Political Crossfire Forums

[lilwolf]

While there have been a great deal of so called words calling America a gun culture there is no proof at all to the statement that guns causes and teaches our kids to be violent.
In my opinon there are numerous people that will assume that when ever something goes on in another nation it is our fault. Whether it is a guy with a mohawk or the guy down the street that happens to have pierced ears. I offer some evidence here to counter the myth of "gun culture teaches our kids to be violent. There are those that will call this proaganda but hey the facts and sources for this OP are at the end of the article. These are several different reason why it is assumed. All the following come from the NRA web site.

After several isolated firearm crimes committed by children on school grounds during the late 1990s, anti-gun activists falsely suggested that such crimes were common and attributable not only to guns, but to hunting and the so-called "gun culture." They even faulted the "Southern culture" in particular, for a shooting in Arkansas, until it was reported that the primary suspect in the crime had been raised in a Northern state.

Several recent studies conducted for the federal government tell a different story than one hears from those who spin the news to promote gun control. Among the findings: Boys who learn about firearms and their legitimate uses from family members and who own firearms legally have much lower rates of delinquency than those who own firearms illegally and those who do not own firearms.1 Only 2% of school administrators consider guns a serious problem on school grounds.2 Ninety percent of schools had no serious violent crimes during 1996-1997 and 43% had no crime at all. The overall school crime rate dropped 22% from 1993 to 1996, and murders and suicides rarely occur in or near schools, leading former Secretary of Education, Richard Riley, to conclude, "the vast majority of America's schools are still among the safest places for youngsters to be."3

Many factors have been identified as contributing to the likelihood of homicides, including poverty and unemployment, as well as population size, density, age, and the percentage of people living in urban areas. Merely being in the South, however, is a statistically insignificant factor.4 And while persons who live in rural areas are more likely to be hunters, the total violent crime rate and murder rate in rural counties are 63% and 36% lower, respectively, than those found in metropolitan areas.5

False stereotypes of gun owners have been an article of faith in some anti-gun circles for years. Professor William R. Tonso, head of the Department of Sociology, Criminal Justice, and Anthropology at the University of Evansville, Indiana, attributed the on-going clash over gun ownership to a cultural conflict between people who, by virtue of their upbringing and lifestyle, have little knowledge of firearms and their legitimate uses, and people who are familiar with firearms and associate them with freedom, security and recreation.6

Those whose loathing of guns stems from a fear of the unknown might have a change of heart if they knew that hunting not only teaches youngsters how to be safe with firearms, it provides them valuable character-building lessons that will serve them throughout their lives. Hunting has a longstanding code of ethics built upon respect for the rights of others. And hunters, more than any other group, are responsible for protecting wildlife and their natural habitat through a variety of conservation programs they fund.

Additionally, NRA has been the nation's leader in firearm safety training and hunter education for decades. Our 42,500 Certified Instructors and Coaches train hundreds of thousands of people each year in a variety of programs of study. Additionally, the Eddie Eagle GunSafe® Program, which does not use guns, teaches children in grades pre-K through 6th that if they encounter a gun while unsupervised, they should "STOP! Don't touch. Leave the area. Tell an adult." The award-winning program, used by 20,000 police departments and schools, has been provided to more than 16 million children.


1. Terence P. Thornberry, Alan J. Lizotte & James M. Tesoriero, "Patterns of Adolescent Firearms Ownership and Use," Albany: Hindelang Criminal Justice Research Center, State University of New York, 1991 Rochester Youth Development Study, Working paper no. 11.

2. Joseph F. Sheley and James D. Wright, "High School Youths, Weapons, and Violence: A National Survey," Series: Research in Brief, Office of Justice Programs, National Institute of Justice, Oct. 1998.

3. The White House Conference on School Safety, Causes and Prevention of Youth Violence, First Annual Report on School Safety, Oct. 1998.

4. Tomislav V. Kovandzic, et al., "The Structural Covariates of Urban Homicide," Criminology, Vol. 36, pp. 587-588 Aug. 1998.

5. FBI, Uniform Crime Reports, Crime in the United States 2000, p. 67.

6. William R. Tonso, "Guns and the Media," The American Rifleman, April, 1986, pp. 42.


I also wish to state that this from the NRA and it is a widely recognized authority in gun control and gun owner rights.
The link will take you to their pages of myths and legends for those that are interested.


http://www.nraila.org/Issues/Articles/Read.aspx?id=209#121

[Wolverine]

Interesting, the link is incredible by the way.

[adnjacob]

Excellent post.

[Numb]

Well, I'm not disagreeing with you Wolf but the NRA website might be a little bias, don't you think? :(

[lilwolf]

Numb wrote: Well, I'm not disagreeing with you Wolf but the NRA website might be a little bias, don't you think? :(


No not at all. They might be on some issues but when it comes to presenting reports from the gov. good or bad they do post them. They are no more bias that the brady camp and their so-called effective brady law. That will be the subject of another thread here very soon.

Bias maybe, but they put honest information that is backed up from credible sources and have never been sued for misrepresentation of facts and issues.

[lilwolf]

There is an entire program that is dedicated to teaching the youth about guns and weapons in general

Additionally, NRA has been the nation's leader in firearm safety training and hunter education for decades. Our 42,500 Certified Instructors and Coaches train hundreds of thousands of people each year in a variety of programs of study. Additionally, the Eddie Eagle GunSafe® Program, which does not use guns, teaches children in grades pre-K through 6th that if they encounter a gun while unsupervised, they should "STOP! Don't touch. Leave the area. Tell an adult." The award-winning program, used by 20,000 police departments and schools, has been provided to more than 16 million children.

The link to this program is as follows:

http://www.nraila.org/Issues/Articles/Read.aspx?id=197&issue=009

[britboy]

Only so far read the start of this post but will read the rest soon.

Anyway here is as far as I have so far read, and the first sentence that caught me:
Quote:
Boys who learn about firearms and their legitimate uses from family members and who own firearms legally have much lower rates of delinquency than those who own firearms illegally and those who do not own firearms.

So, thinking about this sentence carefully, do you agree this sentence is forming a few conclusions, including:

Boys who own firearms legally have much lower rates of delinquency than those that do not own firearms.

If so, do you agree with this sentence?

[perdidochas]

britboy wrote: Only so far read the start of this post but will read the rest soon.

Anyway here is as far as I have so far read, and the first sentence that caught me:
Quote:
Boys who learn about firearms and their legitimate uses from family members and who own firearms legally have much lower rates of delinquency than those who own firearms illegally and those who do not own firearms.

So, thinking about this sentence carefully, do you agree this sentence is forming a few conclusions, including:

Boys who own firearms legally have much lower rates of delinquency than those that do not own firearms.

If so, do you agree with this sentence?

I agree 100%. It is how I was raised. The majority of my friends in high school had free access (if not outright ownership) of hunting rifles and shotguns. I don't think the guns cause the lower rate of delinquency, but I believe that traditional familes (the kind that would give their kids firearms) have lower rates of delinquency, due to a variety of reasons. Also, I think a father-led intact family is much more likely to give access to firearms to kids than a mother-led, either single or broken, family.

(that's what this study shows, see page 18. Legal gun ownership, involving guns given by parents, has the lowest crime rates. )

www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/urdel.pdf#search=%22%22Urban%20Delinquency%20and%20Substance%20Abuse.%22%20%22

[lilwolf]

britboy wrote: Only so far read the start of this post but will read the rest soon.

Anyway here is as far as I have so far read, and the first sentence that caught me:
Quote:
Boys who learn about firearms and their legitimate uses from family members and who own firearms legally have much lower rates of delinquency than those who own firearms illegally and those who do not own firearms.

So, thinking about this sentence carefully, do you agree this sentence is forming a few conclusions, including:

Boys who own firearms legally have much lower rates of delinquency than those that do not own firearms.

If so, do you agree with this sentence?

Absolutely, I was raised around weapons all of my life. We were all taught what a weapon is and what it can do. The lessons that are taught to kids when they are young are some of the best tthings that do seem to prevent delinquency. I think it helped teach responsibility, and respect as well as safety. Little things like-- no matter what always assume the gun is loaded. Never point at a person unless you "have" to use it. Responsibilities of care and maintenance for the weapon and an entire gambit of different things went into being raised differently.
I have no idea why kids differ in those that got safety and those that do not, but it just might be that we were taught safety and responsibility and respect for not only the gun but for life in general. Being taught the seld defense aspects coupled with responsibility assists kids in growing up balanced.

[britboy]

Would you say this is exclusive for gun owner kids, or could you extend your argument to .. er .. 'kids that had the responsibility for looking after a puppy', 'kids that had to organise and spend a set 'allowance' rather than bugging their parents when they wanted candy' etc. being less likely to be delinquent??

[perdidochas]

britboy wrote: Would you say this is exclusive for gun owner kids, or could you extend your argument to .. er .. 'kids that had the responsibility for looking after a puppy', 'kids that had to organise and spend a set 'allowance' rather than bugging their parents when they wanted candy' etc. being less likely to be delinquent??

Did I imply that it was the guns that caused the effect? I fairly clearly wrote :"don't think the guns cause the lower rate of delinquency, but I believe that traditional familes (the kind that would give their kids firearms) have lower rates of delinquency, due to a variety of reasons."

The point is that parents legally giving guns to their kids doesn't cause problems. It's kids getting guns on their own that causes problems.

[lilwolf]

britboy wrote: Would you say this is exclusive for gun owner kids, or could you extend your argument to .. er .. 'kids that had the responsibility for looking after a puppy', 'kids that had to organise and spend a set 'allowance' rather than bugging their parents when they wanted candy' etc. being less likely to be delinquent??


Yes it could be construed that being taught how to raise a puppy right could teach the kid responsibility. I do not think this is an exclusive for kids of gun owners, but it seems that kids who are not taught responsibility and safety are the ones in trouble, the second they get their hands on a gun with out proper teaching and knowledge.

[britboy]

lilwolf wrote: britboy wrote: Would you say this is exclusive for gun owner kids, or could you extend your argument to .. er .. 'kids that had the responsibility for looking after a puppy', 'kids that had to organise and spend a set 'allowance' rather than bugging their parents when they wanted candy' etc. being less likely to be delinquent??


Yes it could be construed that being taught how to raise a puppy right could teach the kid responsibility. I do not think this is an exclusive for kids of gun owners, but it seems that kids who are not taught responsibility and safety are the ones in trouble, the second they get their hands on a gun with out proper teaching and knowledge.

Hmm .. if I was living in the US and had to choose whether to buy my kid a Glock or a little cute puppy with a red ribbon to teach responsibility, I wouldn't spend too long pondering the decision.

[lilwolf]

britboy wrote: lilwolf wrote: britboy wrote: Would you say this is exclusive for gun owner kids, or could you extend your argument to .. er .. 'kids that had the responsibility for looking after a puppy', 'kids that had to organise and spend a set 'allowance' rather than bugging their parents when they wanted candy' etc. being less likely to be delinquent??


Yes it could be construed that being taught how to raise a puppy right could teach the kid responsibility. I do not think this is an exclusive for kids of gun owners, but it seems that kids who are not taught responsibility and safety are the ones in trouble, the second they get their hands on a gun with out proper teaching and knowledge.

Hmm .. if I was living in the US and had to choose whether to buy my kid a Glock or a little cute puppy with a red ribbon to teach responsibility, I wouldn't spend too long pondering the decision.


And that is your choice. I was not given a weapon until I had proved to my folks that I was responsible enough to handle it. That took a good while because my father is a bit of a strict person in that catefory and that was a good thing. Just called responsibility. :-D