Political Crossfire Forums

Todd D. · Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:46 am Post subject:

Quote: Well here we go,circular logic.

They did it because they are islamic extremist,but they don't really believe in their religion.Gambleing,pornos,drinking,strip clubs.
I must have missed the part where you stated that OBL visited strip clubs and casinos. If you are referring to Atta and his crew, then this is to be expected, they were members of Al Takfir, after all. In case you weren't aware, it is admitted and accepted that Al Takfir use "Americanization" techniques to better "blend in" with culture, up to and including eating non-kosher foods, drinking, etc.

Mighty Oak · Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:55 am Post subject:

Todd D. wrote: Quote: Well here we go,circular logic.

They did it because they are islamic extremist,but they don't really believe in their religion.Gambleing,pornos,drinking,strip clubs.
I must have missed the part where you stated that OBL visited strip clubs and casinos. If you are referring to Atta and his crew, then this is to be expected, they were members of Al Takfir, after all. In case you weren't aware, it is admitted and accepted that Al Takfir use "Americanization" techniques to better "blend in" with culture, up to and including eating non-kosher foods, drinking, etc. Yes I was refering to Atta and such.So now I guess it is ok,as long as you have Allah's blessing,to be a Drinking,gambleing,strip club going jihadist.Let me ask you this,what was the point the night before or even the week before 911 to go out drinking and clubbing?If you can't see the hypocracy in this concept that you have come up with then I am afraid you never will.

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

Todd D. wrote: Quote: Well here we go,circular logic.

They did it because they are islamic extremist,but they don't really believe in their religion.Gambleing,pornos,drinking,strip clubs.
I must have missed the part where you stated that OBL visited strip clubs and casinos. If you are referring to Atta and his crew, then this is to be expected, they were members of Al Takfir, after all. In case you weren't aware, it is admitted and accepted that Al Takfir use "Americanization" techniques to better "blend in" with culture, up to and including eating non-kosher foods, drinking, etc.
Atta and his crew didn't exactly "blend in".. they went way, way out of their way to be noticed and remember, esp in the days leading up the attacks, so that when the media swooped in after the attacks they would be able to show his mug shot to various people and they'd be able to say "heeey! Yeah! I know that guy! He was in here just last week raising a ruckus.."

In the intelligence community, this is referred to as "creating a legend", and to my mind is just further confirmation that Atta was a 100% CIA asset.. He certainly acted and behaved 100% according to the CIA playbook..

NAB · Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:02 pm Post subject:

Mighty Oak wrote: Todd D. wrote: Quote: Well here we go,circular logic.

They did it because they are islamic extremist,but they don't really believe in their religion.Gambleing,pornos,drinking,strip clubs.
I must have missed the part where you stated that OBL visited strip clubs and casinos. If you are referring to Atta and his crew, then this is to be expected, they were members of Al Takfir, after all. In case you weren't aware, it is admitted and accepted that Al Takfir use "Americanization" techniques to better "blend in" with culture, up to and including eating non-kosher foods, drinking, etc. Yes I was refering to Atta and such.So now I guess it is ok,as long as you have Allah's blessing,to be a Drinking,gambleing,strip club going jihadist.Let me ask you this,what was the point the night before or even the week before 911 to go out drinking and clubbing?If you can't see the hypocracy in this concept that you have come up with then I am afraid you never will.

When dealing with "humans" there is always a level of hypocrisy. These guys knew they were going out, so why wouldn't they sow a few wild oats beforehand? They obviously felt the act they were going to pull off by martyring themselves was going to absolve them of any "minor" drinking or strip club offense.

People of ALL religions can be hypocrites towards their faiths and can cherry pick when it suits them. Do you think these guys are any different? Their basic tenet of murder and mayhem alone goes against the very basis of their religion, YET they found a convenient way around that one.

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

NAB wrote: Mighty Oak wrote: Todd D. wrote: Quote: Well here we go,circular logic.

They did it because they are islamic extremist,but they don't really believe in their religion.Gambleing,pornos,drinking,strip clubs.
I must have missed the part where you stated that OBL visited strip clubs and casinos. If you are referring to Atta and his crew, then this is to be expected, they were members of Al Takfir, after all. In case you weren't aware, it is admitted and accepted that Al Takfir use "Americanization" techniques to better "blend in" with culture, up to and including eating non-kosher foods, drinking, etc. Yes I was refering to Atta and such.So now I guess it is ok,as long as you have Allah's blessing,to be a Drinking,gambleing,strip club going jihadist.Let me ask you this,what was the point the night before or even the week before 911 to go out drinking and clubbing?If you can't see the hypocracy in this concept that you have come up with then I am afraid you never will.

When dealing with "humans" there is always a level of hypocrisy. These guys knew they were going out, so why wouldn't they sow a few wild oats beforehand? They obviously felt the act they were going to pull off by martyring themselves was going to absolve them of any "minor" drinking or strip club offense.

People of ALL religions can be hypocrites towards their faiths and can cherry pick when it suits them. Do you think these guys are any different? Their basic tenet of murder and mayhem alone goes against the very basis of their religion, YET they found a convenient way around that one.
Again, it's more than foolish to apply your patterns of thinking and making value judgments to Mohammed Atta and the CIA. The way they think, operate and behave has no connection whatsoever w/ how you might think, operate and behave.

Just b/c you're a hypocrite doesn't mean that they're necessarily hypocrites.

See earlier posts for more details.

Mighty Oak · Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:13 pm Post subject:

NAB wrote: Mighty Oak wrote: Todd D. wrote: Quote: Well here we go,circular logic.

They did it because they are islamic extremist,but they don't really believe in their religion.Gambleing,pornos,drinking,strip clubs.
I must have missed the part where you stated that OBL visited strip clubs and casinos. If you are referring to Atta and his crew, then this is to be expected, they were members of Al Takfir, after all. In case you weren't aware, it is admitted and accepted that Al Takfir use "Americanization" techniques to better "blend in" with culture, up to and including eating non-kosher foods, drinking, etc. Yes I was refering to Atta and such.So now I guess it is ok,as long as you have Allah's blessing,to be a Drinking,gambleing,strip club going jihadist.Let me ask you this,what was the point the night before or even the week before 911 to go out drinking and clubbing?If you can't see the hypocracy in this concept that you have come up with then I am afraid you never will.

When dealing with "humans" there is always a level of hypocrisy. These guys knew they were going out, so why wouldn't they sow a few wild oats beforehand? They obviously felt the act they were going to pull off by martyring themselves was going to absolve them of any "minor" drinking or strip club offense.

People of ALL religions can be hypocrites towards their faiths and can cherry pick when it suits them. Do you think these guys are any different? Their basic tenet of murder and mayhem alone goes against the very basis of their religion, YET they found a convenient way around that one. I believe you missed my point.You don't go kill yourself and many others because of your cause and disregard your reason for doing it in the first place.

Quote: Atta and his crew didn't exactly "blend in".. they went way, way out of their way to be noticed and remember, esp in the days leading up the attacks, so that when the media swooped in after the attacks they would be able to show his mug shot to various people and they'd be able to say "heeey! Yeah! I know that guy! He was in here just last week raising a ruckus.."

In the intelligence community, this is referred to as "creating a legend", and to my mind is just further confirmation that Atta was a 100% CIA asset.. He certainly acted and behaved 100% according to the CIA playbook.. Yes,I would agree with you.I was trying,in a round about way,to show how this logic is illogical

NAB · Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:18 pm Post subject:

psholtz wrote: NAB wrote: Mighty Oak wrote: Todd D. wrote: Quote: Well here we go,circular logic.

They did it because they are islamic extremist,but they don't really believe in their religion.Gambleing,pornos,drinking,strip clubs.
I must have missed the part where you stated that OBL visited strip clubs and casinos. If you are referring to Atta and his crew, then this is to be expected, they were members of Al Takfir, after all. In case you weren't aware, it is admitted and accepted that Al Takfir use "Americanization" techniques to better "blend in" with culture, up to and including eating non-kosher foods, drinking, etc. Yes I was refering to Atta and such.So now I guess it is ok,as long as you have Allah's blessing,to be a Drinking,gambleing,strip club going jihadist.Let me ask you this,what was the point the night before or even the week before 911 to go out drinking and clubbing?If you can't see the hypocracy in this concept that you have come up with then I am afraid you never will.

When dealing with "humans" there is always a level of hypocrisy. These guys knew they were going out, so why wouldn't they sow a few wild oats beforehand? They obviously felt the act they were going to pull off by martyring themselves was going to absolve them of any "minor" drinking or strip club offense.

People of ALL religions can be hypocrites towards their faiths and can cherry pick when it suits them. Do you think these guys are any different? Their basic tenet of murder and mayhem alone goes against the very basis of their religion, YET they found a convenient way around that one.
Again, it's more than foolish to apply your patterns of thinking and making value judgments to Mohammed Atta and the CIA. The way they think, operate and behave has no connection whatsoever w/ how you might think, operate and behave.

Just b/c you're a hypocrite doesn't mean that they're necessarily hypocrites.

See earlier posts for more details.

Sigh........yes I know, they are Satan worshippers or somesuch with seemingly superhuman skills beyond the understanding of the average human being. :?

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

NAB wrote: Sigh........yes I know, they are Satan worshippers or somesuch with seemingly superhuman skills beyond the understanding of the average human being. :?
I don't know that Atta is a Satan worshipper..

He just seems to be a convinient patsie/CIA asset..

There are people in high levels of power who are Satanists, however.

NAB · Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:32 pm Post subject:

psholtz wrote: NAB wrote: Sigh........yes I know, they are Satan worshippers or somesuch with seemingly superhuman skills beyond the understanding of the average human being. :?
I don't know that Atta is a Satan worshipper..

He just seems to be a convinient patsie/CIA asset..

There are people in high levels of power who are Satanists, however.

Yes I know he seems like a convenient asset to you, as did all of the other hijackers as well, right? Don't give them any credit for having their own agenda and goals, because they're just simple little pawns in the hands of all-knowing/all-seeing Satanists. Of course one can't think that these little muslim simpletons can think and act on their own, and have brains and skills of their own.

Said it before, but I'll say it again...Western-centric thinking in the house anyone?

Mighty Oak · Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:41 pm Post subject:

Hell were all pawns at the hands of a few Satanist,some of us are just aware of this.

NAB · Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:47 pm Post subject:

Mighty Oak wrote: Hell were all pawns at the hands of a few Satanist,some of us are just aware of this.

And some of us are aware that we are dealing with humans with limited life-spans who aren't infallible. :wink:

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

NAB wrote: psholtz wrote: NAB wrote: Sigh........yes I know, they are Satan worshippers or somesuch with seemingly superhuman skills beyond the understanding of the average human being. :?
I don't know that Atta is a Satan worshipper..

He just seems to be a convinient patsie/CIA asset..

There are people in high levels of power who are Satanists, however.

Yes I know he seems like a convenient asset to you, as did all of the other hijackers as well, right? Don't give them any credit for having their own agenda and goals, because they're just simple little pawns in the hands of all-knowing/all-seeing Satanists. Of course one can't think that these little muslim simpletons can think and act on their own, and have brains and skills of their own.
I'm not super-imposing my personalities and values onto Atta, Bush, etc..

I take these people for what they are.

I'm not a Satan worshipper, I don't fly planes into buildings, and I don't wear big gold chains and stuff $100-bills into some strippers panties the night before my martyrdom.

Nor would I even try to identify w/ someone who *does* do these things.

What I'm saying that you can't superimpose your values and sense of judgment onto someone else, and then expect to draw a logical conclusion about how that person may act. Your line of reasoning here has been "well, I'm a hypocrite .. hey! everyone's a hypocrite .. therefore Atta must be a hypocrite.. and hey, if I was going to kill myself, I would probably go to a strip bar and hang out w/ some whores .. why wouldn't Atta?"

Well.. I guess what you're trying to tell us then is that you also must have a fetish for piloting jumbo jets into large skyscrapers.

How can you superimpose and identify w/ one set of values (going to a strip bar), and not identify w/ the other set of values (piloting planes into buildings)?

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

Mighty Oak wrote: Hell were all pawns at the hands of a few Satanist,some of us are just aware of this.
Some of us do what we can to stay in the Hand of God.. :wink:

NAB · Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:14 pm Post subject:

psholtz wrote: NAB wrote: psholtz wrote: NAB wrote: Sigh........yes I know, they are Satan worshippers or somesuch with seemingly superhuman skills beyond the understanding of the average human being. :?
I don't know that Atta is a Satan worshipper..

He just seems to be a convinient patsie/CIA asset..

There are people in high levels of power who are Satanists, however.

Yes I know he seems like a convenient asset to you, as did all of the other hijackers as well, right? Don't give them any credit for having their own agenda and goals, because they're just simple little pawns in the hands of all-knowing/all-seeing Satanists. Of course one can't think that these little muslim simpletons can think and act on their own, and have brains and skills of their own.
I'm not super-imposing my personalities and values onto Atta, Bush, etc..

I take these people for what they are.

I'm not a Satan worshipper, I don't fly planes into buildings, and I don't wear big gold chains and stuff $100-bills into some strippers panties the night before my martyrdom.

Nor would I even try to identify w/ someone who *does* do these things.

What I'm saying that you can't superimpose your values and sense of judgment onto someone else, and then expect to draw a logical conclusion about how that person may act. Your line of reasoning here has been "well, I'm a hypocrite .. hey! everyone's a hypocrite .. therefore Atta must be a hypocrite.. and hey, if I was going to kill myself, I would probably go to a strip bar and hang out w/ some whores .. why wouldn't Atta?"

Well.. I guess what you're trying to tell us then is that you also must have a fetish for piloting jumbo jets into large skyscrapers.

How can you superimpose and identify w/ one set of values (going to a strip bar), and not identify w/ the other set of values (piloting planes into buildings)?

Wow! Such leaps of faith and assumptions about me personally. It's no wonder you will believe some of the things you do. :lol:

I claimed that ALL humans are capable of hypocrisy, and wasn't necessarily referring to myself in the singular, but knock yourself out with that one. Nor did I claim I superimposed myself into their set of values, yet you find a way to see that I can "identify" with someone doing heinous acts. Understanding the mindset is very different from identifying with it. Since you believe that Satanists are ruling the earth, does that make you one? :lol:
You should get out from behind the keyboard on occasion and see the world beyond the US. You'll find all kinds of hypocrisy out there and surrounding many different faiths. It's the nature of humankind. We are all creatures with varying weaknesses and failings.

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

NAB wrote: Since you believe that Satanists are ruling the earth, does that make you one?
I'm not a Satan-worshipper, nor do I rule the earth.

Quote: We are all creatures with varying weaknesses and failings.
Those who Rule do so precisely b/c they know and exploit your weaknesses and failings.

This has always been true, and always will be true.

NAB · Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:41 pm Post subject:

psholtz wrote: NAB wrote: Since you believe that Satanists are ruling the earth, does that make you one?
I'm not a Satan-worshipper, nor do I rule the earth.

Quote: We are all creatures with varying weaknesses and failings.
Those who Rule do so precisely b/c they know and exploit your weaknesses and failings.

This has always been true, and always will be true.

The only thing worse than underestimating your enemy is overestimating them. Enough said on the whirlpool you consider debating. :wink:

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

NAB wrote: psholtz wrote: NAB wrote: Since you believe that Satanists are ruling the earth, does that make you one?
I'm not a Satan-worshipper, nor do I rule the earth.

Quote: We are all creatures with varying weaknesses and failings.
Those who Rule do so precisely b/c they know and exploit your weaknesses and failings.

This has always been true, and always will be true.

The only thing worse than underestimating your enemy is overestimating them.
This Enemy cannot be overestimated.

No matter how bad you think things are, in truth they are always worse.

You thought the US national debt commitment was $8.3 trillion? Ooops... try more like $49 trillion. Oops.. is the Wall Street Journal about to report on tihs lil discrepency? Guess we better pull the ol' MK-Ultra switch and go shoot up a couple schools. That'll divert everyone's attention for a week or two.

And on and on and on and on.

It's *always* worse than you suspect.

NAB · Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 5:20 pm Post subject:

psholtz wrote: NAB wrote: psholtz wrote: NAB wrote: Since you believe that Satanists are ruling the earth, does that make you one?
I'm not a Satan-worshipper, nor do I rule the earth.

Quote: We are all creatures with varying weaknesses and failings.
Those who Rule do so precisely b/c they know and exploit your weaknesses and failings.

This has always been true, and always will be true.

The only thing worse than underestimating your enemy is overestimating them.
This Enemy cannot be overestimated.

No matter how bad you think things are, in truth they are always worse.

You thought the US national debt commitment was $8.3 trillion? Ooops... try more like $49 trillion. Oops.. is the Wall Street Journal about to report on tihs lil discrepency? Guess we better pull the ol' MK-Ultra switch and go shoot up a couple schools. That'll divert everyone's attention for a week or two.

And on and on and on and on.

It's *always* worse than you suspect.

Just one word of advice. If you go looking for an all-knowing, all-encompassing enemy capable of the things you claim, then you will find it. Whether it actually exists or not.

JDHURF · Joined: 01 Jul 2006 Posts: 3598 Location: Tulsa, OK

psholtz wrote: What you're basically trying to say here is: "Gee.. I've had a look at these OBL tapes and everything seems fine and dandy to me! I totally believe the government's lie!"
I just told you that this is an extremely fatal way of looking at the world.
But that's your issue to deal w/, not mine.
That is one of the most pathetic responses I have ever seen. Do you not even have any evidence of this extraordinary claim you are making? Why in the world should I begin believing that our government planned for years, and effectively orchestrated the highest level violent connivance of modern history simply because you get your rocks off spewing forth conspiracy theories you picked up from Goebellian propaganda internet sites. Provide some support for your nonsensical claims and I might just give your absurdity a fair hearing.
psholtz wrote: Don't apply your logic, values and sense of judgment to the way your enemy operates.
My logic? Logic is universal silly, and, if you mean to say that your argument is illogical you will find no objection from me.
psholtz wrote: What's pathological about it?
It’s pathological because you are making the most extreme statements that are clearly contradictory to reality and doing so without the least bit of evidentiary abutment, it’s dishonest to a pathological extent.
psholtz wrote: It's a statement taken straight out of Logic 101..
Admit it, you have enjoyed absolutely no level of higher education.
psholtz wrote: If we are given "p" (you are not a murdering Satan worshipper), then from this we *cannot* necessarily conclude "q" (Bush is not a murdering Satan worshipper).
Sure but we also cannot be given “p” Bush preemptively invaded Iraq – and any other variety of criticisms easily made regarding Bush – and conclude “q” Bush is a Satan worshiper. You present a hysterical non-sequitur. It actually made me laugh out loud the first time I read it.
psholtz wrote: Surely you must admit the truth of my sentence, if nothing else.
You’re silly goose.
Please tell me I was correct and this is all just a hoax, you’re not actually being serious, right?

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

NAB wrote: psholtz wrote: NAB wrote: psholtz wrote: NAB wrote: Since you believe that Satanists are ruling the earth, does that make you one?
I'm not a Satan-worshipper, nor do I rule the earth.

Quote: We are all creatures with varying weaknesses and failings.
Those who Rule do so precisely b/c they know and exploit your weaknesses and failings.

This has always been true, and always will be true.

The only thing worse than underestimating your enemy is overestimating them.
This Enemy cannot be overestimated.

No matter how bad you think things are, in truth they are always worse.

You thought the US national debt commitment was $8.3 trillion? Ooops... try more like $49 trillion. Oops.. is the Wall Street Journal about to report on tihs lil discrepency? Guess we better pull the ol' MK-Ultra switch and go shoot up a couple schools. That'll divert everyone's attention for a week or two.

And on and on and on and on.

It's *always* worse than you suspect.

Just one word of advice.
You believe that I'm seeking your advice concerning something?

Quote: If you go looking for an all-knowing, all-encompassing enemy capable of the things you claim, then you will find it. Whether it actually exists or not.
The Enemy is not all-knowing, nor is the Enemy all-encompassing.

The Enemy is -- like all evil -- actually quite weak.

The only reason the Enemy thrives and prospers in the current world is b/c the people (esp the American people) are even weaker.