Political Crossfire Forums

[lilwolf]

Pebble wrote: Quote: Party of God (Hezbollah) 14

From your link.


Yep the Hezbollah.....terrorists.

www.cdi.org/terrorism/hezbollah.cfm


Granted this was 2002 but looking at them they have not changed much. Still are a terrorist outfit, that need removed either by choice or force from Lebanon and this way they alnd and nation can go back to the people.

[superskippy]

With Hezbollah's string of international terrorist attacks to it's name there is no room to argue that they arent a terrorist organization.

[Varyag]

Pebble wrote: ALi* wrote: Pebble wrote: Quote: Party of God (Hezbollah) 14

From your link.

well ya also from my post... wats wrong?

read the link again... mayeb ull understand why 14 is a high number.

The political arm of Hezbollah has 14 seats, end of. I don't see what you're getting at...

:lol: He's in damage control mode, technically speaking muslims can attain 64 of those 128 seats, Hezbollah has 14/64 seats, and there's nothing stoping other muslim sects or christians from running under the hezbollah banner, thus 14/128 is a realistic guage of the kind of support hezbollah attracts in lebanon. Its no different from Ali's lying about 1.5 million people turning out for the hezbollah rally when it was only 150000.

Ali just give up, your lying isn't going to fool anyone with a brain and basic command of the google search engine.

[ALi*]

Quote: technically speaking muslims can attain 64 of those 128 seats
technically.... no!
hezbollah can attain 27 seats (shiaa muslim)
it has 14 and amal has 15..... so 14/27 is good!

now the 1,5 million it wasnt all hezbollah supporters there was AMAL - FPM - Marada - Democratic party - and others.....

shiites in leb are not 1.5 million but theyr r 30% of the lebanese....
99% of shiites are pro hezbollah/AMAL therefore it is popular.... especially when u add druz and christian supporters and allies.;)

anyway im not planing to discuss with u anymore u dont seem to understand logic....
i gave u the link... apparently u didnt even open it.

[Saracen]

Varyag wrote: oh my, only 20%? :lol: That makes it mainstream, not extremist. LF is hardly the only chrsitian, anti-hezbollah party either.

Actually, it IS the only Christian, anti-Hizbullah party, not that I like Hizbullah any more or less. The other Christians in Lebanon are anti-Zionist and pro-Lebanon, something which the LF'ers aren't: they'd rather have a feudalist country than a unified one.

superskippy wrote: With Hezbollah's string of international terrorist attacks to it's name there is no room to argue that they arent a terrorist organization.

I can say the same for the LF and the Israeli Occupation.

[Varyag]

Saracen wrote: Varyag wrote: oh my, only 20%? :lol: That makes it mainstream, not extremist. LF is hardly the only chrsitian, anti-hezbollah party either.

Actually, it IS the only Christian, anti-Hizbullah party, not that I like Hizbullah any more or less. The other Christians in Lebanon are anti-Zionist and pro-Lebanon, something which the LF'ers aren't: they'd rather have a feudalist country than a unified one.

Thats bull and you know it, I have yet to meet one Lebanese Christian who doesen't hate Hezbollah's guts, either here in my country or back in Beirut. Hezbollah are like all muslims, they kill people, prentend that nothing actually happned, and then cry like little babies when they get their ass kicked for it. Is there one muslim on the face of the earth who isn't a complete liar? As the BBC said:

"The conflict has divided Lebanon into two political camps: The Pro-Western March 14th Coalition of Christians, Sunnis and Druze and the Pro-Iranian, Pro-Syrian Shiites."

Stop putting words into Christian Lebanon's mouth, or for that matter into Sunni Lebanon's or anyone else's, Hezbollah is a violent organization didicated to the destruction of Lebanon through their radical Shiite Islam.

[slitedeviance]

Varyag wrote: Is there one muslim on the face of the earth who isn't a complete liar?

Yes.

[ALi*]

A little history about those LF weapons:

LF killed 500-600 Ahrar 1980 - On 7 July Geagea coordinates a bloody operation against a rival Christian faction that cements the Phalangist control of the Lebanese Forces.


1982 LF and Geagea was in the Sabra Shatila massacre Approximately 1,700 Palestinians killed at the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps in 1982. An unknown number of others killed during the Lebanese Civil War.

1982 On the night of 14 September the Israeli's decide to enter West Beirut in order to, in the words of Israeli Prime Minister Menahem Begin, "protect the Muslims from the vengeance of the Lebanese Forces (Phalangists)".

1982 - After sabra and Shatila: Eitan then flies to Beirut and tells the Phalangists that they will be responsible for the operation within the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps. Hobeika, who by now is the Lebanese Forces' principal military liaison officer to the IDF, is to be the overall commander of the Phalangist militia.

1985 - On 16 February the IDF begins a staged withdrawal from its remaining positions in Lebanon, moving troops from the northern front at the Awwali River to south of the Litani River. The Lebanese Army fills the vacuum but is unable to prevent the onset of fighting between Lebanese Forces Phalangists and a Palestinian-Druze-Shia coalition. The Lebanese Forces Phalangists are defeated and Christian civilians forced to flee the area.

1985 - In March Lebanese Forces organises an attempt to assassinate Hezbollah leader Muhammad Hussein Fadlallah, reportedly at the request of the CIA, which blames Fadlallah for the 1983 bombing of the headquarters of US and French forces that killed 298.

1986 - On 27 September a 300-man force loyal to Hobeika launch an unsuccessful attack across the Green Line from Muslim West Beirut against the rival Phalangists in East Beirut. Back in Zahlah, Hobeika will later survive an assassination attempt organised by the Lebanese Forces (samir Geagea and Ghassan touma) Phalangist rivals in zahle.

1989 - Aoun launches a "war of liberation" against the Syrians and their allies. Meanwhile, the Arab League appoints a committee to try to find a solution to the conflict, a move that leads to a meeting of Lebanese parliamentarians in Ta'if, Saudi Arabia.

On 4 November Lebanese parliamentarians approve the Ta'if Agreement for a National Reconciliation Charter. Under the charter the Lebanese constitution will be amended to give Muslims increased power. Parliamentary seats are divided equally between Lebanese Forces Christians and Muslims and the Shia speaker becomes part of the executive, along with the Maronite president and Sunni prime minister.

The agreement also states that "Lebanon is linked to Syria by distinctive ties deriving strength from kinship, history, and common interests."

Under the supervision of the Syrian military, the parliament elects Syrian sympathiser Elias Hrawi as president.

More info: Among other incidents, Samir Geagea 1978 assassination of Zghorta MP Tony Franjieh, the assassinations of several rival figures in the Lebanese Forces, an attempt to assassinate Druze militia leader Walid Jumblatt, the execution of four Iranian diplomats abducted by the Lebanese Forces in 1982, the assassination of Bashir Gemayel in the 1982, and the attempted assassination of Selim al-Hoss in 1984.

Lebanese Forces is already under scrutiny in investigations opened into the 1978 assassination of Zghorta Tony Franjieh and a 1985 car bomb attack that severely injured Sidon MP Mustafa Saad and killed his daughter, Natasha. An investigation will also be opened into corruption at the ministry of electricity and water resources.

to be cont,,,,

to be cont....

The chrisitians they mention on this post already have ISRAELI Weapons, tanks, M113, Morters, etc... let us admit it ! or we will post out pictures to show people who they are.

We have to split the christians 2 Part's, Part supported by 70% from the chrisitians not armed they called FPMrs (Tayyar), and Part 10% is armed to the the head they been called LF (lebanese Forces) the different between the 2 is:

FPM work hard for lebanon against all foriegn army.Never been armed.

LF work hard against lebanon with all Foriegn armys example 1989-90 work with Syrians to Fight GMA and the Lebanese Army been Suicide on the walls in amchit.

LF been armed, trained by Israeli Forces, From 1978 until 1990
They did few massacres SABRA and SHATILA, tal al zaa'tar, karantina, etc...

so the Party that is been Armed now is a millitia Against Goverment, and they hate the lebanese army.
I have this theory: Who ever killed its own civillians and Assassinate them those should be called terrorrists



1986-1987
Lebaese Forces Leader Samir Geagea and Ghassan Touma (Chief Intelligence) , persuaded Father Samih to stuff a big explosive device at the Greek Catholic Bishopric, where Hobeika usually met his allies. Touma and Samih coordinated through a transmitter and secret agents. On D-Day, Hobeika had a meeting at 5:00 p.m. with Monsignor Haddad, Mr Elie Ferzli and Mr Khalil Hraoui at Zahleh Bishopric. After a secret meeting with Mrs. Habib El Primo. Hobeika put the meeting off to 7:00 p.m.

Hobeika felt uneasy and anxious, and asked who it was. Monsignor Haddad replied, "Father Samih is inquiring if you're here", and the bomb went off. The Greek Catholic Bishopric has been exploded severely destroyed, the explosion was so powerful.
No one was spared, they were all buried under the rubble. Khalil Hraoui, conscious but half covered up, Elie Ferzli unconscious and his face bleeding from a bad cut near the mouth, Monsignor Haddad, his head protruding from the collapsed walls, Elie Hobeika was out of sight, buried under the rabbles.
suspect: Father Samih and he admit that the Lebanese Forces Leader Samir GeaGea and his (Chief Intelligence) Touma ask him to place the explosives.

Witness: Elie Frezli
Witness: Khalil Hrawi
Witness: MGR Andre Haddad

************************************************** **
1990 January 19, Elias Zayek Assasination

Leader of the Christian Phalange party of Lebanon was shot and killed in Byblos. Samir Geagea, leader of the of the Lebanese Forces militia, was later accused and convicted (5/20/96) of the murder.
************************************************** **
1987 June 1 Rashid Karami Assassination

Karami was killed after a bomb was placed in his helicopter en route to Beirut. His helicopter was brought down by sabotage as part of an assassination plot. He was succeeded by Selim al-Hoss. In 1999, Samir Geagea and 10 other members of the Lebanese Forces, a Christian militia group which had absorbed the Phalange, were convicted of Karami's murder and given long prison terms, in a trial criticized by Amnesty International.


this is the people this thread is all about....

[Saracen]

Varyag wrote: Thats bull and you know it, I have yet to meet one Lebanese Christian who doesen't hate Hezbollah's guts, either here in my country or back in Beirut. Hezbollah are like all muslims, they kill people, prentend that nothing actually happned, and then cry like little babies when they get their ass kicked for it. Is there one muslim on the face of the earth who isn't a complete liar? As the BBC said:

"The conflict has divided Lebanon into two political camps: The Pro-Western March 14th Coalition of Christians, Sunnis and Druze and the Pro-Iranian, Pro-Syrian Shiites."

Stop putting words into Christian Lebanon's mouth, or for that matter into Sunni Lebanon's or anyone else's, Hezbollah is a violent organization didicated to the destruction of Lebanon through their radical Shiite Islam.

That's collectivist and bull, and you know it. There are in fact a number of Shiites who are anti-Hizbullah, though they're quite a few. However, a large portion of Christians in Lebanon and Syria do support Hizbullah. ALi brought up some of the polls indicative of this earlier.

I don't like Hizbullah that much either, but their defense of Lebanon was the lesser of two evils. Israel definitely outdid itself this time by destroying Lebanese homes and livelihoods, but Hizbullah, if you want to go by the "moral superiority" argument, is "morally superior": they defended their nation. Israel just attacked it.

ALi wrote: A little history about those LF weapons:

LF killed 500-600 Ahrar 1980 - On 7 July Geagea coordinates a bloody operation against a rival Christian faction that cements the Phalangist control of the Lebanese Forces.


1982 LF and Geagea was in the Sabra Shatila massacre Approximately 1,700 Palestinians killed at the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps in 1982. An unknown number of others killed during the Lebanese Civil War.

1982 On the night of 14 September the Israeli's decide to enter West Beirut in order to, in the words of Israeli Prime Minister Menahem Begin, "protect the Muslims from the vengeance of the Lebanese Forces (Phalangists)".

1982 - After sabra and Shatila: Eitan then flies to Beirut and tells the Phalangists that they will be responsible for the operation within the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps. Hobeika, who by now is the Lebanese Forces' principal military liaison officer to the IDF, is to be the overall commander of the Phalangist militia.

1985 - On 16 February the IDF begins a staged withdrawal from its remaining positions in Lebanon, moving troops from the northern front at the Awwali River to south of the Litani River. The Lebanese Army fills the vacuum but is unable to prevent the onset of fighting between Lebanese Forces Phalangists and a Palestinian-Druze-Shia coalition. The Lebanese Forces Phalangists are defeated and Christian civilians forced to flee the area.

1985 - In March Lebanese Forces organises an attempt to assassinate Hezbollah leader Muhammad Hussein Fadlallah, reportedly at the request of the CIA, which blames Fadlallah for the 1983 bombing of the headquarters of US and French forces that killed 298.

1986 - On 27 September a 300-man force loyal to Hobeika launch an unsuccessful attack across the Green Line from Muslim West Beirut against the rival Phalangists in East Beirut. Back in Zahlah, Hobeika will later survive an assassination attempt organised by the Lebanese Forces (samir Geagea and Ghassan touma) Phalangist rivals in zahle.

1989 - Aoun launches a "war of liberation" against the Syrians and their allies. Meanwhile, the Arab League appoints a committee to try to find a solution to the conflict, a move that leads to a meeting of Lebanese parliamentarians in Ta'if, Saudi Arabia.

On 4 November Lebanese parliamentarians approve the Ta'if Agreement for a National Reconciliation Charter. Under the charter the Lebanese constitution will be amended to give Muslims increased power. Parliamentary seats are divided equally between Lebanese Forces Christians and Muslims and the Shia speaker becomes part of the executive, along with the Maronite president and Sunni prime minister.

The agreement also states that "Lebanon is linked to Syria by distinctive ties deriving strength from kinship, history, and common interests."

Under the supervision of the Syrian military, the parliament elects Syrian sympathiser Elias Hrawi as president.

More info: Among other incidents, Samir Geagea 1978 assassination of Zghorta MP Tony Franjieh, the assassinations of several rival figures in the Lebanese Forces, an attempt to assassinate Druze militia leader Walid Jumblatt, the execution of four Iranian diplomats abducted by the Lebanese Forces in 1982, the assassination of Bashir Gemayel in the 1982, and the attempted assassination of Selim al-Hoss in 1984.

Lebanese Forces is already under scrutiny in investigations opened into the 1978 assassination of Zghorta Tony Franjieh and a 1985 car bomb attack that severely injured Sidon MP Mustafa Saad and killed his daughter, Natasha. An investigation will also be opened into corruption at the ministry of electricity and water resources.

to be cont,,,,

to be cont....

The chrisitians they mention on this post already have ISRAELI Weapons, tanks, M113, Morters, etc... let us admit it ! or we will post out pictures to show people who they are.

We have to split the christians 2 Part's, Part supported by 70% from the chrisitians not armed they called FPMrs (Tayyar), and Part 10% is armed to the the head they been called LF (lebanese Forces) the different between the 2 is:

FPM work hard for lebanon against all foriegn army.Never been armed.

LF work hard against lebanon with all Foriegn armys example 1989-90 work with Syrians to Fight GMA and the Lebanese Army been Suicide on the walls in amchit.

LF been armed, trained by Israeli Forces, From 1978 until 1990
They did few massacres SABRA and SHATILA, tal al zaa'tar, karantina, etc...

so the Party that is been Armed now is a millitia Against Goverment, and they hate the lebanese army.
I have this theory: Who ever killed its own civillians and Assassinate them those should be called terrorrists



1986-1987
Lebaese Forces Leader Samir Geagea and Ghassan Touma (Chief Intelligence) , persuaded Father Samih to stuff a big explosive device at the Greek Catholic Bishopric, where Hobeika usually met his allies. Touma and Samih coordinated through a transmitter and secret agents. On D-Day, Hobeika had a meeting at 5:00 p.m. with Monsignor Haddad, Mr Elie Ferzli and Mr Khalil Hraoui at Zahleh Bishopric. After a secret meeting with Mrs. Habib El Primo. Hobeika put the meeting off to 7:00 p.m.

Hobeika felt uneasy and anxious, and asked who it was. Monsignor Haddad replied, "Father Samih is inquiring if you're here", and the bomb went off. The Greek Catholic Bishopric has been exploded severely destroyed, the explosion was so powerful.
No one was spared, they were all buried under the rubble. Khalil Hraoui, conscious but half covered up, Elie Ferzli unconscious and his face bleeding from a bad cut near the mouth, Monsignor Haddad, his head protruding from the collapsed walls, Elie Hobeika was out of sight, buried under the rabbles.
suspect: Father Samih and he admit that the Lebanese Forces Leader Samir GeaGea and his (Chief Intelligence) Touma ask him to place the explosives.

Witness: Elie Frezli
Witness: Khalil Hrawi
Witness: MGR Andre Haddad

************************************************** **
1990 January 19, Elias Zayek Assasination

Leader of the Christian Phalange party of Lebanon was shot and killed in Byblos. Samir Geagea, leader of the of the Lebanese Forces militia, was later accused and convicted (5/20/96) of the murder.
************************************************** **
1987 June 1 Rashid Karami Assassination

Karami was killed after a bomb was placed in his helicopter en route to Beirut. His helicopter was brought down by sabotage as part of an assassination plot. He was succeeded by Selim al-Hoss. In 1999, Samir Geagea and 10 other members of the Lebanese Forces, a Christian militia group which had absorbed the Phalange, were convicted of Karami's murder and given long prison terms, in a trial criticized by Amnesty International.


this is the people this thread is all about....

I like this list, but can you please give me the source, ALi?

[Varyag]

Saracen wrote: Varyag wrote: Thats bull and you know it, I have yet to meet one Lebanese Christian who doesen't hate Hezbollah's guts, either here in my country or back in Beirut. Hezbollah are like all muslims, they kill people, prentend that nothing actually happned, and then cry like little babies when they get their ass kicked for it. Is there one muslim on the face of the earth who isn't a complete liar? As the BBC said:

"The conflict has divided Lebanon into two political camps: The Pro-Western March 14th Coalition of Christians, Sunnis and Druze and the Pro-Iranian, Pro-Syrian Shiites."

Stop putting words into Christian Lebanon's mouth, or for that matter into Sunni Lebanon's or anyone else's, Hezbollah is a violent organization didicated to the destruction of Lebanon through their radical Shiite Islam.

That's collectivist and bull, and you know it. There are in fact a number of Shiites who are anti-Hizbullah, though they're quite a few. However, a large portion of Christians in Lebanon and Syria do support Hizbullah. ALi brought up some of the polls indicative of this earlier.

You obviously have not seen my other topic

Quote: Beirut- Lebanese are split down the middle on U.N. demands for the disarmament of Hezbollah following the month-long war between Israel and the group, a poll published Monday suggested.

The poll by IPSOS for the French-language daily L'Orient-Le Jour found 51 percent of respondents supported the group's disarmament, with 49 percent against, a difference within the survey's margin of error.

However, the poll found a wide divergence of views among Lebanon's various religious communities.

Among the Shiite community -- Lebanon's largest and the support base for Hezbollah -- the poll found 84 percent of respondents wanted the group to keep its weapons.

But among the Druze and Christian communities, 79 percent and 77 percent respectively wanted the group to surrender its arsenal.

Among the Sunni community, the poll found a slender majority of 54 percent in favor of the group disarming.

"This shows that a gap exists on this issue between the Shiite community and the Christians and Druze while the Sunni position is much more nuanced," the newspaper said.

It said the poll found that Hezbollah was more popular among people aged 30 years or younger and in regions with a Shiite majority.

As to the deployment of extra U.N. troops in south Lebanon to enforce a two-week-old ceasefire that ended the 34-day war between Israel and Hezbollah, the majority of respondents -- 81 percent -- said they favored such a force.

However, 67 percent said they believed the U.N. Interim Force in Lebanon should act as observers rather than an intervention force.

The poll found that only 38 percent of those questioned feared a new civil war in Lebanon as a result of the recent conflict as opposed to 62 percent who thought otherwise.

The poll was conducted between August 14 and 17 among a representative sample of 600 men and women drawn from the country's various communities.

Picture: A Lebanese woman looks at destruction from the balcony of her apartment in southern Beirut , which was hit hardest by Israeli air force

Source: Naharnet

http://yalibnan.com/site/archives/2006/08/post_18.php

Now you were saying?

Quote: I don't like Hizbullah that much either, but their defense of Lebanon was the lesser of two evils. Israel definitely outdid itself this time by destroying Lebanese homes and livelihoods, but Hizbullah, if you want to go by the "moral superiority" argument, is "morally superior": they defended their nation. Israel just attacked it.

Except that Hezbollah was the entire reason those Israeli bombs came down in the first place, and a majority of Lebanese recognize this. Also Hezbollah fired the first shots and killed the first people, they caused this entire mess.

[Saracen]

Varyag wrote: You obviously have not seen my other topic

I haven't cited any polls, but you do realize the inaccuracy of polls, and how people view Hizbullah? Just because people want Hizbullah disarmed doesn't mean they don't support it. I don't support Hizbullah, but I would support a dismantlement of its militia and the INCORPORATION of that militia into the Lebanese Army, which is what a good portion of the Lebanese might want as well, especially those who are patriotic to their nation and believe in a united Lebanon.

Quote: Except that Hezbollah was the entire reason those Israeli bombs came down in the first place, and a majority of Lebanese recognize this. Also Hezbollah fired the first shots and killed the first people, they caused this entire mess.

No. Israel did. Israel dropped those bombs and killed the Lebanese, not Hizbullah. It wasn't in the people's intentions or fault to suffer from this invasion. By your logic, if Israel attacks Hamas militants, then the Palestinians are justified if they attack Tel Aviv with rockets.

Please, don't use that logic. It is very dangerous.

[Varyag]

Saracen wrote: Varyag wrote: You obviously have not seen my other topic

I haven't cited any polls, but you do realize the inaccuracy of polls, and how people view Hizbullah?

Well there is actually a whole field called statistics dedicated to things like this, from inference and using standard statistics theory, that poll is fairly accurate.

Quote: Just because people want Hizbullah disarmed doesn't mean they don't support it.

Funny how I knew you were going to say that, if one support Hezbollah and what recently happned in Lebanon (due to Hezbollah), it would be quite unlikely, if not impossible that one would be inclined to support the disarmamant of this group, thats pure logic.

Quote: I don't support Hizbullah, but I would support a dismantlement of its militia and the INCORPORATION of that militia into the Lebanese Army,

Rubbish, Hezbollah are poor soldiers, they have little in the way of military value to a fighting force, drafting thosands of radical islamists (becuase muslims are the only ones who support Hezbollah) into the army isn't good for the army or Lebanon, the whole point of having an effective, obedient, non-HR violating fighting force depends on screening out the lunatics before they get in, not drafting thousands of them.

Quote: which is what a good portion of the Lebanese might want as well, especially those who are patriotic to their nation and believe in a united Lebanon.

United under muslim Hezbollah rule, which the christians, druze and a majority of sunni muslims do not want, you fail to appreciate just how much the christians and other groups have suffered in Lebanon due to muslims and their bullsh*t religious causes, the recent conflict being the latest example, and I'm sure there will be a next time when Iran for whatever reason tells Hezbollah to provoke the IDF again.

Quote: Quote: Except that Hezbollah was the entire reason those Israeli bombs came down in the first place, and a majority of Lebanese recognize this. Also Hezbollah fired the first shots and killed the first people, they caused this entire mess.

No. Israel did. Israel dropped those bombs and killed the Lebanese, not Hizbullah. It wasn't in the people's intentions or fault to suffer from this invasion. By your logic, if Israel attacks Hamas militants, then the Palestinians are justified if they attack Tel Aviv with rockets.

Hezbollah was lobbing katyusha rockets into Israeili civlian areas and kidnapping IDF soldiers weeks before the IDF or the Israeli airforce did anything, infact the only reason the Leabanese Army couldn't take action against Hezbollah is becuase it would make the high and mighty muslims all upset, and then muslims would go crazy again and start another civil war.

Quote: Please, don't use that logic. It is very dangerous.

Dangerous to muslims, whose cause depends on illogic.

[Saracen]

Varyag wrote: Well there is actually a whole field called statistics dedicated to things like this, from inference and using standard statistics theory, that poll is fairly accurate.

Yet, not for the reasons that you might think they want Hizbullah disarmed.

Quote: Funny how I knew you were going to say that, if one support Hezbollah and what recently happned in Lebanon (due to Hezbollah), it would be quite unlikely, if not impossible that one would be inclined to support the disarmamant of this group, thats pure logic.

What happened in Lebanon was Israel's fault. Israel incited Hizbullah into kidnapping these two soldiers, and there is evidence, even according to this pro-Israeli article, that Israel was planning to level Lebanon. It wasn't Hizbullah's fault that Lebanon was destroyed almost in its entirety. What happened was really a matter of Israel controlling itself, and Israel, while it controls many assets in the region, can't control its temper.

Israel's land mines, prisoners, violation of Lebanese air space and sovereignity... what do you expect? Hizbullah took those soldiers as bargaining chips, and in the end, Israel went with full force and attacked CIVILIAN areas. Don't tell me that Hizbullah soldiers hid amongst civilians, because that stuff is just not true.

Quote: Rubbish, Hezbollah are poor soldiers, they have little in the way of military value to a fighting force, drafting thosands of radical islamists (becuase muslims are the only ones who support Hezbollah) into the army isn't good for the army or Lebanon, the whole point of having an effective, obedient, non-HR violating fighting force depends on screening out the lunatics before they get in, not drafting thousands of them.

Not really. You're assuming that all Hizbullah soldiers are just lunatics, whereas in fact they chose to enroll into Hizbullah themselves. You take a look at Israel and how it outrightly violated Lebanese human rights, more than Hizbullah did, yet you still shift your focus and blame Lebanon for defending itself.

And I stand by what I said: I don't support Hizbullah, nor do I oppose it. What they did by helping the Lebanese after the war was better than what the Lebanese government, which is made up of puppets to the Zionist cause. Hizbullah's militia must be disarmed after the Israelis comply with the Lebanese demands. That way, the Hizbullah soldiers won't have anything to fight about.

Quote: United under muslim Hezbollah rule, which the christians, druze and a majority of sunni muslims do not want, you fail to appreciate just how much the christians and other groups have suffered in Lebanon due to muslims and their bullsh*t religious causes, the recent conflict being the latest example, and I'm sure there will be a next time when Iran for whatever reason tells Hezbollah to provoke the IDF again.

Christians are co-existing in Lebanon with their Muslim and Druze brethren. There is nothing religious about attacking Israel or invading Lebanon. Everything in the REAL WORLD happens for a political reason, Varyag. Hizbullah didn't provoke Israel. Israel provoked Hizbullah, which captured the 2 soldiers. The onslaught against innocent Gaza civilians was also a reason for attacking those Israeli soldiers and taking two of them as bargaining chips.

Quote: Hezbollah was lobbing katyusha rockets into Israeili civlian areas and kidnapping IDF soldiers weeks before the IDF or the Israeli airforce did anything, infact the only reason the Leabanese Army couldn't take action against Hezbollah is becuase it would make the high and mighty muslims all upset, and then muslims would go crazy again and start another civil war.

The day after the kidnapping happened, Israel launched the full-scale invasion.

Wikipedia wrote: At around 9:00 AM local time (06:00 UTC), on 12 July 2006, Hezbollah initiated a diversionary Katyusha rocket and mortar attack on Israeli military positions and border villages. At the same time, a ground contingent of Hezbollah crossed the border into Israeli territory and attacked two Israeli armoured Humvees patrolling on the Israeli side of the Israel-Lebanon border, near the village of Zar'it, killing three, injuring two, and capturing two Israeli soldiers.[21][22] Five more Israeli soldiers were killed later on the Lebanese side of the border during an attempt to rescue the two kidnapped soldiers.

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert described the capture of the soldiers as an "act of war" by Lebanon[25], said that Israel was attacked by a sovereign country[26], and promised Lebanon a "very painful and far-reaching response".[27] Israel quickly blamed the Lebanese government for the raid, as it was carried out from Lebanese territory and Hezbollah had two ministers serving in the Lebanese cabinet at that time.[28] The Israel Defense Forces began hammering Lebanon with artillery and airstrikes hours before the Israeli Cabinet met to discuss a response. Israel's chief of staff Lt. Gen. Dan Halutz said "If the soldiers are not returned, we will turn Lebanon's clock back 20 years" and the head of Israel's Northern Command Maj. Gen. Udi Adam said "This affair is between Israel and the state of Lebanon. Where to attack? Once it is inside Lebanon, everything is legitimate -- not just southern Lebanon, not just the line of Hezbollah posts."

This same day the Israeli Cabinet authorized "severe and harsh" retaliation on Lebanon.[29] In response, Lebanese Prime Minister Fouad Siniora denied any knowledge of the raid and stated that he did not condone it.[30][31] An emergency meeting of the Lebanese government reaffirmed this position.[32] Later Prime Minister Olmert explained that "the war [had] started not only by killing eight Israeli soldiers and abducting two, but by shooting Katyusha and other rockets on the northern cities of Israel on that same morning. Indiscriminately."[33] A retired Israeli Army Colonel explained that the rationale behind the attack was to create a rift between the Lebanese population and Hezbollah supporters by exacting a heavy price from the elite in Beirut.[34

So, what happened in effect was that Israel attacked ALL of Lebanon out of the act of Hizbullah soldiers against specifically military targets. More innocent civilians started dying in Lebanon after the early morning operation, and civilians were the ones killed, not Hizbullah militants, in the majority. Don't try to switch blame from Israel. While Hizbullah is guilty of attacking innocent Israelis by lobbing Katyushas into Israeli villages, Israel turned out to be no better than this "savage" "enemy".

Quote: Dangerous to muslims, whose cause depends on illogic.

I suggest you take this hateful trash language outside these boards. Your logic is dangerous to Muslims who are humanists, like myself.

[Varyag]

Saracen wrote: Varyag wrote: Well there is actually a whole field called statistics dedicated to things like this, from inference and using standard statistics theory, that poll is fairly accurate.

Yet, not for the reasons that you might think they want Hizbullah disarmed.

Ok then why would a Hezbollah supporter preach disarmament, or a Hezbollah opponent not preach disarmament? You have to recognize that poll was asking in a very clever way something that was a little too early to ask of the Lebanese when that poll was conducted.

Quote: Quote: Funny how I knew you were going to say that, if one support Hezbollah and what recently happned in Lebanon (due to Hezbollah), it would be quite unlikely, if not impossible that one would be inclined to support the disarmamant of this group, thats pure logic.

What happened in Lebanon was Israel's fault. Israel incited Hizbullah into kidnapping these two soldiers,

Right Israel "made" Hezbollah kidnap those soldiers, just like they made Hezbollah launch katyushas at those apartment buildings. What an absolute load of s**t, I hope that deep down you yourself recognize what really happned, and just lying on here to support your precious Hezbollah.

Quote: and there is evidence, even according to this pro-Israeli article,

Pro-Israeli in San Francisco? :lol: Man you are sounding stupider by the word.

Quote: that Israel was planning to level Lebanon. It wasn't Hizbullah's fault that Lebanon was destroyed almost in its entirety. What happened was really a matter of Israel controlling itself, and Israel, while it controls many assets in the region, can't control its temper.

1. Israel barely scraped Lebanon in war terms.
2. It was all Hezbollahs actions that got the whole thing started

Quote: Israel's land mines, prisoners, violation of Lebanese air space and sovereignity... what do you expect? Hizbullah took those soldiers as bargaining chips, and in the end, Israel went with full force and attacked CIVILIAN areas. Don't tell me that Hizbullah soldiers hid amongst civilians, because that stuff is just not true.

To you it is, to anybody who actually bases opinions on genuine reality, it is not. You're right about the first bit though, those soldiers were taken as bargaining chips in order to perhaps bargain some terrorists out of Israeli prisons, what Hezhollah obviously does not realize is the Israeli policy dictates that they not bargain with terrorists. Everything bad that happned to lebanon happned after Hezbollah kidnapped IDF soldiers and saturated northern Israel's civilian areas with katyushas.

Quote: Quote: Rubbish, Hezbollah are poor soldiers, they have little in the way of military value to a fighting force, drafting thosands of radical islamists (becuase muslims are the only ones who support Hezbollah) into the army isn't good for the army or Lebanon, the whole point of having an effective, obedient, non-HR violating fighting force depends on screening out the lunatics before they get in, not drafting thousands of them.

Not really. You're assuming that all Hizbullah soldiers are just lunatics, whereas in fact they chose to enroll into Hizbullah themselves.

Well nah :roll: , how else? :lol:

Quote: You take a look at Israel and how it outrightly violated Lebanese human rights, more than Hizbullah did, yet you still shift your focus and blame Lebanon for defending itself.

No the majority of Lebanon do not like Hezbollah (see above), especially when they provoke the Israelis, the Lebanese know they cant afford to provoke Israel, its the stupid muslims that is Hezbollah that just don't get it.

Quote: And I stand by what I said: I don't support Hizbullah, nor do I oppose it.

Neither do I, and Israel too. I do however believe in applying realpolitik to world events, and that means not spouting bs to try to justify my anti-Israeli viewpoint (which you do). Hezbollah provoked Israel into war, civilians in both countries suffered, the end.

Quote: What they did by helping the Lebanese after the war was better than what the Lebanese government, which is made up of puppets to the Zionist cause. Hizbullah's militia must be disarmed after the Israelis comply with the Lebanese demands. That way, the Hizbullah soldiers won't have anything to fight about.

They'll find new things, that I assure you, afterall Hezbollah's ultimate stated aim is the destruction of Israel. Also the Lebanese gov. are not puppets, if they were the Israelis would just use their puppets to destroy Hezbollah. See logic son, logic.

Quote: United under muslim Hezbollah rule, which the christians, druze and a majority of sunni muslims do not want, you fail to appreciate just how much the christians and other groups have suffered in Lebanon due to muslims and their bullsh*t religious causes, the recent conflict being the latest example, and I'm sure there will be a next time when Iran for whatever reason tells Hezbollah to provoke the IDF again.

Christians are co-existing in Lebanon with their Muslim and Druze brethren.[/quote]

Correct, it is the muslims who are cuasing the problems, and not just in Lebanon, but the world over.

Quote: There is nothing religious about attacking Israel or invading Lebanon. Everything in the REAL WORLD happens for a political reason, Varyag.

What Hezbollah has is politics based on religion.

Quote: Hizbullah didn't provoke Israel. Israel provoked Hizbullah, which captured the 2 soldiers. The onslaught against innocent Gaza civilians was also a reason for attacking those Israeli soldiers and taking two of them as bargaining chips.

How? There was a status quo in place, and Hezbollah violated it through those kidnappings and rocket attacks.

Quote: Quote: Hezbollah was lobbing katyusha rockets into Israeili civlian areas and kidnapping IDF soldiers weeks before the IDF or the Israeli airforce did anything, infact the only reason the Leabanese Army couldn't take action against Hezbollah is becuase it would make the high and mighty muslims all upset, and then muslims would go crazy again and start another civil war.

The day after the kidnapping happened, Israel launched the full-scale invasion.

After the second or third kidnapping you mean, kidanppings were on the news weeks before

Quote: So, what happened in effect was that Israel attacked ALL of Lebanon out of the act of Hizbullah soldiers against specifically military targets.

Armm so just becuase an attack on civilians begins as diversionary, that makes it ok? :lol:

Quote: More innocent civilians started dying in Lebanon after the early morning operation, and civilians were the ones killed, not Hizbullah militants, in the majority. Don't try to switch blame from Israel. While Hizbullah is guilty of attacking innocent Israelis by lobbing Katyushas into Israeli villages, Israel turned out to be no better than this "savage" "enemy".

Except that Israel wasn't the one who violated the status-quo and started the whole mess.

Quote: Quote: Dangerous to muslims, whose cause depends on illogic.

I suggest you take this hateful trash language outside these boards. Your logic is dangerous to Muslims who are humanists, like myself.

My logic is dangerous to all muslims, just like any other form of truth :lol:

[Saracen]

Varyag wrote: Ok then why would a Hezbollah supporter preach disarmament, or a Hezbollah opponent not preach disarmament? You have to recognize that poll was asking in a very clever way something that was a little too early to ask of the Lebanese when that poll was conducted.

No, it wasn't. If I supported Hizbullah, I still would support its disarmament and its full augmentation not only into the Lebanese Army, but into Lebanese politics.

Quote: Right Israel "made" Hezbollah kidnap those soldiers, just like they made Hezbollah launch katyushas at those apartment buildings. What an absolute load of s**t, I hope that deep down you yourself recognize what really happned, and just lying on here to support your precious Hezbollah.

I'm not hiding anything. I am pretty much not a supporter nor an opponent of Hizbullah. I just don't care about politicians, really. I am against Hizbullah's idea of feudalism in Lebanon, but in the end, they stood out and pushed Israel back.

I know what Hizbullah did to Israeli towns, and I don't defend it. Yet, you are seemingly content to defend Israeli terrorism on Lebanon. For shame...

Quote: Pro-Israeli in San Francisco? Man you are sounding stupider by the word.

You know, I'd rather not debate with you because of your foul and depraved tactics of debating. It isn't taking you anywhere.

Quote: 1. Israel barely scraped Lebanon in war terms.
2. It was all Hezbollahs actions that got the whole thing started

In war terms, Lebanon's infrastructure suffered a more than 7 BN USD loss, so yeah, Lebanon was screwed, and it was Israel's actions that started this mess. Israel just likes to push and twist the needle until they provoke Hizbullah into doing something. They did the same thing back in 96, when the Israelis left land mines that killed innocent Lebanese, and still do to this day.

Quote: To you it is, to anybody who actually bases opinions on genuine reality, it is not. You're right about the first bit though, those soldiers were taken as bargaining chips in order to perhaps bargain some terrorists out of Israeli prisons, what Hezhollah obviously does not realize is the Israeli policy dictates that they not bargain with terrorists. Everything bad that happned to lebanon happned after Hezbollah kidnapped IDF soldiers and saturated northern Israel's civilian areas with katyushas.

Ya know, a lot of people know that Israel is a terrorist state. And yet, Hizbullah wanted to bargain with them. Don't give me the "negotiate with terrorists" bulls**t: Israel does not define who's the terrorist and who isn't because Israel, Varyag, is not moral. And yes, to me and many people, Hizbullah did not start the war, but they were provoked.

Quote: Well nah , how else?

It's a good thing, too, that we don't collectivize in such a racist and denigratory manner like you do, even if you consider it to be "the truth", which it isn't, but we have yet to consider Israeli soldiers LuNaTiCs, even though many of them who shelled and bombed Lebanon committed outright acts of terrorism and lunacy.

Quote: No the majority of Lebanon do not like Hezbollah (see above), especially when they provoke the Israelis, the Lebanese know they cant afford to provoke Israel, its the stupid muslims that is Hezbollah that just don't get it.

No, they didn't. It was Israel's fault, because it was Israel that hammered Lebanon. Hizbullah was PROVOKED by Israel to kidnap the 2 soldiers. The Lebanese government was just another Zionist puppet, and Israel obviously doesn't respect its neighbors. I wouldn't want to say that Israel got it coming to them and that they deserve it, but Hizbullah's attack was no surprise after such provocation, even if Israel considers them terrorists. A lot of Lebanese consider Hizbullah to be fighters or militants, short of terrorists.

Quote: Neither do I, and Israel too. I do however believe in applying realpolitik to world events, and that means not spouting bs to try to justify my anti-Israeli viewpoint (which you do). Hezbollah provoked Israel into war, civilians in both countries suffered, the end.

I am anti-Israel and neutral with regards to Hizbullah. I'm not anti-Israeli: I'm not an anti-Semite, and most forum members here know that well. What I am, however, outlining is this: according to realpolitik, Israel provoked Hizbullah into attacking, and Israel "retaliated" by attacking ALL of Lebanon. That's collective punishment and it's wrong. If someone killed your brother, you don't go around killing the killer's family and neighbors.

Quote: They'll find new things, that I assure you, afterall Hezbollah's ultimate stated aim is the destruction of Israel. Also the Lebanese gov. are not puppets, if they were the Israelis would just use their puppets to destroy Hezbollah. See logic son, logic.

The Lebanese Army wasn't strong, even though in the beginning of the war, they helped Hizbullah a bit in defending the country by attacking Israeli naval ships, etc. While Hizbullah's claim may be the destruction of israel, don't forget that Israel created Hizbullah by screwing Lebanon ten times over during the Lebanese civil war. That is logic.

And don't call me "son".

Quote: Correct, it is the muslims who are cuasing the problems, and not just in Lebanon, but the world over.

The world over? Take a look at Chechnya and how the Russians did horrors on the Muslims living there, amongst other nations. I think you've got it wrong: while I agree that there are "Muslim" terrorists, the major problems come from Western governments like that of the U.S., U.K. and - yes - Israel. That, however, is dependent on perception.

Quote: What Hezbollah has is politics based on religion.

What Hizbullah has is politics using religion as an excuse.

Quote: How? There was a status quo in place, and Hezbollah violated it through those kidnappings and rocket attacks.

Yeah, you're right: Hizbullah was wrong to break the status quo, if you mean by land mines in Southern Lebanon that kill innocents daily, Lebanese prisoners in Israeli jails, and violation of Lebanese air space and sovereignity. Yeah, you're right: damn the Lebanese for making Israeli crimes clear. Hizbullah, Israel... both have done wrong, but it is Israel that started this mess, and they always have.

Quote: After the second or third kidnapping you mean, kidanppings were on the news weeks before

There was only one kidnapping that took place before then, and that was the kidnapping of Gilad Shalit. Even the I"D"F had it coming to them: they were pounding the s**t out of Gaza for weeks, and the Palestinians responded by hitting military targets. Israel responds by hitting CIVILIAN targets. Sweet.

Quote: Armm so just becuase an attack on civilians begins as diversionary, that makes it ok?

The attack was mainly on soldiers. The Katyusha attack wasn't necessary, but Israel's attack on civilians in Gaza made it justified in THEIR view. I am not of the belief that civilians should be killed in retaliation, and I don't think that attacking civilians is justified. However, Israel brought it onto themselves, through the monstrous attack on Gaza.

Quote: Except that Israel wasn't the one who violated the status-quo and started the whole mess.

Read above.

Quote: My logic is dangerous to all muslims, just like any other form of truth

Your logic is dangerous to everyone: you'd rather see innocent people die, even if they believe in something that you despise (i.e. Islam in this case). Hizbullah isn't innocent, but the Lebanese people are. So are the Palestinians. Do you know who died in the war? Not only Lebanese people, but Muslim and Christian and Druze and Athiest Lebanese... you name it.

This is not truth that you're spouting. Your language is inherent to a death threat against all Muslims.

Btw, as a side question, are you Greek? I have Greek friends.

[ALi*]

i wanna just reply to saracan's post....
palestini shouldnt have kidnapped the israeli soldier if they werent sure they can deffend such act... look at palestine now... the country's a mess!!
israeli killing innocent people
palestini killing innocent people
paletini killing palestini (gaza 2day)
u got half of the parliement members in prison
the government fell apart....
more people hate the palestinis....
u shouldnt have done it....

look at hezbollah's operation...
israeli killing innocent people (well ucant avoid that)
hezbollah was forced to target israeli civilians bcuz their PM just wouldnt understand otehrwise....
no lebanese battled agaisnt eachothers
no hezbollah or lebanese leaders were captured
we still have a government with full international support...
and more and more people are with hezbollah now and support them...

u palestini people just dont learn.... hopefully sumwhere in the near future u will....

[Pebble]

ALi* wrote: i wanna just reply to saracan's post....
palestini shouldnt have kidnapped the israeli soldier if they werent sure they can deffend such act... look at palestine now... the country's a mess!!
israeli killing innocent people
palestini killing innocent people
paletini killing palestini (gaza 2day)
u got half of the parliement members in prison
the government fell apart....
more people hate the palestinis....
u shouldnt have done it....

look at hezbollah's operation...
israeli killing innocent people (well ucant avoid that)
hezbollah was forced to target israeli civilians bcuz their PM just wouldnt understand otehrwise....
no lebanese battled agaisnt eachothers
no hezbollah or lebanese leaders were captured
we still have a government with full international support...
and more and more people are with hezbollah now and support them...

u palestini people just dont learn.... hopefully sumwhere in the near future u will....

Why do you think it is justifiedfor Hezbollah to kill innocent civilians? Furthermore, whydo you think this when you recognise that it is wrong in another case?

[ALi*]

it isnt justified to kill civilians.... but just like WW2 when hitler just couldnt stop killing innocent civilians the allies air bombed DREST in germany in february 1945 killing 150 000 innocent people in one day.
you are forced to act the same especially when you find its the only way the ennemy will stop
(hitler stopped in 1945) ( olmert stopped in 2006) i hope u know wat i mean...
when ur dealing with a criminal (at war) u have to put ur religious beliefs (wich tell us to avoid innocent people aside).


and in the case of the captured soldier in palestine... i didnt say they shouldnt have done it its wrong... im saying they should have been more sure they could defend such act and limit the losses.

[Pebble]

ALi* wrote: it isnt justified to kill civilians.... but just like WW2 when hitler just couldnt stop killing innocent civilians the allies air bombed DREST in germany in february 1945 killing 150 000 innocent people in one day.
you are forced to act the same especially when you find its the only way the ennemy will stop
(hitler stopped in 1945) ( olmert stopped in 2006) i hope u know wat i mean...
when ur dealing with a criminal (at war) u have to put ur religious beliefs (wich tell us to avoid innocent people aside). ]

Firstly, Dresden has nothing to do with this debate. Secondly, Olmert was not stopped by Hezbollah's killing of Israeli civilians, but by the IDF's failures. In actuality shelling Israeli towns probably contributed to the pressure to keep the campaign going.

Quote: and in the case of the captured soldier in palestine... i didnt say they shouldnt have done it its wrong... im saying they should have been more sure they could defend such act and limit the losses.

Is Hezbollah therefore responsible for all of the economic losses in Lebanon following their kidnappings?

[ALi*]

Pebble wrote: ALi* wrote: it isnt justified to kill civilians.... but just like WW2 when hitler just couldnt stop killing innocent civilians the allies air bombed DREST in germany in february 1945 killing 150 000 innocent people in one day.
you are forced to act the same especially when you find its the only way the ennemy will stop
(hitler stopped in 1945) ( olmert stopped in 2006) i hope u know wat i mean...
when ur dealing with a criminal (at war) u have to put ur religious beliefs (wich tell us to avoid innocent people aside).

Firstly, Dresden has nothing to do with this debate. Secondly, Olmert was not stopped by Hezbollah's killing of Israeli civilians, but by the IDF's failures. In actuality shelling Israeli towns probably contributed to the pressure to keep the campaign going.

if the reason wasnt israeli people getting killed and cities being destroyed then what was the reason? military failure??? well the idf could have continued the operation until military success is achieved!! right??
therefore there must have been another reason for israel to stop he war wich is israeli security in danger.

Pebble wrote:
Quote: and in the case of the captured soldier in palestine... i didnt say they shouldnt have done it its wrong... im saying they should have been more sure they could defend such act and limit the losses.

Is Hezbollah therefore responsible for all of the economic losses in Lebanon following their kidnappings? [/quote]

in a way.... ya of course... i mean if they didnt kidnap the 2 soldiers lebanon would have earned sumwhere near 4billion dollars in tourism revenues..... but also hezbollah is responsible for arab countries growing support and interrests to rebuild lebanon.

the lebanese governemnt have more money than before 12th july.

this is in the economy....
in other aspects lebanon has rather benefit than loose from this war:
- more internationnal support
- army in the south
- lebanese prisonners back
- hezbollah is still armed and israel has givven a reason to keep its weappons
- not even one arab soul is still scared from israel now
do u want me to go thru all the list???

i guess i made my point