Political Crossfire Forums

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 7752 Location: Petah Tikva

Quote: The Iranian leadership is as vile that as ever existed in that region. But I have no real excuse to deny them the bomb, except on the basis of me disliking them. That in itself is no justification to deny them the right to pursue nuclear technology.

You do not think a vile regime with a clear support of offensive organizations and a clear radical stance is a factor when considering how the world should react to a nuclear weapons program? Each case is different as Israel, Pakistan, South Africa, India, as well as the unsuccesful or aborted Brazil, Argeninta, and Australian programs.

Quote: As for Turkey as my post indicated, Israel cant say nothing anyway. But for a nuclear powered Egypt? Its a matter of time before the war of words start. It will be nuclear energy yes. Nuclear bomb, no. To even think Egypt would have a nuclear weapon program, whilst pursuing a civil nuclear power program? Well that's naivety to the extreme.

I dont beleive Egypt will develop another nuclear program, I do not think they have the willpower, funds, and heart in it to spend billions of dollars over more than a decade to develop a weapon they have no use for and far more pressing concerns.

Quote: Secondly I never knew the Israeli government supported Turkey and Egypt, pursuing nuclear programs.

I cant speak for Olmert and his cabinet but Turkey has been a good friend of Israel and we have carried out military exercises together and we helped train Turkish military units and sold them large stocks of aerial equipment. Turkey has begun to reflect this diplomatically by shifting away more and more in the UN by frequantly abstaining from votes concerning Israel.

As for Egypt we have a burdgeoning relationship in commerce, diplomacy, and tourism, they have a stable government and have proven effective at crushing radical elements. I dont feel as comfortable as I do with Turkey, but I wouldnt advocate any action against them, passivity would be the choice. That isnt to say I wouldnt be releived if they chose not to pursue it much further but I am ambivilent for the most part.

ToonArmyIsComing · Joined: 15 Feb 2005 Posts: 5888 Location: Ontario

The whole Middle East is going nuclear. It's very troubling indeed:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2436948,00.html

Venom · Joined: 06 Sep 2006 Posts: 807

Good thing the UN followed through with their threat of sanctions versus Iran... oh wait....

Quote: Skippy, you miss the point entirely with my defense of Iran. Personally I don't wish Iran to get the bomb. But I cannot argue a case for Iran not to have it, on the basis of propaganda, blatant hypocrisy, the applying of the most grotesque form of double standards and a dose of nepotism.

The Iranian leadership is as vile that as ever existed in that region. But I have no real excuse to deny them the bomb, except on the basis of me disliking them. That in itself is no justification to deny them the right to pursue nuclear technology.
As for Turkey as my post indicated, Israel cant say nothing anyway. But for a nuclear powered Egypt? Its a matter of time before the war of words start. It will be nuclear energy yes. Nuclear bomb, no. To even think Egypt would have a nuclear weapon program, whilst pursuing a civil nuclear power program? Well that's naivety to the extreme.

Secondly I never knew the Israeli government supported Turkey and Egypt, pursuing nuclear programs.
I guess it's false propaganda when the Iranian President goes out to preach the death of America and Israel... well the whole west for that matter.
So while the President of Iran states that he wouldn't mind all of you Brits being dead, I guess that's not much of a threat to you huh Plato?

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 15548 Location: On Earth

ToonArmyIsComing wrote: The whole Middle East is going nuclear. It's very troubling indeed:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2436948,00.html \

So, it's okay for Egypt and Turkey, but not for Iran. Why? Because Egypt and Turkey are okay. They like Israel. They deal with it. Iran doesn't, even though it's clearly pursuing nuclear power and solely that. And because Iran does not like Israel, it's not okay for them to get nuclear power.

Venom · Joined: 06 Sep 2006 Posts: 807

Quote: So, it's okay for Egypt and Turkey, but not for Iran. Why
Do the leaders of these countries come out declaring the death of the West, wiping out Israel?

Quote: even though it's clearly pursuing nuclear power and solely that
Judging from their leadership's remarks.... they are clearly pursuing the death of Israel....

Pareve · Joined: 30 Aug 2006 Posts: 893

Plato & Socrates wrote: lilwolf wrote: I am not to worried about Egypt and Turkey in that they are both fairly civilized in comparison to Iran. Neither is overtly aggressive either so i do not see much headache coming from those two. But that's just my opinion.

When A.I.P.A.C and co, work on the collective tiny American mind. Egypt will be seen has Israels immortal enemy, cos it says so in the bible :roll: as well as other reasons. Egypt will be America's public enemy number one.
The majority of dumb-arse Yanks, would have bought into that crap also. Advocating a military campaign to deny Egypt nuclear technology. Just in case they make a bomb, which would be there right. Never the less, America will object, based on found-less accusations. I'll take bets with anyone. You can write the script already.

The comrade wrote: I don't mind turkey having nuclear technology.

egypt i would be worried about. egypt is sort of on the fence about how it feels with the west and if one disillusioned scientist were to sneak something into gaza through raffah then you could have quite a mess...

You see, the Jedi mindtrick is working already. The madness has started. :lol:

TROLL.

ToonArmyIsComing · Joined: 15 Feb 2005 Posts: 5888 Location: Ontario

Saracen wrote: ToonArmyIsComing wrote: The whole Middle East is going nuclear. It's very troubling indeed:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2436948,00.html \

So, it's okay for Egypt and Turkey, but not for Iran. Why? Because Egypt and Turkey are okay. They like Israel. They deal with it. Iran doesn't, even though it's clearly pursuing nuclear power and solely that. And because Iran does not like Israel, it's not okay for them to get nuclear power.

I don't support Israel or anyone else having nuclear weapons in the region. The same goes for Egypt, Turkey, and Iran and whoever else has them including the US.

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 7752 Location: Petah Tikva

Quote: So, it's okay for Egypt and Turkey, but not for Iran. Why? Because Egypt and Turkey are okay. They like Israel. They deal with it. Iran doesn't, even though it's clearly pursuing nuclear power and solely that. And because Iran does not like Israel, it's not okay for them to get nuclear power.

They havent been making threats against nations, destablizing inter regional security, funding terrorist groups and militant groups, and arent ruled by an autocratic semi-fanatical council and leader.

Also they are not clearly pursuing nuclear power.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 15548 Location: On Earth

superskippy wrote: Quote: So, it's okay for Egypt and Turkey, but not for Iran. Why? Because Egypt and Turkey are okay. They like Israel. They deal with it. Iran doesn't, even though it's clearly pursuing nuclear power and solely that. And because Iran does not like Israel, it's not okay for them to get nuclear power.

They havent been making threats against nations, destablizing inter regional security, funding terrorist groups and militant groups, and arent ruled by an autocratic semi-fanatical council and leader.

Hizbullah was supported by Iran w/weapons. So was Israel: it's supported by the U.S.'s tax dollars and weapons for over the past 10-20 years. In that sense, both sides are guilty of terrorism. Iran hasn't destabilized the inter-regional security as much as Israel's invasion of Lebanon, and their leader may be a nutcase, but he isn't a threat.

Quote: Also they are not clearly pursuing nuclear power.

They are. He said in a press conference that Iran is pursuing peaceful nuclear technology. CNN translated that into "nuclear weapons".

ToonArmyIsComing wrote: I don't support Israel or anyone else having nuclear weapons in the region. The same goes for Egypt, Turkey, and Iran and whoever else has them including the US.

For me, it's either the whole world gets nukes, or the whole world disarms them, no exception. In that sense, I advocate the latter.

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 7752 Location: Petah Tikva

Quote: Hizbullah was supported by Iran w/weapons. So was Israel: it's supported by the U.S.'s tax dollars and weapons for over the past 10-20 years. In that sense, both sides are guilty of terrorism. Iran hasn't destabilized the inter-regional security as much as Israel's invasion of Lebanon, and their leader may be a nutcase, but he isn't a threat.

Israel is a country Saracen, just as Syria and Egypt were countries when the Soviet Union gave them arms and grants. Your grasping at straws to bring Israel down to an equal level with Hezbollah and it simpyl isnt applicable. Hezbollah is private army that controls swathes of territory in South Lebanon without the directive of the the government in Beirut and it has carried out numerous terrorist attacks and militant action without reprisenting a state. If Iran decided to give arms to Syria or Lebanon fine. But here they are supporting a terrorist militant force that destablizes the region and the country of Lebanon.

Quote: They are. He said in a press conference that Iran is pursuing peaceful nuclear technology. CNN translated that into "nuclear weapons".

I dont recall CNN saying that, but that isnt the point. Pakistan, India, Israel, and South Africa all claimed to be either using research facilities or building power reactors. I dont give a damn what the man says, it is simple logic that Iran is moving towards nuclear weapons there simply isnt any other logical move towards this.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 15548 Location: On Earth

superskippy wrote: Israel is a country Saracen, just as Syria and Egypt were countries when the Soviet Union gave them arms and grants. Your grasping at straws to bring Israel down to an equal level with Hezbollah and it simpyl isnt applicable. Hezbollah is private army that controls swathes of territory in South Lebanon without the directive of the the government in Beirut and it has carried out numerous terrorist attacks and militant action without reprisenting a state. If Iran decided to give arms to Syria or Lebanon fine. But here they are supporting a terrorist militant force that destablizes the region and the country of Lebanon.

Whether Israel is a country or not, it's still a body. And as such it can be criticised. Are you trying to tell me that Saddam's Iraq shouldn't be criticized?

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 7752 Location: Petah Tikva

I am saying that the comparisons are not equal. Almost every nation that is capable of transfering arms to allied nations does so but it is universally viewed as wrong to supply arms to a terrorist groups and non-auxilary militia and para military groups as Iran has done. Iran has in essence waged a proxy war through Hezbollah to gain influence there and to kill Israelis and gain leverage.

bunny · Joined: 14 Oct 2006 Posts: 584

superskippy wrote: I am saying that the comparisons are not equal. Almost every nation that is capable of transfering arms to allied nations does so but it is universally viewed as wrong to supply arms to a terrorist groups and non-auxilary militia and para military groups as Iran has done. Iran has in essence waged a proxy war through Hezbollah to gain influence there and to kill Israelis and gain leverage.

You should start picking on the USA then, if you have issues with countires funding militias, as they are probably the biggest problem in this area.

Note: Iran is fighting the War on Terror, they've been fighting the Taliban in Afghanistan.

There is no evidence that Iran is pursuing nuclear weapons.

There is nothing wrong with Iran being critical of Israel, and wanting the state abolished, inre: the Palestinian issue.

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 7752 Location: Petah Tikva

Quote: There is no evidence that Iran is pursuing nuclear weapons.

There is nothing wrong with Iran being critical of Israel, and wanting the state abolished, inre: the Palestinian issue.

If you truley think that and can so easily jump from criticism to justifying the destruction of my country we have nothing to discuss.

bunny · Joined: 14 Oct 2006 Posts: 584

superskippy wrote: Quote: There is no evidence that Iran is pursuing nuclear weapons.

There is nothing wrong with Iran being critical of Israel, and wanting the state abolished, inre: the Palestinian issue.

If you truley think that and can so easily jump from criticism to justifying the destruction of my country we have nothing to discuss.

Hey, I want the current addministration of Israel abolished. For all intensive matters, I want everything about the way the current state of Israel operates to be abolished, in theory.

She is very wrong in her actions & methodology, IMO, and there is nothing wrong with being critical of this, as it all simply being critical of a country, a secular state, just like any other.... like the many other that are constantly bashed by people of a certian ilk on these boards.

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 7752 Location: Petah Tikva

Quote: Hey, I want the current addministration of Israel abolished. For all intensive matters, I want everything about the way the current state of Israel operates to be abolished, in theory.

It is that mentality that if prevalent amongst all Palestinians would mean peace would never reign.

Quote: She is very wrong in her actions & methodology, IMO, and there is nothing wrong with being critical of this, as it all simply being critical of a country, a secular state, just like any other

That is a clear distinction from saying that the country should be abolished and destroyed.

bunny · Joined: 14 Oct 2006 Posts: 584

superskippy wrote: Quote: Hey, I want the current addministration of Israel abolished. For all intensive matters, I want everything about the way the current state of Israel operates to be abolished, in theory.

It is that mentality that if prevalent amongst all Palestinians would mean peace would never reign.

Change is good...

My advice to Israel, is to change...

My advice to the Palestinians, is to change, but also to allow change to happen, via patience

superskippy wrote:
Quote: She is very wrong in her actions & methodology, IMO, and there is nothing wrong with being critical of this, as it all simply being critical of a country, a secular state, just like any other

That is a clear distinction from saying that the country should be abolished and destroyed.

Yet, this is no different from what Ahmenijad has said. His words are allowed to be taken out of context, and twisted into something different than he intended, though.

Edit: ARRGGHH - Look at this terrorist, claiming that Israel should NOT EXIST...

^^^What should we do with this clown? He supports Iran too, afterall.

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 7752 Location: Petah Tikva

Quote: Change is good...

What your implying by change is good is a gross statement.

Quote: Yet, this is no different from what Ahmenijad has said. His words are allowed to be taken out of context, and twisted into something different than he intended, though.

He has repeated his statements before and made clear his views on the matter.

bunny · Joined: 14 Oct 2006 Posts: 584

superskippy wrote: Quote: Change is good...

What your implying by change is good is a gross statement.

How's that gross?

superskippy wrote: Quote: Yet, this is no different from what Ahmenijad has said. His words are allowed to be taken out of context, and twisted into something different than he intended, though.

He has repeated his statements before and made clear his views on the matter.

Yes, he repeated himself, and said that he questioned teh legitimacy of Israel, and said that the state should be abolished & left up to the people to decide what happens... he was very clear indeed.

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 7752 Location: Petah Tikva

Quote: How's that gross?

You were implying that by change you meant a change in nations and government. Which I find to be a gross statement.

Quote: Yes, he repeated himself, and said that he questioned teh legitimacy of Israel, and said that the state should be abolished & left up to the people to decide what happens... he was very clear indeed.

The people have decided. Israel is the nation currently recognized within it's borders with a loyal citizenry. He simply doesnt want Israel to exist.