Political Crossfire Forums

sully111 · Joined: 26 Oct 2006 Posts: 57

Most western prison symstems and laws and justic are based around christian ideology of forgiveness and the ten comandments thus the punishments carried out by governements such as the USA cannot be to harsh as they must try to forgive they criminals and rehebilitate them. Secondly by going to prisons you meet other criminals by doing this you usually befriend them then on the outside they help you commit more crimes and so the circle goes on...

LostSoul3412 · Joined: 11 Feb 2005 Posts: 7657

Blenderhead00 wrote: Whatever happened to exile as a form of punishment? it would be great for generally undesirable people we cant justify killing.

Too inefficient, and isn't really a punishment anymore...

LostSoul3412 · Joined: 11 Feb 2005 Posts: 7657

sully111 wrote: Most western prison symstems and laws and justic are based around christian ideology of forgiveness and the ten comandments thus the punishments carried out by governements such as the USA cannot be to harsh as they must try to forgive they criminals and rehebilitate them.

The United States is not a theocracy.

sully111 wrote: Secondly by going to prisons you meet other criminals by doing this you usually befriend them then on the outside they help you commit more crimes and so the circle goes on...

And if they do, then they will be incarcerated again. If if they break the law a third time, then they're incarcerated for life, so eventually, the circle stops.

sully111 · Joined: 26 Oct 2006 Posts: 57

LostSoul3412 wrote: sully111 wrote: Most western prison symstems and laws and justic are based around christian ideology of forgiveness and the ten comandments thus the punishments carried out by governements such as the USA cannot be to harsh as they must try to forgive they criminals and rehebilitate them.

The United States is not a theocracy.

sully111 wrote: Secondly by going to prisons you meet other criminals by doing this you usually befriend them then on the outside they help you commit more crimes and so the circle goes on...

And if they do, then they will be incarcerated again. If if they break the law a third time, then they're incarcerated for life, so eventually, the circle stops.

Actually the circle will not stop if they are in prison for life they will poison the minds of other inmates whom first time it is, introduce them to some contacts on the outside ect ect.. and this is why organised crime is rife because of the connection between these people.

sully111 · Joined: 26 Oct 2006 Posts: 57

America does not distance itself from the idea of a theocracy often G.W.Bush announces his christian beliefs, and you can honestly say his own personall beliefs do not effect his descions made in the presedncy?
the prison system seems to have lots of christian values init and it would be igronent to denie this observation.

LostSoul3412 · Joined: 11 Feb 2005 Posts: 7657

sully111 wrote: Actually the circle will not stop if they are in prison for life they will poison the minds of other inmates whom first time it is, introduce them to some contacts on the outside ect ect.. and this is why organised crime is rife because of the connection between these people.

Solitary confinement for all prisoners.

Problem solved.

LostSoul3412 · Joined: 11 Feb 2005 Posts: 7657

sully111 wrote: America does not distance itself from the idea of a theocracy often G.W.Bush announces his christian beliefs, and you can honestly say his own personall beliefs do not effect his descions made in the presedncy?
the prison system seems to have lots of christian values init and it would be igronent to denie this observation.

Just because they agree with them at times does not mean they are based upon them. I'm not denying that they are two completely separate systems, but the law is a secular ideal.

Gus · Joined: 17 Jun 2005 Posts: 7253 Location: Tampa, FL

LostSoul3412 wrote: Gus wrote: I think it is important to remember that the criminal justice system doesn't determine if someone is innocent or guilty--it determines if jurors think someone is innocent or guilty.

Which, under the American legal system, determines whether or not someone is guilty or not guilty. The system does not deal at all with innocence, merely lack of guilt.
Within the framework of the system, of course. With respect to actual justice, it doesn't determine anything relevant.

LostSoul3412 wrote: Gus wrote: A verdict does not translate to fact

Never claims to, but it does establish justice.
Well, again, it is true so long as you define justice as within the framework of the system. Justice as the larger goal of universally justified punishment, however, is not even touched by our justice system.

zentrait · Joined: 10 Mar 2005 Posts: 532

LostSoul3412 wrote: No, we're locking people up for consuming/possessing a substance that is illegal within the country. No one is locked up for merely being an addict, they're locked up for acting on that addiction.

...and that simplifies it as the dumbest reasoning I ever heard...

...starving out famine... beating a dead horse... tossing birds... running in circles...

It's obvious the courts have no idea what addiction is... and someone seems to be a walking symbolism of the idiocy that the courts exude.

Fact or fiction, addicts are locked up by the fist full...

LostSoul3412 · Joined: 11 Feb 2005 Posts: 7657

Gus wrote: Within the framework of the system, of course. With respect to actual justice, it doesn't determine anything relevant.

The system is all we have.

Gus wrote: Well, again, it is true so long as you define justice as within the framework of the system. Justice as the larger goal of universally justified punishment, however, is not even touched by our justice system.

Nor by anything else... the system isn't perfect, but it's all we have.

Gus · Joined: 17 Jun 2005 Posts: 7253 Location: Tampa, FL

LostSoul3412 wrote: Gus wrote: Within the framework of the system, of course. With respect to actual justice, it doesn't determine anything relevant.

The system is all we have.

Gus wrote: Well, again, it is true so long as you define justice as within the framework of the system. Justice as the larger goal of universally justified punishment, however, is not even touched by our justice system.

Nor by anything else... the system isn't perfect, but it's all we have.
Ya. Life lies outside the system though, so it's very very touchy to take someone's life based on such a system, which is my whole point: the system is definitely NOT too soft.

LostSoul3412 · Joined: 11 Feb 2005 Posts: 7657

zentrait wrote: LostSoul3412 wrote: No, we're locking people up for consuming/possessing a substance that is illegal within the country. No one is locked up for merely being an addict, they're locked up for acting on that addiction.

...and that simplifies it as the dumbest reasoning I ever heard...

...starving out famine... beating a dead horse... tossing birds... running in circles...

It's obvious the courts have no idea what addiction is... and someone seems to be a walking symbolism of the idiocy that the courts exude.

Fact or fiction, addicts are locked up by the fist full...

For possessing/consuming drugs. The fact that they are addicts to those substances is merely a side effect with no relevance to the law.

LostSoul3412 · Joined: 11 Feb 2005 Posts: 7657

Gus wrote: Ya. Life lies outside the system though, so it's very very touchy to take someone's life based on such a system, which is my whole point: the system is definitely NOT too soft.

I can respect that.

I disagree (for different reasons unrelated to this), but I still respect that. :wink:

zentrait · Joined: 10 Mar 2005 Posts: 532

LostSoul3412 wrote: For possessing/consuming drugs. The fact that they are addicts to those substances is merely a side effect with no relevance to the law.

Ok..then... once again, logically, that's like saying there is a front without a back, there is up but no down... cause and effect are related, obviously you can't have a drug related incarcerated 'criminal' without having a drug addict, and only the flimsy whim of law degrees them as criminals other wise they would be functional individuals in society.

norulers · Joined: 25 Aug 2004 Posts: 169 Location: Pine Ridge Rez

Here is an actual letter that cries out to for humanity and was smuggled out of prison, making its way to the net. www.prisonersreform.org/site/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=68&Itemid=59

For obvious reasons the name is "unknown". The date written is 6/2/06.

I am an inmate writing from the hole at Pelican Bay State Prison. I have been in the hole for one hundred and twelve days. I don’t know when they are going to let me go.

Since I have been here, I have seen so many abuses of authority. I have a few years left but I’m always afraid that I won’t make it to home. I found out about your web site through my friend, she thought maybe if people knew what was going on in here, they would want to help.

I have nothing in here but a Bible, which I have read like ten times. I find that I am more and more beginning to talk to myself. How many days does it take of solitary to drive a person insane ???

The police come by and verbally abuse me all the time. I don’t even know if this letter will make it home. I hope it does. I am writing at the risk that I could face retaliation from the prison guards.

All of us in here have witnessed the abuse that they have used on some prisoners. I can hear them screaming sometimes. I scream, too. How many hours can one face alone, and still hold on to hope ???

norulers · Joined: 25 Aug 2004 Posts: 169 Location: Pine Ridge Rez

Check out this prisoner's poem. Is this person being rehabilitated or even receiving "Justice"? Can't society evolve beyond the state of barbarity. I believe we can.

ATTITUDE

By Robert R. Reldan

WALLS OF STONE, HEARTS OF STEEL -
A DRINK OF VITRIOL WITH EVERY MEAL
TEARS OF ACID, WORDS OF ICE -
PLENTY OF COCKROACHES, LOTS OF MICE
FACES OF CLAY, VOICES OF DOOM -
THE STINK OF DECAY IN EVERY ROOM
THIS IS MY HOME, THIS IS MY SPACE -
IS IT ANY WONDER THERE'S HATE IN MY FACE?

Tempest · Joined: 14 Sep 2006 Posts: 66

Prison isn't easy, good luck finding one inmate who thinks it is. The US prison population will continue to grow unless everyone currently in prison either gets pardoned or every criminal conviction results in the death penalty that is carried out upon sentencing.

ieatfood · Joined: 28 Mar 2005 Posts: 6289

prison isnt about punishment or rehabilitation

prison is about keeping bad people away from the good people so the bad people can't hurt the good people

the more bad people in prison, the fewer bad people on the streets

so, when i hear that the prison population is increasing at the same time that violent crime is decreasing, that's a very good thing.

British boy · Joined: 12 Aug 2006 Posts: 325 Location: London

ieatfood wrote: prison isnt about punishment or rehabilitation

prison is about keeping bad people away from the good people so the bad people can't hurt the good people

the more bad people in prison, the fewer bad people on the streets

so, when i hear that the prison population is increasing at the same time that violent crime is decreasing, that's a very good thing.

Prison was meant to be used as a way of removing people from soceity who presented a considereable risk to the general populace, but, it was meant to be a last measure used against murderers, rapists, paedophiiles etc who could not be reformed back into society. Drug addicts, thieves and other low level (minor) criminals should be rehabilitated.

Bonobo · Joined: 21 Aug 2006 Posts: 741 Location: London

I believe the stats speak for themselves.

Not only does Denmark have oe of the lowest (I believe lowest) prison population per head, however their re-offending rates are also the lowest.

The vast majority of their 'prisoners' are kept in secure 'communities', are allowe to live with their spouse and/or children, and must go to work, and generally live as they would if they wee law abiding citizens.

However there is much debate as to wether this would be acceptable to people (I can only speak for my country from the documentary I saw:P)

However as one person on the program put it,it depends if you want your prisons for vengeance or for reforming people. This isn't meant in a condescending 'Be Christian' way, if someone tried to rob my mother I'd want him dealt with accordingly.
However when detaching yourself, you really cannot argue with the statistics. Sorry for not providing links but if u doubt any of this look it up (I would have but I suffer temporary laziness).