any other way but as the latest example of an anti-Russian policy," said Lavrov, speaking in Sakhalin in Russia's far east, Interfax reported.

The headquarters controls two Russian bases -- relics of Soviet times -- that still exist in Georgia, but whose withdrawal is under way.

But its presence in the eastern part of the Georgian capital continues to be an irritant for the pro-Western leadership of President Mikhail Saakashvili.

Moscow has watched with dismay as Georgia under Saakashvili has voiced aspirations to join NATO and the European Union.

Georgian Interior Minister Vano Merabishvili said the detained Russian officers were working for Russian military intelligence.

Russian Defence Minister Sergei Ivanov threw his weight behind Lavrov, saying Tbilisi was seeking to provoke Russia with invented accusations. He said Russia's reaction would be "fitting".


http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/09/28/georgia.russia.reut/index.html


Russia and Georgia were very provocative against each other during the last 2 years. Today Russian media does not rule out a possibility of Russia using military force against Georgia.
Also, I do not think that Georgia is innocent too.

What do you think of the issue?

[Slava]

TheKrava wrote: Today Russian media does not rule out a possibility of Russia using military force against Georgia.
Can you give link?
Quote: Also, I do not think that Georgia is innocent too.
I assume Russia being not guilty is out of question altogether by definition?

[TheKrava]

Slava wrote: TheKrava wrote: Today Russian media does not rule out a possibility of Russia using military force against Georgia.
Can you give link?

Quote:
The Federation Council, Russia's senate, also weighed in, saying that Georgia's accusations could "lead to war," according to Interfax.

source: http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/09/29/georgia.russia/index.html
Quote:
Quote: Also, I do not think that Georgia is innocent too.
I assume Russia being not guilty is out of question altogether by definition?

They are attacking Russia too much.

[slitedeviance]

I think following on from the Ukraine Gas friction, it does a good job of showing how Russia can respond to the situation with the seperation of the CCCP bloc.

At a time when Putin is seeking to consolidate his power base, and re-enter international politics based on their natural resource situation, having usurpers such as Georgia is a direct challenge to the authority Russia still seems to desire in Eastern Europe.

I haven't read enough into it to throw down support with anyone, but I'd be interested to see how NATO responds to any military threat or action against Georgia.

[Slava]

TheKrava wrote: The Federation Council, Russia's senate, also weighed in, saying that Georgia's accusations could "lead to war," according to Interfax.
Sorry, but I have to repeat: can you give me a real web-link to a Russian credible media site which would ‘not rule out a possibility of Russia using military force against Georgia.’ (i.e. Russia attacking Georgia).

[TheKrava]

http://www.newsru.com/world/28sep2006/gruziya.html

[sandrodz]

that would be a terrible mistake...

It's not a news any more that Russia is a main culprit of the problems in the region. They have been a main source of instability and warfare on the caucasian ground. Problem is their old "empire" type of politics.


Russia fury over spy arrests

Quote: MOSCOW, Russia (Reuters) -- Russia warned Georgia on Thursday that it would use every means available to free Russian officers who were detained in Tbilisi on suspicion of spying.

Georgian police and guards on Wednesday surrounded the regional headquarters of Russian troops in Tbilisi, and Georgia said it had arrested four Russian spies.

In Georgia, Rustavi-2 television said two further people had been detained last night on the same charges. But Interior Ministry officials were not available to confirm this.

"We have demanded the immediate release of our citizens and we will achieve this with all the means available to us," Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said, quoted by RIA Novosti news agency.

"This cannot be seen in any other way but as the latest example of an anti-Russian policy," said Lavrov, speaking in Sakhalin in Russia's far east, Interfax reported.

The headquarters controls two Russian bases -- relics of Soviet times -- that still exist in Georgia, but whose withdrawal is under way.

But its presence in the eastern part of the Georgian capital continues to be an irritant for the pro-Western leadership of President Mikhail Saakashvili.


Russian Defence Minister Sergei Ivanov threw his weight behind Lavrov, saying Tbilisi was seeking to provoke Russia with invented accusations. He said Russia's reaction would be "fitting".

Russia is preparing itself for military actions, and we hear that from a country which is supposed to keep peace between two confilcting parties. Finally, world can see their true face! Russian soldiers cannot keep peace and cannot be neutral... indeed they are helping separatists to build up military strength and attack Georgian villages. Hundreds of people have been reported killed, sloughtered in the region controlled by separatist militants! WE need to end this! It would be great if we could replace those so called "peace keepers" with really neutral party.

Please, let me know what you think about those issues. Also please be as informative as possible, we need people to know the truth!


http://www.flunkme.com/showthread.php?p=3575#post3575

[sandrodz]

besides everyone knows why russia was so furiouse about Georgia... as you may have heard Georgia wants to integrate into EU and NATO, that's like a nightmare scenario for Russia :)

[Slava]

TheKrava wrote: http://www.newsru.com/world/28sep2006/gruziya.html
I've never heard of this web-site before, and I don't think it can be considered a Russian CNN. It has pretty comprehensive coverage of the events, though. Yet I couldn't find threats of Russia 'using military force' against Georgia. All Russian politicains call for diplomatic, economic and financial sanctions at most.

Here's the latest news from a more respected Russian news agency:
http://en.rian.ru/russia/20060929/54386471.html: Russia has no plans to annex Georgian territory - Ivanov

[sandrodz]

slitedeviance wrote: I think following on from the Ukraine Gas friction, it does a good job of showing how Russia can respond to the situation with the seperation of the CCCP bloc.

At a time when Putin is seeking to consolidate his power base, and re-enter international politics based on their natural resource situation, having usurpers such as Georgia is a direct challenge to the authority Russia still seems to desire in Eastern Europe.

I haven't read enough into it to throw down support with anyone, but I'd be interested to see how NATO responds to any military threat or action against Georgia.
Russia won't dare to use millitary action, I'm sure... that's just stupid. Right now they are in a very bad situation, politically they made a horrible mistake when they moved their diplomats out of the country. Sometimes I think they don't think at all, probably vodka is the culprit ;) j/k

Yes you are correct, Russia has whole Europe under control! since its one of the largets gass importers in the central / eastern Eu. Russia has a significant power, so Eu will not do anything not to distur big bear - in other words they don't care what will happen with Georgia.

But on the other hand, U.S. is openly supporting actions of the Georgian government, this is a significant card in the hands of politicians. Its like a Joker in modern politics. So Russia will continue trying to intimidate Georgian government with fake statements, but in reality won;t do anything.

But, there is another little point that Russian so called analysts didn't get... They are keeping peace between Georgians and separatists, now when they are opposing Georgia too, they cannot keep peace there! That will lead to the replacement of those forces with the really neutral party, UN army for example. So Russia will loose all power and influence on caucasia.

[dreamz]

sandrodz wrote: Russia won't dare to use millitary action, I'm sure...

Russia has enough nuclear power to wipe Europe and America of this rotating ball, but putin is not mad.
the story is interesting and i'v not read enough into it to side with either parties.

[sandrodz]

dreamz wrote: sandrodz wrote: Russia won't dare to use millitary action, I'm sure...

Russia has enough nuclear power to wipe Europe and America of this rotating ball, but putin is not mad.
the story is interesting and i'v not read enough into it to side with either parties.
of course! it can do allot of things, but its not a matter of can... they just won't! They are not crazy :)

[sandrodz]

Just as I said... Russians have a very weak position, they cannot do anything.



US, UK object to Russia's UN proposal on Georgia
Sat 30 Sep 2006 6:01:30 BST

By Evelyn Leopold

UNITED NATIONS, Sept 30 (Reuters) - The United States and Britain have objected to Russia's draft U.N. Security Council statement that would rebuke Georgia's "provocative" actions and its stationing of troops in the breakaway Abkhazia province.

Georgian police and guards on Wednesday surrounded the regional headquarters of Russian troops in Georgia's capital, Tbilisi, and arrested four Russian army intelligence officers on allegations of spying. In turn, Russia began pulling diplomats, military staff and their families from Georgia.

Russia's U.N. Ambassador, Vitaly Churkin, had circulated a draft statement at an emergency session he called on Thursday in hopes of approval on Friday.

But U.S. Ambassador John Bolton told reporters that "we have a number of difficulties with the draft as it's currently written." British Ambassador Emyr Jones Parry said he had made suggestions in an "attempt to put forward a balanced text."

But a Russian diplomat said proposed U.S. changes were unacceptable to Moscow and changed the draft substantially.

The council will continue discussions later, possibly over the weekend, diplomats said.

The Russian statement would express "grave concern" over recent "provocative actions" by Georgia, "leading to a further aggravation of the situation."

It also stresses the need to peacefully settle the dispute over Abkhazia, which has been the source of strife between the two countries since the breakup of the Soviet Union.

Abkhazia won effective independence from Georgia in a 1992-93 war, and Moscow props up the province by paying pensions, issuing Russian passports as well as stationing peacekeepers there along with United Nations observers.

Georgia accuses Russia of backing Abkhaz separatists, which Moscow denies.

Churkin's statement would also urge Georgia to withdraw troops from the Kodori Valley in Abkhazia, in violation of Security Council resolutions, and reconsider plans to declare a new republic there.

Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili on Wednesday went to the Kodori Gorge section of Abkhazia, which is under government control, for a ceremony to rename the area Upper Abkhazia in an effort to assert control.

Georgia's relations with Russia deteriorated dramatically since Saakashvili came to power in the 2003 and launched a drive to join NATO, which irked Moscow.


© Reuters 2006. All Rights Reserved.

[Propaganda]

sandrodz wrote: Just as I said... Russians have a very weak position, they cannot do anything.

Wow, thanks god we have such well informed analysts such as yourslef to tell us how things really are. :clap:

But in reality:

Russia has launched the economic blockade of Georgia. The Russian Federation has already suspended the transport and mail communication with Georgia. In the meantime, the Georgian authorities said that they intended to deliver the four arrested Russian officers to the OSCE.

Furthermore, the unrecognized republic of Abkhazia has cut all negotiations procedures with Georgia until all Georgian military men are withdrawn from Abkhazia’s Kodori Gorge. Another unrecognized republic, South Ossetia, followed Abkhazia’s example and ceased negotiations with Georgia.

Other things that Russia could dow that are not mentioned in this article are:

- Freeze all money transfers from Russia to Georgia. Georgians working in Russia send up to 1.5 billion back home every year.
- Raise gas prices from current discounted at 110 to current market prices
- Cut off electricity that it supplies to some of the regions of Georgia
- Block all produce imports comming from Georgia

[Slava]

Propaganda wrote: Other things that Russia could dow that are not mentioned in this article are:

- Freeze all money transfers from Russia to Georgia. Georgians working in Russia send up to 1.5 billion back home every year.
- Raise gas prices from current discounted at 110 to current market prices
- Cut off electricity that it supplies to some of the regions of Georgia
- Block all produce imports comming from Georgia
Some of this has already been also done. But there's alwyas room for going further should Georgians make us do it. 8:)

[TheKrava]

Slava wrote: Propaganda wrote: Other things that Russia could dow that are not mentioned in this article are:

- Freeze all money transfers from Russia to Georgia. Georgians working in Russia send up to 1.5 billion back home every year.
- Raise gas prices from current discounted at 110 to current market prices
- Cut off electricity that it supplies to some of the regions of Georgia
- Block all produce imports comming from Georgia
Some of this has already been also done. But there's alwyas room for going further should Georgians make us do it. 8:)


Often I do not like what Russians do, but in this case I believe Russians have all the right to do that. Georgia was too damn provocative last couple of years.

[ersoy]

CNN Int. have recently started to show an Armenian Touristic Commercial named "Noah's Route, Your Route". It opens with an image of Ararat Mountain and continues with touristic scenes from Armenia ( a pool, a building, etc). Commercial's title seems to be picked b/o its associations in mind "Noah's Route, Your Route ". Their great politicians think that after watching their commercial, people of the world will think that Ararat Mountain is in or supposed to be in Armenia, not in Turkey. And Armenia will benefit of that misunderstanding in some way; maybe sometime in the future they will give it to Armenians as a Christmas gift maybe...I have never seen and heard something more childish and silly.

Unfortunately dear Armenian friends, Arata Mountain is still in Turkey, despite Armenia's payed commercials. What if a poor guy/gal decides to see "Ararat Mountain" and take a ticket to Armenia and ask their politicians where it was? What will they tell them?

" Take that binoculars and watch"?

Now b/o Georgian-Russian conflict their access to Russia is closed and they are almost under siege by it's Azerbeijan, Georgia and Turkey,

What if things get worse and they need some humanitarian help during next hard winter months? Asking Turkey's help?

We should know that we may always need our neighbor. It is useless to increase tension continuously, especially if you are a small country.

"Thou shall not eat ...t with somebody else's spoon" : Ottoman Proverb

[MoscowMatt]

Slava wrote: Propaganda wrote: Other things that Russia could dow that are not mentioned in this article are:

- Freeze all money transfers from Russia to Georgia. Georgians working in Russia send up to 1.5 billion back home every year.
- Raise gas prices from current discounted at 110 to current market prices
- Cut off electricity that it supplies to some of the regions of Georgia
- Block all produce imports comming from Georgia
Some of this has already been also done. But there's alwyas room for going further should Georgians make us do it. 8:)

I find it interesting that Russia is against sanctions on Iran yet has been quick to slap them on Georgia!!

Whilst I must say I feel they have some justification for their actions on Georgia I am curious as to why they oppose such measures for Iran!

[datura]

MoscowMatt wrote: Slava wrote: Propaganda wrote: Other things that Russia could dow that are not mentioned in this article are:

- Freeze all money transfers from Russia to Georgia. Georgians working in Russia send up to 1.5 billion back home every year.
- Raise gas prices from current discounted at 110 to current market prices
- Cut off electricity that it supplies to some of the regions of Georgia
- Block all produce imports comming from Georgia
Some of this has already been also done. But there's alwyas room for going further should Georgians make us do it. 8:)

I find it interesting that Russia is against sanctions on Iran yet has been quick to slap them on Georgia!!

Whilst I must say I feel they have some justification for their actions on Georgia I am curious as to why they oppose such measures for Iran!

Yet another short sighted person. i'll answer your question in one short points to make it clear as possible.

1. Iran has done nothing wrong to any other nation or anything illeghaaaal.

[MoscowMatt]

datura wrote: MoscowMatt wrote: Slava wrote: Propaganda wrote: Other things that Russia could dow that are not mentioned in this article are:

- Freeze all money transfers from Russia to Georgia. Georgians working in Russia send up to 1.5 billion back home every year.
- Raise gas prices from current discounted at 110 to current market prices
- Cut off electricity that it supplies to some of the regions of Georgia
- Block all produce imports comming from Georgia
Some of this has already been also done. But there's alwyas room for going further should Georgians make us do it. 8:)

I find it interesting that Russia is against sanctions on Iran yet has been quick to slap them on Georgia!!

Whilst I must say I feel they have some justification for their actions on Georgia I am curious as to why they oppose such measures for Iran!

Yet another short sighted person. i'll answer your question in one short points to make it clear as possible.

1. Iran has done nothing wrong to any other nation or anything illeghaaaal.

Well if you opened YOUR eyes you would see that most of the world want to impose sanctions on Iran because of this **** little thing called a Nuclear programme. Russia opposed this as they reckon that sanctions do not work. Yet they are quite happy to use them against Georgia!!!

You could argue that Georgia has done nothing wrong. Any country is entitled to arrest those it considers may be spying.

Still feel free to think Iran are some sort of saintly nation, the rest of us don't have our heads in the sand!! :lol: