Political Crossfire Forums

[Varyag]

Well enjoy the benefits of your decimated country and mass civilian and hezbollah losses, courtesy of Israel, brought to you by Hezbollah, 20 years stupid and still not getting any smarter :wink:

[Saracen]

ALi* wrote: i wanna just reply to saracan's post....
palestini shouldnt have kidnapped the israeli soldier if they werent sure they can deffend such act... look at palestine now... the country's a mess!!
israeli killing innocent people
palestini killing innocent people
paletini killing palestini (gaza 2day)
u got half of the parliement members in prison
the government fell apart....
more people hate the palestinis....
u shouldnt have done it....

I didn't do it. Look at the parliamentarians and how Fatah is undermining the PA's authority. I didn't support the kidnapping to begin with, but it's good exchange for the many Palestinian prisoners who are held under no charges in Israeli jails, women and children included. And Palestinians killing Palestinians... are you talking about the protests against Hamas for the salaries? What do you expect? Hamas is trying its best, but what is happening in Palestine is indeed messy, and I don't like it.

Quote: look at hezbollah's operation...
israeli killing innocent people (well ucant avoid that)
hezbollah was forced to target israeli civilians bcuz their PM just wouldnt understand otehrwise....
no lebanese battled agaisnt eachothers
no hezbollah or lebanese leaders were captured
we still have a government with full international support...
and more and more people are with hezbollah now and support them..

No, killing innocent civilians, as Pebble pointed out, is unjustified, whether Hizbullah and the Lebanese govt. have international support or not.

Quote: u palestini people just dont learn.... hopefully sumwhere in the near future u will....

I'll let that pass.

Varyag wrote: Well enjoy the benefits of your decimated country and mass civilian and hezbollah losses, courtesy of Israel, brought to you by Hezbollah, 20 years stupid and still not getting any smarter

You mean Hizbullah? Israel is 50 years immature and not growing up more, if you ask me. Israel just won't hold itself accountable, and people like YOU just like to defend it, even in cases when innocents are killed explicitly by I"D"F.

[Varyag]

Saracen wrote: Varyag wrote: Well enjoy the benefits of your decimated country and mass civilian and hezbollah losses, courtesy of Israel, brought to you by Hezbollah, 20 years stupid and still not getting any smarter

You mean Hizbullah? Israel is 50 years immature and not growing up more, if you ask me. Israel just won't hold itself accountable, and people like YOU just like to defend it, even in cases when innocents are killed explicitly by I"D"F.

If the people running Israel 50 years ago (Irgun, Lehi, Haganah) were still running it today, Lebanon would be an absolute ruin and the Gaza and the West Bank would be part of Israel. I don't justify actions by Israel, I simply look at the world throught a realpolitik lens, look that up if you dont know what it means.

[Varyag]

Saracen wrote: I am anti-Israel and neutral with regards to Hizbullah. I'm not anti-Israeli:

You certainly are confused, I'll give you that.

[superskippy]

Quote: I didn't do it. Look at the parliamentarians and how Fatah is undermining the PA's authority.

How are they undermining their authority? The Hamas led PA is undermining their own authority as I recall they were the ones who killed 8 of your people and wounded 60 others in the streets of Gaza today during a protests. Yes Fatah and Hamas were at opposition with each other, but it is a telling sign when we see who's side the protesters were on which is obvious to all.

Quote: And Palestinians killing Palestinians... are you talking about the protests against Hamas for the salaries? What do you expect? Hamas is trying its best, but what is happening in Palestine is indeed messy, and I don't like it.

Hamas has crippled Palestine, it's rule and hardline have prevented even the slightest amount of aid to get through and it is crushing the Palestinians and the Palestinians are angry. The protesters werent protesting Fatah Saracen they were in arms with Fatah protesting and engaging Hamas. Hamas killed 8 people and wounded 60 others a mighty high casualty rate for a protest though in fairness the casualties also came from exchanges of gunfire when Hamas moved on the protesting Fatah militiamen.

Dont plead pity on the part of Hamas, this is not about Israel and Hamas this is about how the world has greeted Hamas. The US, the EU, Canada, and other funders of the PA have taken a stand against Hamas for refusing to soften it's stance or accept previous agreements.

From the BBC Quote: In Gaza City, Hamas fighters with guns and clubs moved into a crowd of civilian and police protesters gathered near the Palestinian parliament

Further brought to a head by Hamas engagements with Fatah and gunbattles breaking out across Gaza.

[Saracen]

superskippy wrote: Hamas has crippled Palestine, it's rule and hardline have prevented even the slightest amount of aid to get through and it is crushing the Palestinians and the Palestinians are angry. The protesters werent protesting Fatah Saracen they were in arms with Fatah protesting and engaging Hamas. Hamas killed 8 people and wounded 60 others a mighty high casualty rate for a protest though in fairness the casualties also came from exchanges of gunfire when Hamas moved on the protesting Fatah militiamen.

Dont plead pity on the part of Hamas, this is not about Israel and Hamas this is about how the world has greeted Hamas. The US, the EU, Canada, and other funders of the PA have taken a stand against Hamas for refusing to soften it's stance or accept previous agreements.

I'll admit that Fatah and Hamas have dirty hands, and I disagree with how both of them are going about forming this so-called "unity" government.

I'm just too pessimistic these days to post, skip. Sorry... :-|

[ToonArmyIsComing]

Saracen wrote: I'll admit that Fatah and Hamas have dirty hands, and I disagree with how both of them are going about forming this so-called "unity" government.

I'm just too pessimistic these days to post, skip. Sorry... :-|

Hamas is in an ideological deadlock right now if you ask me and the Hamas leadership inside Gaza, the Hamas leadership in Israeli prisons, and the Hamas leadership outside of Palestine are further apart than ever.

[Pebble]

ALi* wrote: Pebble wrote: ALi* wrote: it isnt justified to kill civilians.... but just like WW2 when hitler just couldnt stop killing innocent civilians the allies air bombed DREST in germany in february 1945 killing 150 000 innocent people in one day.
you are forced to act the same especially when you find its the only way the ennemy will stop
(hitler stopped in 1945) ( olmert stopped in 2006) i hope u know wat i mean...
when ur dealing with a criminal (at war) u have to put ur religious beliefs (wich tell us to avoid innocent people aside).

Firstly, Dresden has nothing to do with this debate. Secondly, Olmert was not stopped by Hezbollah's killing of Israeli civilians, but by the IDF's failures. In actuality shelling Israeli towns probably contributed to the pressure to keep the campaign going.

if the reason wasnt israeli people getting killed and cities being destroyed then what was the reason? military failure??? well the idf could have continued the operation until military success is achieved!! right??
therefore there must have been another reason for israel to stop he war wich is israeli security in danger.

The reasons were principally the IDF's failures, international pressure and a large Lebanese civilian casualties. The death of Israeli citizens has little to do with it.

Quote: Pebble wrote:
Quote: and in the case of the captured soldier in palestine... i didnt say they shouldnt have done it its wrong... im saying they should have been more sure they could defend such act and limit the losses.

Is Hezbollah therefore responsible for all of the economic losses in Lebanon following their kidnappings?

in a way.... ya of course... i mean if they didnt kidnap the 2 soldiers lebanon would have earned sumwhere near 4billion dollars in tourism revenues..... but also hezbollah is responsible for arab countries growing support and interrests to rebuild lebanon.

Reconstruction work that would not have been necessary without Hezbollah's provocation?

Quote: the lebanese governemnt have more money than before 12th july.

Have you got a cost benefit analysis for that based on losses in revenue from tourism and trade + the const of reconstruction?

Quote: in other aspects lebanon has rather benefit than loose from this war:
- more internationnal support

That could have been won in so many more ways. In any case, you have the IDF to thank for that not Hezbollah.

Quote: - army in the south

Explain what you mean here, how is this an advantage?

Quote: - lebanese prisonners back

I wasn't aware that the prisoners had been released?

Quote: - hezbollah is still armed and israel has givven a reason to keep its weappons

How on earth does that help Lebanon when we've already established that Hezbollah and their 'weapons' are on of the parties responsible for the recent troubles.

Quote: - not even one arab soul is still scared from israel now

I would really beg to differ.

Quote: do u want me to go thru all the list???

Yes. Add more as you see fit.

[ALi*]

Pebble wrote: ALi* wrote: Pebble wrote: ALi* wrote: it isnt justified to kill civilians.... but just like WW2 when hitler just couldnt stop killing innocent civilians the allies air bombed DREST in germany in february 1945 killing 150 000 innocent people in one day.
you are forced to act the same especially when you find its the only way the ennemy will stop
(hitler stopped in 1945) ( olmert stopped in 2006) i hope u know wat i mean...
when ur dealing with a criminal (at war) u have to put ur religious beliefs (wich tell us to avoid innocent people aside).

Firstly, Dresden has nothing to do with this debate. Secondly, Olmert was not stopped by Hezbollah's killing of Israeli civilians, but by the IDF's failures. In actuality shelling Israeli towns probably contributed to the pressure to keep the campaign going.

if the reason wasnt israeli people getting killed and cities being destroyed then what was the reason? military failure??? well the idf could have continued the operation until military success is achieved!! right??
therefore there must have been another reason for israel to stop he war wich is israeli security in danger.

The reasons were principally the IDF's failures, international pressure and a large Lebanese civilian casualties. The death of Israeli citizens has little to do with it.

read previous post again...
Quote: well the idf could have continued the operation until military success is achieved!! right??
internationnal pressure? on israel? why? or is it that ur convinced what they did was WRONG and criminal now?

Quote: Pebble wrote:
Quote: and in the case of the captured soldier in palestine... i didnt say they shouldnt have done it its wrong... im saying they should have been more sure they could defend such act and limit the losses.

Is Hezbollah therefore responsible for all of the economic losses in Lebanon following their kidnappings?

in a way.... ya of course... i mean if they didnt kidnap the 2 soldiers lebanon would have earned sumwhere near 4billion dollars in tourism revenues..... but also hezbollah is responsible for arab countries growing support and interrests to rebuild lebanon.

Reconstruction work that would not have been necessary without Hezbollah's provocation?

well u know sumtimes you have to sacrifice :( a prisonners free soul is worth anything.

Quote: the lebanese governemnt have more money than before 12th july.

Have you got a cost benefit analysis for that based on losses in revenue from tourism and trade + the const of reconstruction?

man we had -40 billion $ pre-war.... now we have - 46 billion $ post-war...
lebanon have always been like this and will always be like this... however unlike in gaza we manage to pay salaries and live a great life.....

Quote: in other aspects lebanon has rather benefit than loose from this war:
- more internationnal support

That could have been won in so many more ways. In any case, you have the IDF to thank for that not Hezbollah.

well i didnt say the GOAL was to gain internationnal support did i? but still it happened... thank the IDF?? well i dont care ur right if the IDF didnt attack back and internationnal pressure and support was on ur side the two israeli soldiers would have returned by now.... so thanks IDF for making us stronger!

Quote: - army in the south

Explain what you mean here, how is this an advantage?

hello?? the lebanese army in the south? israel will now have one more barrier before thinking to invade lebanon...

Quote: - lebanese prisonners back

I wasn't aware that the prisoners had been released?

but plz tell me ur aware its gonna happen anyway... sooner or later

Quote: - hezbollah is still armed and israel has givven a reason to keep its weappons

How on earth does that help Lebanon when we've already established that Hezbollah and their 'weapons' are on of the parties responsible for the recent troubles.

it helps to defend another barbaric attack on leb....