Political Crossfire Forums

Random Evil Guy · Joined: 20 Dec 2005 Posts: 1793

John wrote:

You are a monkey.

so are you. :-D

Carlin · Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 8:26 am Post subject:

wannabe wrote: Carlin wrote: Hasn't anyone found it funny? It's not meant to be a true educational piece (if anyone thought such a thing). It repititiously says "monkeys" for the sake of making someone like me laugh and pissing someone like you off. It need not piss you off, if you can bite into the crisp satire. In three minutes, the video addresses the neurosis, the biggotry, the doubt, the loneliness, the arrogance, the illusion, and the recklesness of man. In just three minutes it tears into everything many view as sacred and true, then spits it out like gum that lost its flavor. It's quite an impressive feat.

that kind of satire was crisp when Voltaire did it, but 250 years on I find it a bit soggy.......... :lol:

Voltaire made a 3 minute video summing up all the flaws of humanity? Is that on youtube? I can't wait to see that!

Carlin · Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 8:41 am Post subject:

[quote="John"] Quote: Yeah, I'm talking about the social world here. I'm talking about the social institutions and the social norms people create, not atmospheric and other scientific realities like the sky being blue, oxygen or gravity.

Quote: That's where you're missing it. The Moral Law is just as much a scientific reality as sky being blue, oxygen and gravity. The only difference is that man in his fallen state has the free will and choses to break these laws.

Human constructions are not solid. They appear that way at times, but they're not. Then again, you are coming at this as if there is a God who has outlined a lot of rules, which is unfounded. I'm talking about improving upon what we know in regards to where we are.

Quote:

Doesn't your statement here prove that you believe in the Moral Law?

For there can be no improvement without a standard.

A standard of how people treat one another. Standards in how we handle war, poverty, famine, and education. Are you under the impression I wouldn't be for moral standards?

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 23737

Quote: Human constructions are not solid. They appear that way at times, but they're not. Then again, you are coming at this as if there is a God who has outlined a lot of rules, which is unproven. I'm talking about improving upon what we know in regards to where we are.

I disagree. We all understand the un-written rules of fair play. You might speak out and try to come up with excuses to why you can break these rules for your particular circumstance....but the fact that you even need to defend yourself is proof that the rules exist. And it doesn't take long for people like you to speak out on how the rules exist when someone is breaking the rules and you feel the consequences.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 23737

Quote: A standard of how people treat one another. Standards in how we handle war, poverty, famine, and education. Are you under the impression I wouldn't be for moral standards?

Do you really believe that we are writing the standard? That doesn't make any sense. The only reason you feel like something is wrong is because there is an absolute right. Other wise saying that something is righter than something else would be complete non-sense.

Carlin · Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:58 pm Post subject:

John wrote:
I disagree. We all understand the un-written rules of fair play. You might speak out and try to come up with excuses to why you can break these rules for your particular circumstance....but the fact that you even need to defend yourself is proof that the rules exist. And it doesn't take long for people like you to speak out on how the rules exist when someone is breaking the rules and you feel the consequences.

Which rules are you referring to? We understand what unwritten rules for fair play? Rules and norms change all the time. My examples of racism, slavery and intolerance dissipating over time should suffice.

Carlin · Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:07 pm Post subject:

John wrote: Do you really believe that we are writing the standard? That doesn't make any sense. The only reason you feel like something is wrong is because there is an absolute right. Other wise saying that something is righter than something else would be complete non-sense.

I'm not sure what you mean. You mean that God decided what was right before hand and that is the only way we can notice if something is wrong? People have varying opinions of what is right, what is wrong, or what better action needs to be taken. There are those who believe the Iraq war is wrong and there are those who believe it is good. Which one follows the unwritten standard placed by God (if that's even what you mean)? There are endless, varying examples of what is reviled as "evil" to one person and "right" to another.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 23737

Carlin wrote: John wrote:
I disagree. We all understand the un-written rules of fair play. You might speak out and try to come up with excuses to why you can break these rules for your particular circumstance....but the fact that you even need to defend yourself is proof that the rules exist. And it doesn't take long for people like you to speak out on how the rules exist when someone is breaking the rules and you feel the consequences.

Which rules are you referring to? We understand what unwritten rules for fair play? Rules and norms change all the time. My examples of racism, slavery and intolerance dissipating over time should suffice.

Do you believe that the person who was being discriminated against, kept as a slave or not tolerated ever felt like what was being done to them was right? Of course not….something inside of man has always told them that these things are wrong. Now mankind will break the rules and oppress his fellow man and come up with excuses to why it’s ok to break the rules under curtain circumstances. For example there was once an excuse that it was ok to enslave a black man…but it was wrong to do the same to a white man (the excuse was that black man wasn't really a man). The white man knew that slavery was wrong and was sure to stand up and state this fact when it affected him…but would make up excuses for breaking the Moral Law under other errant perceived circumstances. It was still wrong….and no about of excuses ever changed that.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 23737

Carlin wrote: John wrote: Do you really believe that we are writing the standard? That doesn't make any sense. The only reason you feel like something is wrong is because there is an absolute right. Other wise saying that something is righter than something else would be complete non-sense.

I'm not sure what you mean. You mean that God decided what was right before hand and that is the only way we can notice if something is wrong? People have varying opinions of what is right, what is wrong, or what better action needs to be taken. There are those who believe the Iraq war is wrong and there are those who believe it is good. Which one follows the unwritten standard placed by God (if that's even what you mean)? There are endless, varying examples of what is reviled as "evil" to one person and "right" to another.

I'm not sure who is right about the Iraq war...but there is an absolute answer with isn't dependant on opinion. I personally believe that God stands for what is right and wrong...but that isn't my point. That would be for you to decide. My point is that there is an un-written Moral Code that exists outside of human opinion. Now where that un-written Moral Code comes from is for you to think about...but to deny that it exists is to deny simple logic.

Carlin · Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:39 pm Post subject:

[quote="John"] Carlin wrote:
I'm not sure who is right about the Iraq war...but there is an absolute answer with isn't dependant on opinion. I personally believe that God stands for what is right and wrong...but that isn't my point. That would be for you to decide. My point is that there is an un-written Moral Code that exists outside of human opinion. Now where that un-written Moral Code comes from is for you to think about...but to deny that it exists is to deny simple logic.

I don't believe there is an opinion outside of human thought. That is where we part. I advocate the minimalizing of human suffering from human controlled entities. It shouldn't matter who believes in what God or no God. And arguing that it should be about God will get nothing done (in fact, the opposite will be done).

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 23737

Quote: I don't believe there is an opinion outside of human thought. That is where we part. I advocate the minimalizing of human suffering from human controlled entities. It shouldn't matter who believes in what God or no God. And arguing that it should be about God will get nothing done (in fact, the opposite will be done).

Then based upon your logic your opinion is moot. Since all opinions can be nothing more than an opinion.

Do you believe that there not being an opinion outside of human thought is an absolute fact? And if so...why is it an absolute fact?

Carlin · Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:11 pm Post subject:

[quote="John"] Quote: I don't believe there is an opinion outside of human thought. That is where we part. I advocate the minimalizing of human suffering from human controlled entities. It shouldn't matter who believes in what God or no God. And arguing that it should be about God will get nothing done (in fact, the opposite will be done).

Quote: Then based upon your logic your opinion is moot. Since all opinions can be nothing more than an opinion.

Anybody can have an opinion about anything, but some opinions are based on nothing and others use evidence based on real life data to show what doesn't work or what does.

Quote: Do you believe that there not being an opinion outside of human thought is an absolute fact? And if so...why is it an absolute fact?

To me, yes. I don't believe in the supernatural. I don't believe there is a man in the sky witholding the ultimate truth. My believing this does not require you to. What's the big deal? Here I am trying to advocate an understanding of social life and you say everybody has to believe the same thing in order for anything to improve.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 23737

Quote: Anybody can have an opinion about anything, but some opinions are based on nothing and others use evidence based on real life data to show what doesn't work or what does.

The only reason anything can be proven to be more valid than something elese is IF an absolute truth exists. You have already stated that it is evident that it is wrong for people to "hurt people for no rational reason". This can only be true IF there is a Moral Law that states this outside of human opinion.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 23737

Quote: To me, yes. I don't believe in the supernatural. I don't believe there is a man in the sky witholding the ultimate truth. My believing this does not require you to. What's the big deal? Here I am trying to advocate an understanding of social life and you say everybody has to believe the same thing in order for anything to improve.

No. All I've said is that there is an absolute truth.

Carlin · Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:47 pm Post subject:

[quote="John"] Quote:
The only reason anything can be proven to be more valid than something elese is IF an absolute truth exists. You have already stated that it is evident that it is wrong for people to "hurt people for no rational reason". This can only be true IF there is a Moral Law that states this outside of human opinion.

There are things we can measure and study to prove hypothesis. If our goal is a peace loving world, then we will try to implement a course of action based on previous research to advance our goal. If our goal is world domination, then we will use tactics subvert the current hierarchy with means previously examined to prove effective. I don't think there is an "ultimate truth," just us with our thoughts and goals. I'm not really sure what else I can say to better illustrate my point. Maybe somebody else can explain it better? Yes there is. There is a book called "The Sociologically Examined Life" by Michael Schwabe. That book best exemplifies an understanding of how the social world works today, how each individual factors in, and how it correlates to the past and future.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 23737

Quote: I don't think there is an "ultimate truth," just us with our thoughts and goals.

Wouldn't that be an ultimate truth?

Carlin · Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:59 pm Post subject:

John wrote: Quote: I don't think there is an "ultimate truth," just us with our thoughts and goals.

Wouldn't that be an ultimate truth?

lol, this has just gone the full 360 circle. I can quote what I've said earlier in this thread and leave it at that:

Quote: Yeah, I'm talking about the social world here. I'm talking about the social institutions and the social norms people create, not atmospheric and other scientific realities like the sky being blue, oxygen or gravity.

Or in addition to that, the fact people think. I thank you for your time.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 23737

Quote: ol, this has just gone the full 360 circle. I can quote what I've said earlier in this thread and leave it at that:

Because you're absolutely wrong.

Only completely illogical people claim that there are no absolutes. That statement breaks the first rule of basic logic. The Law of Non-Contradiction....which requires an absolute truth. Don't they teach Socrates in school these days?

Carlin · Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 3:19 pm Post subject:

Never said there weren't any absolute truths! We are born and we die, that is an absolute truth. You're integrating human thought and belief with scientifically proven facts. I don't have the time or energy to continue with this. You're just not understanding what I'm saying. Sorry.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 23737

Carlin wrote: Never said there weren't any absolute truths! We are born and we die, that is an absolute truth. I don't have the time or energy to continue with this. You're just not understanding what I'm saying. Sorry.

I understand completely what you're saying. You're just wrong.

You say that goodness exists...but you refuse to admit that there has to be an absolute truth that defines goodness in order for any goodness to exist at all.

I think it is you who is not understanding me.