Political Crossfire Forums

[Atlas Bergeron]

Kamel wrote: Do you know for a fact this person murdered someone? that was the reason why the justice system is not too easy going. Did you read my post?

Quote: And if it actually was a murder, and not murder by negligence, vehicular manslaughter, even just manslaughter, or self defense? No, because the term is used too broadly to allow specifics. I figured it would be obvious that I meant first or second degree murder (maybe third, but not real clear on what that means anyway).
Quote: What does torture do anyway? What does it prove? it doesn't prove anything. It brings justice.

Quote: Did this person do anything to you? Or are you just so apathetic and desensitised that you think it's just the cool thing to do to another human being? A. he murdered someone.
B. Are you so apathetica nd desensitised that you think its just the cool thing to kill another human being?
Quote: And save the "Well he/she killed someone so they blah blah blah" This is an alleged christian based society, do unto others, turn the other cheek etc. this kind of sh*t has no place in a christian based society, let alone a modern society. The death penalty is barbaric enough.
Christian? Thats odd, because I'm not christian

[norulers]

Perpetual Futility, the creator of this thread, has made a statement based on what he knows. It is most difficult to discuss what we are not aware of.

This topic is a good one and deserves extensive thought and debate. I would suggest to begin by defining words and concepts like social justice/injustice, equality/inequality, murder, crime, criminal and punishment.

Other areas one should consider before condemning fellow humans are; the history or roots of American criminal laws (dating back to the time of the black plague called vagrancy laws); racism inherent in American institutions; and how other societies deal with those in their community who brake with social convention where no jails or prisons ever existed, an alternative to a perscribed punitive justice system that is more humane and effective for both perpetrator and victim without causing undue harm on families.

Another consideration is the comparison of the prisoner population in other countries with those of the US. What are most people in American prison's convicted of? Is it a victim or victimless, so called, crime?

Here are some questions that are directly related to the topic at hand. These questions should help broaden your perspective and enrich further debate.

Who decides what is criminal and who (what class) lobbies to have laws passed for the most part? Who decides what is just before giving punitive guide lines to a judge to use for sentencing? How is war legal but murder illegal? Is murder and war similar? Are those with money and have connections treated differently then those with neither; in both the justice and penal system? How are they treated differently? How does having the largest prisoner population in the world effect the economy? Who benefits from a high prison populations? What sector (class/color) of the American population primarily fill the prisons? What do you think of the many Corporate Prisons now contracted by government for profit? How does profit influence the decision making of those who own and manage the private corporate prisons? How might communities be negatively effected by corporately owned prisons for profit? Do the police have to much arbitrary discretion? Do you think society is socially conditioned to think a certain way? Is the sanctity of Authority and the social structure above being challenged? Should all laws be adhered to? What is "elite deviance"? Why are individuals the focus of "accountability" but not the politicians or the corporate managers? Are criminals born or are they the product of the society to which they was born? Can a person become a criminal over night due to the passage of a new law where there is no victim? Can laws favor one class over another causing social inequality and injustice? What is "Restorative Justice"?

So do some home work. Use the net.

I believe after one has thoroughly and earnestly sought out these questions some people will not think so harshly towards those who are unfortunate enough to be incarcerated. If you can do this yet still have no feeling for the prisoner then perhaps you are a criminal yourself.

[Fido]

norulers wrote: Perpetual Futility, the creator of this thread, has made a statement based on what he knows. It is most difficult to discuss what we are not aware of.

This topic is a good one and deserves extensive thought and debate. I would suggest to begin by defining words and concepts like social justice/injustice, equality/inequality, murder, crime, criminal and punishment.

Other areas one should consider before condemning fellow humans are; the history or roots of American criminal laws (dating back to the time of the black plague called vagrancy laws); racism inherent in American institutions; and how other societies deal with those in their community who brake with social convention where no jails or prisons ever existed, an alternative to a perscribed punitive justice system that is more humane and effective for both perpetrator and victim without causing undue harm on families.

Another consideration is the comparison of the prisoner population in other countries with those of the US. What are most people in American prison's convicted of? Is it a victim or victimless, so called, crime?

Here are some questions that are directly related to the topic at hand. These questions should help broaden your perspective and enrich further debate.

Who decides what is criminal and who (what class) lobbies to have laws passed for the most part? Who decides what is just before giving punitive guide lines to a judge to use for sentencing? How is war legal but murder illegal? Is murder and war similar? Are those with money and have connections treated differently then those with neither; in both the justice and penal system? How are they treated differently? How does having the largest prisoner population in the world effect the economy? Who benefits from a high prison populations? What sector (class/color) of the American population primarily fill the prisons? What do you think of the many Corporate Prisons now contracted by government for profit? How does profit influence the decision making of those who own and manage the private corporate prisons? How might communities be negatively effected by corporately owned prisons for profit? Do the police have to much arbitrary discretion? Do you think society is socially conditioned to think a certain way? Is the sanctity of Authority and the social structure above being challenged? Should all laws be adhered to? What is "elite deviance"? Why are individuals the focus of "accountability" but not the politicians or the corporate managers? Are criminals born or are they the product of the society to which they was born? Can a person become a criminal over night due to the passage of a new law where there is no victim? Can laws favor one class over another causing social inequality and injustice? What is "Restorative Justice"?

So do some home work. Use the net.

I believe after one has thoroughly and earnestly sought out these questions some people will not think so harshly towards those who are unfortunate enough to be incarcerated. If you can do this yet still have no feeling for the prisoner then perhaps you are a criminal yourself.

Good luck with that. We have been trying to define justice, freedom, and criminality for a very long time. Try to note, that our Tragic Antiheroes were criminals. Their nature was not so different from our own. One did what he did knowing what he did, and then tried to escape the consequences of his actions; and the other did what he did not knowing what he did and accepted, and even inflicted some of his punishment upon himself. Turn these stories around and look at them from the point of view of society and how society is united and made whole by the exclusion of the criminal and you have a comedy, and a particularly common form of comedy: The police story, the mystery, the whodunnit. Aristotle said, "The line between vice and virtue is one that divides all of mankind". Ex Libra. Yet we should always consider the point. Is it purely for order? For Justice? For revenge? For a lesson? For rehabilitation? For busywork? For protection? For the mindless expression of civil authority? If we do not know what we are doing we will hardly have more than chaos for our success. Law is a Frankenstein monster put together from the corpses juris of many failed societies. Can we be surprised, or only ashamed when it does not behave as intended?

[norulers]

Fido wrote: norulers wrote: Perpetual Futility, the creator of this thread, has made a statement based on what he knows. It is most difficult to discuss what we are not aware of.

This topic is a good one and deserves extensive thought and debate. I would suggest to begin by defining words and concepts like social justice/injustice, equality/inequality, murder, crime, criminal and punishment.

Other areas one should consider before condemning fellow humans are; the history or roots of American criminal laws (dating back to the time of the black plague called vagrancy laws); racism inherent in American institutions; and how other societies deal with those in their community who brake with social convention where no jails or prisons ever existed, an alternative to a perscribed punitive justice system that is more humane and effective for both perpetrator and victim without causing undue harm on families.

Another consideration is the comparison of the prisoner population in other countries with those of the US. What are most people in American prison's convicted of? Is it a victim or victimless, so called, crime?

Here are some questions that are directly related to the topic at hand. These questions should help broaden your perspective and enrich further debate.

Who decides what is criminal and who (what class) lobbies to have laws passed for the most part? Who decides what is just before giving punitive guide lines to a judge to use for sentencing? How is war legal but murder illegal? Is murder and war similar? Are those with money and have connections treated differently then those with neither; in both the justice and penal system? How are they treated differently? How does having the largest prisoner population in the world effect the economy? Who benefits from a high prison populations? What sector (class/color) of the American population primarily fill the prisons? What do you think of the many Corporate Prisons now contracted by government for profit? How does profit influence the decision making of those who own and manage the private corporate prisons? How might communities be negatively effected by corporately owned prisons for profit? Do the police have to much arbitrary discretion? Do you think society is socially conditioned to think a certain way? Is the sanctity of Authority and the social structure above being challenged? Should all laws be adhered to? What is "elite deviance"? Why are individuals the focus of "accountability" but not the politicians or the corporate managers? Are criminals born or are they the product of the society to which they was born? Can a person become a criminal over night due to the passage of a new law where there is no victim? Can laws favor one class over another causing social inequality and injustice? What is "Restorative Justice"?

So do some home work. Use the net.

I believe after one has thoroughly and earnestly sought out these questions some people will not think so harshly towards those who are unfortunate enough to be incarcerated. If you can do this yet still have no feeling for the prisoner then perhaps you are a criminal yourself.

Good luck with that. We have been trying to define justice, freedom, and criminality for a very long time. Try to note, that our Tragic Antiheroes were criminals. Their nature was not so different from our own. One did what he did knowing what he did, and then tried to escape the consequences of his actions; and the other did what he did not knowing what he did and accepted, and even inflicted some of his punishment upon himself. Turn these stories around and look at them from the point of view of society and how society is united and made whole by the exclusion of the criminal and you have a comedy, and a particularly common form of comedy: The police story, the mystery, the whodunnit. Aristotle said, "The line between vice and virtue is one that divides all of mankind". Ex Libra. Yet we should always consider the point. Is it purely for order? For Justice? For revenge? For a lesson? For rehabilitation? For busywork? For protection? For the mindless expression of civil authority? If we do not know what we are doing we will hardly have more than chaos for our success. Law is a Frankenstein monster put together from the corpses juris of many failed societies. Can we be surprised, or only ashamed when it does not behave as intended?

Who is the "we" you referred to in your second sentence? The elitist have these words (known as buzzwords) defined so that most people look no further. Each person must define words used by the media and politicians. They use these "buzzwords" to tweak the emotions of the apathetic crowd so that people will consent to the agenda of the ruling class elites.

My above post is to get people to think a little about the elitist hidden agenda to maintain the status quo in regards to consolidated wealth and power. My post draws the line between the power elite and the common people. It has nothing to do with "the line between vice and virtue ... that divides all of mankind".

The manufacturing of consent is at work here. Easily discernible by the obvious animosity displayed by some posters in this thread regarding harsher punishment for the "criminal." Criminals who are really despised victims of a injust social structure created by those who that own 80% of the GNP.

The fact is there are solutions to so called crimes that do not inflict unreasonable pain and injustice as the current punitive system does. This present system of injustice provides no remedy to the social construct that these so called crimes derive from in the first place. This is what I was posting about.

In this light your response of philosophical ramblings makes no sense at all.

[LostSoul3412]

The American justice system doesn't "punish"; it "rehabilitates".

Personally, I think we should bring back "punishment".

Remember Alcatraz? That should be the standard.

[norulers]

LostSoul3412 wrote: The American justice system doesn't "punish"; it "rehabilitates".

Personally, I think we should bring back "punishment".

Remember Alcatraz? That should be the standard.

I see your name fits you. Prison was never a rehab. by the way. You must be confused.

[LostSoul3412]

norulers wrote: I see your name fits you.

I'll take that as a compliment.

norulers wrote: Prison was never a rehab. by the way. You must be confused.

:rotf:

And you call me confused?

[British boy]

Quote: Prison was never a rehab. by the way. You must be confused.
And you call me confused?
you know what rehab is right? you attempt to make the social excluded a member of society again through education. Prison is a punishment. its merit is to remove your freedom and scare you into compliance. Prison never has been rehab and just creates a "school of crime."
The best way of explaining it is "Prison is just an expensive way of making bad people worse."

[DevilMan]

Is rehab any better? Have you ever heard the saying you can't teach old dogs new tricks? There may be some criminals that need rehab. Drug addicts are the only ones I can think of. Most criminals can't be rehabilitated. Its essentially going to a class and getting a ticket to freedom... Freedom they don't deserve. They've tried to rehabilitate rapists before and you know what happened? They were clean for a few months but then, they raped again. Murderers and rapists are sociopaths, they prey on the weak, their mind doesn't change due to rehab, they still have all those problems inside. Serial killers are usually nice, friendly, charming people, its how they get victims if you try to rehabilitate them the only thing they have to do is manipulate their teacher into believing they're changed. Criminals will always be criminals, prison is the best way of keeping people from committing crime. People don't like jail and they'll try hard not to go back, who cares if they're unhappy? They're criminals. There are a number of things rehab can help... Drug habits, Alcoholics, such things like that, but criminals can not be changed with some touchy feely class.

[Protostar]

LostSoul3412 wrote: The American justice system doesn't "punish"; it "rehabilitates".

Personally, I think we should bring back "punishment".

Remember Alcatraz? That should be the standard.

The punishment is having your freedoms taken away (the freedom to do as you please, vote, etc). The rest should be rehabiliation when possible.

[LostSoul3412]

Protostar wrote: The punishment is having your freedoms taken away (the freedom to do as you please, vote, etc). The rest should be rehabiliation when possible.

The purpose of prison is to rehabilitate criminals. I'm saying that the purpose should be to punish them. Nothing rehabilitates more than excessive force.

"The beatings will continue until moral improves."

[norulers]

I asked 21 questions on this page (pg.2) second frame from the top. All you who keep insisting on stronger punishment have yet to try and answer any of those qustions. I'm sure the reason non of you hardcore heartless people have not answered any of the questions I posed is because you have no intention on changing your mind. Maintaining your stance appears more important then an honest search for understanding, fairness and solutions.

I'm also certain that you right wing bootstumpers will respond to this post again without trying to find the answers to my reasonable questions. So I will not respond to any of your mindless / heartless reactionary responses. Your type assumes that government is above reproach and the social system beyond challenging. Yet there have better social structures that never requires prisons because they were about community as opposedto individualism where it is every man for himself. Your lack of foresight is not impressive. You simple echo the same old right wing rhetoric by champianing the rich who are the real criminals.

[DevilMan]

norulers wrote: Perpetual Futility, the creator of this thread, has made a statement based on what he knows. It is most difficult to discuss what we are not aware of.

This topic is a good one and deserves extensive thought and debate. I would suggest to begin by defining words and concepts like social justice/injustice, equality/inequality, murder, crime, criminal and punishment.

Other areas one should consider before condemning fellow humans are; the history or roots of American criminal laws (dating back to the time of the black plague called vagrancy laws); racism inherent in American institutions; and how other societies deal with those in their community who brake with social convention where no jails or prisons ever existed, an alternative to a perscribed punitive justice system that is more humane and effective for both perpetrator and victim without causing undue harm on families.

Another consideration is the comparison of the prisoner population in other countries with those of the US. What are most people in American prison's convicted of? Is it a victim or victimless, so called, crime?

Here are some questions that are directly related to the topic at hand. These questions should help broaden your perspective and enrich further debate.

Who decides what is criminal and who (what class) lobbies to have laws passed for the most part? Who decides what is just before giving punitive guide lines to a judge to use for sentencing? How is war legal but murder illegal? Is murder and war similar? Are those with money and have connections treated differently then those with neither; in both the justice and penal system? How are they treated differently? How does having the largest prisoner population in the world effect the economy? Who benefits from a high prison populations? What sector (class/color) of the American population primarily fill the prisons? What do you think of the many Corporate Prisons now contracted by government for profit? How does profit influence the decision making of those who own and manage the private corporate prisons? How might communities be negatively effected by corporately owned prisons for profit? Do the police have to much arbitrary discretion? Do you think society is socially conditioned to think a certain way? Is the sanctity of Authority and the social structure above being challenged? Should all laws be adhered to? What is "elite deviance"? Why are individuals the focus of "accountability" but not the politicians or the corporate managers? Are criminals born or are they the product of the society to which they was born? Can a person become a criminal over night due to the passage of a new law where there is no victim? Can laws favor one class over another causing social inequality and injustice? What is "Restorative Justice"?

So do some home work. Use the net.

I believe after one has thoroughly and earnestly sought out these questions some people will not think so harshly towards those who are unfortunate enough to be incarcerated. If you can do this yet still have no feeling for the prisoner then perhaps you are a criminal yourself.


social justice:
the distribution of advantages and disadvantages within a society

equality:
1. the state or quality of being equal; correspondence in quantity, degree, value, rank, or ability.
2. uniform character, as of motion or surface.
3. Mathematics. a statement that two quantities are equal; equation.

murder:
1. Law. the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law. In the U.S., special statutory definitions include murder committed with malice aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation or occurring during the commission of another serious crime, as robbery or arson (first-degree murder), and murder by intent but without deliberation or premeditation (second-degree murder).
2. Slang. something extremely difficult or perilous: That final exam was murder!
3. a group or flock of crows.
–verb (used with object) 4. Law. to kill by an act constituting murder.
5. to kill or slaughter inhumanly or barbarously.
6. to spoil or mar by bad performance, representation, pronunciation, etc.: The tenor murdered the aria.
–verb (used without object) 7. to commit murder.
—Idioms8. get away with murder, Informal. to engage in a deplorable activity without incurring harm or punishment: The new baby-sitter lets the kids get away with murder.
9. murder will out, a secret will eventually be exposed.
10. yell or scream bloody murder, a. to scream loudly in pain, fear, etc.
b. to protest loudly and angrily: If I don't get a good raise I'm going to yell bloody murder

crime:
1. an action or an instance of negligence that is deemed injurious to the public welfare or morals or to the interests of the state and that is legally prohibited.
2. criminal activity and those engaged in it: to fight crime.
3. the habitual or frequent commission of crimes: a life of crime.
4. any offense, serious wrongdoing, or sin.
5. a foolish, senseless, or shameful act: It's a crime to let that beautiful garden go to ruin.

criminal:
1. of the nature of or involving crime.
2. guilty of crime.
3. Law. of or pertaining to crime or its punishment: a criminal proceeding.
4. senseless; foolish: It's criminal to waste so much good food.
5. exorbitant; grossly overpriced: They charge absolutely criminal prices.
–noun 6. a person guilty or convicted of a crime.

punishment:
1. the act of punishing.
2. the fact of being punished, as for an offense or fault.
3. a penalty inflicted for an offense, fault, etc.
4. severe handling or treatment.






Who decides what is criminal and who (what class) lobbies to have laws passed for the most part?
The government, the people that let us live in this country.

Who decides what is just before giving punitive guide lines to a judge to use for sentencing?
The government, the people that let us live in this country.

How is war legal but murder illegal? Is murder and war similar?
Murder implies that the person you killed was no threat to you and that you killed them without just reason, war is a fight for your country and to preserve your way of life.

Are those with money and have connections treated differently then those with neither; in both the justice and penal system?
Right now your creating a situation for your own argument. Do you have any evidence to back up your claim that the wealthy are treated differently? I see none, find me documented fact and I will answer.

How are they treated differently? How does having the largest prisoner population in the world effect the economy?
Right now you assumed that I said yes, these questions seem to have a motive.

Who benefits from a high prison populations?
The American people for not having to live next door to a criminal.

What sector (class/color) of the American population primarily fill the prisons?
And here comes the race card... So if I argue with you at this point I'll look like a racist huh?

What do you think of the many Corporate Prisons now contracted by government for profit?
People are pissed that the government spends too much on prisons, so they find a solution, let corporations handle it and keep the government from loosing more money than they need to.

How does profit influence the decision making of those who own and manage the private corporate prisons?
It doessn't you go in, serve your time and get out.

How might communities be negatively effected by corporately owned prisons for profit?
The community might have a prison in it... Who controls it is irrelevant.

Do the police have to much arbitrary discretion?
No

Do you think society is socially conditioned to think a certain way?
Yes

Is the sanctity of Authority and the social structure above being challenged?
Authority yes, social structure needs to be destroyed... society is evil

Should all laws be adhered to?
YES

What is "elite deviance"?
No results found... try a better question

Why are individuals the focus of "accountability" but not the politicians or the corporate managers?
Because te government is the one that lets us live free

Are criminals born or are they the product of the society to which they was born?
Criminals are products of their environment but can not be reformed because the damage is too extensive... I see where your going with this question.

Can a person become a criminal over night due to the passage of a new law where there is no victim?
There is always a victim... Laws protect people directly or indirectly.

Can laws favor one class over another causing social inequality and injustice?
No the law is blind

What is "Restorative Justice"?
justice that restores... any more brain busters?

If you have any more questions might I suggest asking Jeeves?
Here are your precious answers... Wow I don't feel like changing my mind at all... Hmm...

[norulers]

DevilMan wrote: social justice:
the distribution of advantages and disadvantages within a society

equality:
1. the state or quality of being equal; correspondence in quantity, degree, value, rank, or ability.
2. uniform character, as of motion or surface.
3. Mathematics. a statement that two quantities are equal; equation.

murder:
1. Law. the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law. In the U.S., special statutory definitions include murder committed with malice aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation or occurring during the commission of another serious crime, as robbery or arson (first-degree murder), and murder by intent but without deliberation or premeditation (second-degree murder).
2. Slang. something extremely difficult or perilous: That final exam was murder!
3. a group or flock of crows.
–verb (used with object) 4. Law. to kill by an act constituting murder.
5. to kill or slaughter inhumanly or barbarously.
6. to spoil or mar by bad performance, representation, pronunciation, etc.: The tenor murdered the aria.
–verb (used without object) 7. to commit murder.
—Idioms8. get away with murder, Informal. to engage in a deplorable activity without incurring harm or punishment: The new baby-sitter lets the kids get away with murder.
9. murder will out, a secret will eventually be exposed.
10. yell or scream bloody murder, a. to scream loudly in pain, fear, etc.
b. to protest loudly and angrily: If I don't get a good raise I'm going to yell bloody murder

crime:
1. an action or an instance of negligence that is deemed injurious to the public welfare or morals or to the interests of the state and that is legally prohibited.
2. criminal activity and those engaged in it: to fight crime.
3. the habitual or frequent commission of crimes: a life of crime.
4. any offense, serious wrongdoing, or sin.
5. a foolish, senseless, or shameful act: It's a crime to let that beautiful garden go to ruin.

criminal:
1. of the nature of or involving crime.
2. guilty of crime.
3. Law. of or pertaining to crime or its punishment: a criminal proceeding.
4. senseless; foolish: It's criminal to waste so much good food.
5. exorbitant; grossly overpriced: They charge absolutely criminal prices.
–noun 6. a person guilty or convicted of a crime.

punishment:
1. the act of punishing.
2. the fact of being punished, as for an offense or fault.
3. a penalty inflicted for an offense, fault, etc.
4. severe handling or treatment.






Who decides what is criminal and who (what class) lobbies to have laws passed for the most part?
The government, the people that let us live in this country.

Who decides what is just before giving punitive guide lines to a judge to use for sentencing?
The government, the people that let us live in this country.

How is war legal but murder illegal? Is murder and war similar?
Murder implies that the person you killed was no threat to you and that you killed them without just reason, war is a fight for your country and to preserve your way of life.

Are those with money and have connections treated differently then those with neither; in both the justice and penal system?
Right now your creating a situation for your own argument. Do you have any evidence to back up your claim that the wealthy are treated differently? I see none, find me documented fact and I will answer.

How are they treated differently? How does having the largest prisoner population in the world effect the economy?
Right now you assumed that I said yes, these questions seem to have a motive.

Who benefits from a high prison populations?
The American people for not having to live next door to a criminal.

What sector (class/color) of the American population primarily fill the prisons?
And here comes the race card... So if I argue with you at this point I'll look like a racist huh?

What do you think of the many Corporate Prisons now contracted by government for profit?
People are pissed that the government spends too much on prisons, so they find a solution, let corporations handle it and keep the government from loosing more money than they need to.

How does profit influence the decision making of those who own and manage the private corporate prisons?
It doessn't you go in, serve your time and get out.

How might communities be negatively effected by corporately owned prisons for profit?
The community might have a prison in it... Who controls it is irrelevant.

Do the police have to much arbitrary discretion?
No

Do you think society is socially conditioned to think a certain way?
Yes

Is the sanctity of Authority and the social structure above being challenged?
Authority yes, social structure needs to be destroyed... society is evil

Should all laws be adhered to?
YES

What is "elite deviance"?
No results found... try a better question

Why are individuals the focus of "accountability" but not the politicians or the corporate managers?
Because te government is the one that lets us live free

Are criminals born or are they the product of the society to which they was born?
Criminals are products of their environment but can not be reformed because the damage is too extensive... I see where your going with this question.

Can a person become a criminal over night due to the passage of a new law where there is no victim?
There is always a victim... Laws protect people directly or indirectly.

Can laws favor one class over another causing social inequality and injustice?
No the law is blind

What is "Restorative Justice"?
justice that restores... any more brain busters?

If you have any more questions might I suggest asking Jeeves?
Here are your precious answers... Wow I don't feel like changing my mind at all... Hmm...

Wow! What a total waste of time and energy on your part. It is quite obvious to anyone what your bottom line was very early on in your first definition. Your definitions are mechanical (straight from the dictionary) as apposed to flowing with insightful depth of thought.

You answered the questions I posed with very narrow concepts yet volumes of books have been written on Crime, Crime and Punishment, Criminal Law and its' Historical Origins, etc. by scientific scholars. Academically speaking there are a variety of disciplines (Historians, Sociologist, Social Theorist, Political Scientist, Psychologist, Journalist etc.) that approach (research) these concepts, definitions, and social issues in a open ended scientific manner. Many of my above post questions came from my professors when I was in undergrad college. I know you would never get away with your shallow, inflammatory answers there.

I have one more question for you. If you don't want to be sincerely challenged in ways that would cause you to apply yourself; why do you come to a political forum?

Devilman, you didn't even have to respond to my post if you didn't really want to interact intelligently or courteously. These political forum can be of use for self growth in terms of social interaction, self examination, learning from others, challenging ones own perception of the world by understanding other world views etc., etc. Even gramaticly; one can improve spelling skills, sentence structure, vocabulary, writing technique.

You not only have been intentionally insincere and closed minded; you are also rude, hostile, self-absorbed and arrogant. My definition of closed minded is (without the use of a dictionary) someone who is intolerant, insensate, of another person's customs, culture,opinion's, world views, and appearance. Your way too childish for any reasonable intelligent interaction.

[LostSoul3412]

norulers wrote: What are most people in American prison's convicted of?

Crimes.

norulers wrote: Is it a victim or victimless, so called, crime?

Irrelevant, they broke the law, and thus should be punished accordingly.

norulers wrote: Who decides what is criminal and who (what class) lobbies to have laws passed for the most part?

Congress writes the laws. Lobbyists can speak into the congressman's ear, but Congress ultimately holds the pen.

norulers wrote: Who decides what is just before giving punitive guide lines to a judge to use for sentencing?

Legal precedent.

norulers wrote: How is war legal but murder illegal?

Because there is no law against war.

norulers wrote: Is murder and war similar?

No. One is legal, whereas the other is not.

norulers wrote: Are those with money and have connections treated differently then those with neither; in both the justice and penal system?

Yes, "white collar crime" is a joke.

norulers wrote: How are they treated differently?

A man who steals a loaf of bread gets three years in a federal prison, whereas a man who steals $5,000,000 in investing fraud gets three months in a federal country club.

norulers wrote: How does having the largest prisoner population in the world effect the economy?

Irrelevant, because the law is more important than the economy.

norulers wrote: Who benefits from a high prison populations?

Innocent individuals.

norulers wrote: What sector (class/color) of the American population primarily fill the prisons?

Criminals.

norulers wrote: What do you think of the many Corporate Prisons now contracted by government for profit?

A travesty to rule of law.

norulers wrote: How does profit influence the decision making of those who own and manage the private corporate prisons?

Can't say, because I don't own/manage a private prison.

norulers wrote: How might communities be negatively effected by corporately owned prisons for profit?

How might they? Sorry, speculation does not count as argument in my book.

norulers wrote: Do the police have to much arbitrary discretion?

No, as all individuals are protected with due process.

norulers wrote: Do you think society is socially conditioned to think a certain way?

Absolutely.

norulers wrote: Is the sanctity of Authority and the social structure above being challenged?

Absolutely not, but it should be.

norulers wrote: Should all laws be adhered to?

Yes. They're there for a reason.

norulers wrote: What is "elite deviance"?

I honestly don't know, as I have never heard that term before.

norulers wrote: Why are individuals the focus of "accountability" but not the politicians or the corporate managers?

Because for some reason, unknown to me, such individuals are "above the law", which is a horrible trampling upon the Fourteenth Amendment.

norulers wrote: Are criminals born or are they the product of the society to which they was born?

Neither, they are the product of criminal activity.

norulers wrote: Can a person become a criminal over night due to the passage of a new law where there is no victim?

Yes.

norulers wrote: Can laws favor one class over another causing social inequality and injustice?

Yes, all laws ultimately benefit the individuals whom are writing them.

norulers wrote: What is "Restorative Justice"?

Can't say; again, I've never heard that term before.

norulers wrote: If you can do this yet still have no feeling for the prisoner then perhaps you are a criminal yourself.

Lack of compassion for criminals is not a crime, neither is upholding the law above personal emotion. The law knows no morals, no emotion, no sympathy. You break the law, you suffer the consequences.

[norulers]

LostSoul3412 wrote: norulers wrote: What are most people in American prison's convicted of?

Crimes.

norulers wrote: Is it a victim or victimless, so called, crime?

Irrelevant, they broke the law, and thus should be punished accordingly.

norulers wrote: Who decides what is criminal and who (what class) lobbies to have laws passed for the most part?

Congress writes the laws. Lobbyists can speak into the congressman's ear, but Congress ultimately holds the pen.

norulers wrote: Who decides what is just before giving punitive guide lines to a judge to use for sentencing?

Legal precedent.

norulers wrote: How is war legal but murder illegal?

Because there is no law against war.

norulers wrote: Is murder and war similar?

No. One is legal, whereas the other is not.

norulers wrote: Are those with money and have connections treated differently then those with neither; in both the justice and penal system?

Yes, "white collar crime" is a joke.

norulers wrote: How are they treated differently?

A man who steals a loaf of bread gets three years in a federal prison, whereas a man who steals $5,000,000 in investing fraud gets three months in a federal country club.

norulers wrote: How does having the largest prisoner population in the world effect the economy?

Irrelevant, because the law is more important than the economy.

norulers wrote: Who benefits from a high prison populations?

Innocent individuals.

norulers wrote: What sector (class/color) of the American population primarily fill the prisons?

Criminals.

norulers wrote: What do you think of the many Corporate Prisons now contracted by government for profit?

A travesty to rule of law.

norulers wrote: How does profit influence the decision making of those who own and manage the private corporate prisons?

Can't say, because I don't own/manage a private prison.

norulers wrote: How might communities be negatively effected by corporately owned prisons for profit?

How might they? Sorry, speculation does not count as argument in my book.

norulers wrote: Do the police have to much arbitrary discretion?

No, as all individuals are protected with due process.

norulers wrote: Do you think society is socially conditioned to think a certain way?

Absolutely.

norulers wrote: Is the sanctity of Authority and the social structure above being challenged?

Absolutely not, but it should be.

norulers wrote: Should all laws be adhered to?

Yes. They're there for a reason.

norulers wrote: What is "elite deviance"?

I honestly don't know, as I have never heard that term before.

norulers wrote: Why are individuals the focus of "accountability" but not the politicians or the corporate managers?

Because for some reason, unknown to me, such individuals are "above the law", which is a horrible trampling upon the Fourteenth Amendment.

norulers wrote: Are criminals born or are they the product of the society to which they was born?

Neither, they are the product of criminal activity.

norulers wrote: Can a person become a criminal over night due to the passage of a new law where there is no victim?

Yes.

norulers wrote: Can laws favor one class over another causing social inequality and injustice?

Yes, all laws ultimately benefit the individuals whom are writing them.

norulers wrote: What is "Restorative Justice"?

Can't say; again, I've never heard that term before.

norulers wrote: If you can do this yet still have no feeling for the prisoner then perhaps you are a criminal yourself.

Lack of compassion for criminals is not a crime, neither is upholding the law above personal emotion. The law knows no morals, no emotion, no sympathy. You break the law, you suffer the consequences.

The things I said to devilman goes for you too. You seem to have no depth of thought and assume the the only possible perception is the one you have already without truly challenging yourself.

Are you giving short unthought out answers because you are being sarcastic or because you are dull of mind? Rethinking that last question, which is too harsh; I am truely perplexed as to where you're coming from.

I mean, why didn't you look up "elite deviance" and "Restorative Justice" on the net? Whats with the short answers to complex questions? My challenge to answer the questions I asked was to get you (anyone wanting too) to take the time to do some research and some soul searching. Who hasn't commited a so called crime but didn't get caught? be honest here.

The point here is that short, not thought out and not researching answers to extreemly complex questions aren't going to acheive profound attitude change or even a change of mind. You got to put in real work and effort. I've worked on these same questions for several years before coming to a completer understanding. I could write volumes on any one of these questions. I hope your response will bare out where you're honestly coming from.

You should of read my above post to devilman before you responded. You might of responded differantly. Perhaps you did read it and didn't get it. I tend to cut discussions short with those who are dull of wit or come out with sideways hostility due to ignorance and close mindedness, as devilman post is. So if you respond that way this will be all I post here to you or devilman.

All I want is some sincere intellectual effort, some soul searching honesty with a touch of human heart. No one can answer these 21 complexed questions posted above in a week, a month or even a year's time of dilligent effort let alone in a half hour. That is just an insult to me who has done the work. Right? You know I'm right.

[norulers]

The "LAW" is not a holy grail. Politicians are law makers. Show me an honest politician. There is no such thing. Slavery was a law that need people to challenge it and break it. Many "jim crow" laws followed when slavery became outlawed. Disobedience to a law can be humane and adherence to a crime. Laws made by law breakers are nothing to revere.

A man murders his wife in the heat of emotion. How does that compare too the politician that creates a war so the rich, who endorse their champagne, can profit while assigning many impoverished people to die on both sides of the war. Criminals!

What about the corporation that allows a certain amount of people to die in a preventable car accidence because dealing with laws suites will be cheaper then recalling cars with faulty equipment and replacing it would proper equipment. Criminals!

Is not invading another's home and land; pillaging war upon them for profit a crime of the most horrific nature? To make freedom fighters into terrorist in the eyes of the ignorant is the type of trickery these politician/ criminals do because the affluent have the access to the media and the grass roots freedom fighter has neither money nor access. The media itself is owned by the same affluent people. Criminals!

Politicians are nothing more than a secret band of murdering, lying, thieves.

The crimes some of you clowns calling for stiffer punishment is nothing to the crimes of the real players; those with consolidated wealth and power, access, means and motive to do real damage while deceiving the public they openly profess to represent yet privately despise. Lets do something about these criminals and then we'll truly be free and there will be no further reasons to make criminals out of common people.

Oops! Did I hit you sensitive patriotic nerve. Don't get countrymen confused with government. Remember; many of American prisoners are veterans too. :lol:

[LostSoul3412]

norulers wrote: The things I said to devilman goes for you too. You seem to have no depth of thought and assume the the only possible perception is the one you have already without truly challenging yourself.

:rotf:

Why, because I don't agree with you? Nice try, but I've challenged myself out of three major political philosophies in the past, get off the pedestal, and accept that not everyone will agree with you.

norulers wrote: Are you giving short unthought out answers because you are being sarcastic or because you are dull of mind?

Neither, I am giving short answers because that is all that is necessary to the question at hand.

norulers wrote: Rethinking that last question, which is too harsh; I am truely perplexed as to where you're coming from.

Too harsh? Is it wrong to punish those who break the law? Law enforcement is not there to hug you and tell you everything's alright; law enforcement is there to punish you for your past transgressions.

norulers wrote: I mean, why didn't you look up "elite deviance" and "Restorative Justice" on the net?

Because I deemed it irrelevant to the argument at hand, and that if it was a primary point of your debate you would have bothered to explain it. Until then, I'll shrug it off and determine that those terms are not important.

norulers wrote: Whats with the short answers to complex questions?

No offense, but the questions are not that complex. You asked the questions, and I answered them accordingly.

norulers wrote: My challenge to answer the questions I asked was to get you (anyone wanting too) to take the time to do some research and some soul searching.

"Soul searching"? This is a debate on law, not theology.

norulers wrote: Who hasn't commited a so called crime but didn't get caught? be honest here.

Me, but until I am convicted of such actions, I am not guilty.

norulers wrote: The point here is that short, not thought out and not researching answers to extreemly complex questions aren't going to acheive profound attitude change or even a change of mind.

Not thought out? The answers I presented are all thought out, and all answer the questions that you asked. My apologies for not writing an essay upon each topic, but there is no need to write a paragraph upon a question that can be answered with a single word.

norulers wrote: You got to put in real work and effort.

"Real work and effort"? Now you're just equating opposing opinions to laziness. No dice. Come off the pedestal.

norulers wrote: I've worked on these same questions for several years before coming to a completer understanding. I could write volumes on any one of these questions.

Congratulations. Write your volumes upon questions that I managed to answer with one word.

norulers wrote: I hope your response will bare out where you're honestly coming from.

Read the answers, it's all there.

norulers wrote: You should of read my above post to devilman before you responded.

Why would I read a post that was not addressed to me? If you wanted me to read it, and take it to heart, then perhaps you should have considered me. Since you did not, and you were not addressing me, I respected your side comments and took nothing from it.

norulers wrote: I tend to cut discussions short with those who are dull of wit or come out with sideways hostility due to ignorance and close mindedness, as devilman post is. So if you respond that way this will be all I post here to you or devilman.

Using your own definition, I would call you close-minded.

norulers wrote: All I want is some sincere intellectual effort, some soul searching honesty with a touch of human heart.

Laws do not know emotions. They are black and white. You break the rules, you suffer the consequences.

Stop hiding behind your curtain of shallow arrogance. You want others to agree with you, and if they do not, you claim that they did not try hard enough. Come off your pedestal, and accept that other do not agree.

norulers wrote: No one can answer these 21 complexed questions posted above in a week, a month or even a year's time of dilligent effort let alone in a half hour.

Ten minutes, and yes they can, see above. Your questions are not that complex, and if you think they are complex, then perhaps you are searching for the wrong answer, or perhaps you underestimated my intelligence.

norulers wrote: That is just an insult to me who has done the work. Right? You know I'm right.

I wouldn't call it an insult from me to you, so much as an insult against yourself. I have no problem with you working and writing upon this questions and topics, but if I am able to answer them in a simple phrase, or a single word, then that is all I need to answer the questions that you pose. Do not hold others to your standards, and then complain when they exceed your own. Stop your arrogance, and come off your pedestal.

[LostSoul3412]

norulers wrote: The "LAW" is not a holy grail. Politicians are law makers. Show me an honest politician. There is no such thing. Slavery was a law that need people to challenge it and break it. Many "jim crow" laws followed when slavery became outlawed. Disobedience to a law can be humane and adherence to a crime. Laws made by law breakers are nothing to revere.

I never claimed the contrary. All laws that are written ultimate support the purpose of the one whom is holding the pen. However, what is law, is law, and therefore is the written standard of societal behavior and operation.

norulers wrote: A man murders his wife in the heat of emotion. How does that compare too the politician that creates a war so the rich, who endorse their champagne, can profit while assigning many impoverished people to die on both sides of the war. Criminals!

Not at all. The first example is murder, pure and simple. The second example is war, of which there is no law against, and therefore are not criminals.

norulers wrote: What about the corporation that allows a certain amount of people to die in a preventable car accidence because dealing with laws suites will be cheaper then recalling cars with faulty equipment and replacing it would proper equipment. Criminals!

Buyer beware. They were not forced to buy the car, and they accept the responsibility of it once they sign the lease.

norulers wrote: Is not invading another's home and land; pillaging war upon them for profit a crime of the most horrific nature?

No, because for it to be a crime, there must be a law against it. If there is no law, there is no crime.

norulers wrote: To make freedom fighters into terrorist in the eyes of the ignorant is the type of trickery these politician/ criminals do because the affluent have the access to the media and the grass roots freedom fighter has neither money nor access. The media itself is owned by the same affluent people. Criminals!

Now you've gone off the deep end...

However, again, if there is no law, there is no crime.

norulers wrote: Politicians are nothing more than a secret band of murdering, lying, thieves.

Be that as it may, they are still the ones whom control your world, and your laws.

norulers wrote: The crimes some of you clowns calling for stiffer punishment is nothing to the crimes of the real players; those with consolidated wealth and power, access, means and motive to do real damage while deceiving the public they openly profess to represent yet privately despise. Lets do something about these criminals and then we'll truly be free and there will be no further reasons to make criminals out of common people.

If you're talking about white collar crime, see above within my answers to your questions, because I stated that the punishment should fit the crime.

norulers wrote: Oops! Did I hit you sensitive patriotic nerve. Don't get countrymen confused with government. Remember; many of American prisoners are veterans too. :lol:

Patriotic nerve?

:rotf:

You think I'm a patriot?

A criminal is a criminal, no matter what their job is. Be it earning minimum wage at McDonald's, unemployed, CEO, or even president. All are equal under the eyes of the law. There are only those whom are guilty, and those whom are not guilty. There is no innocence, only lack of guilt.

Also, keep your generalizations, and stop attempting to turn your personal morals into law.

[zentrait]

I think the issue is very clouded here. Like many have stated, the current US prison system is neither rehabilitation or punishment. When you begin to look at the percentages of drug addicts incarcerated by the US justice system, they comprise nearly 40% of the prison population, while blacks represent about 13% of the US population, there is nearly 50% that comprise the prison population... so what is really going on here? Think that murder, theft, rape and drug abuse can only happen in the streets, and is curbed at the gates of some penal facility is wrong. Over 40% of the prison population is there for non-violent crimes, yet learn quickly. While there is almost 800,000 "criminals" in for drug offenses, 65 million other US citizens use drugs on a normal basis, over 6 million are heavy drug users, want to incarcerate them all? Good luck paying your taxes...

...and what percentage of these inmates are just plain mentally deficient? ...good thing we closed all those mental facilities...

...something is just plain wrong with the current prison system, it obviously is flawed and isn't at all working FOR US.