Political Crossfire Forums

[Perpetual Futility]

WIth over 2 million prison inmates in our prisons and most of them end up returning, my question is:

Is our punishmnet too easy going?

If you look at it these criminals must not think our prisons are that bad, and there a a bunch of people who are trying to get more "humane" treatment for prisoners. This is not how we are going to lessen crime. You do not get a child to respect you by saying "sweety, mommy would appreciate it if you would stop throwing rocks at her."

We need harsher, more short-term solutions to these problems, we shouldn't give these people good treatement for raping someone. We should punish them, and make them wish they never commited that crime. Now I am aware that our justice system is not perfect, innocent people are convicted for crimes they did not commit. But that is no reason why we should keep our punishments easygoing. And also why we should have more "short term" punishments. And with today's slackening discipline for our kids, we are losing control. Getting respect from your kids as a parent is like getting respect as a leader. Sometimes these people need to be disciplined, and just saying go to room isnt going to solve anything.

But thats just my view on it. :twisted:

enjoy :arrow:

[Babylon_Horuv]

The American Prision system isn't designed as a punbishment, it is designed as rehabilitation. Unfortunately it is now a hybrid of the two and fairly innefective as either. If we are going to go with a rehabilitative approach we need to do that entirely, if we are going to go with punishment we need something cheaper to the state that does not take so very very long.

[Demonic Spoon]

Babylon_Horuv wrote: The American Prision system isn't designed as a punbishment, it is designed as rehabilitation. Unfortunately it is now a hybrid of the two and fairly innefective as either. If we are going to go with a rehabilitative approach we need to do that entirely, if we are going to go with punishment we need something cheaper to the state that does not take so very very long.

http://Babylon_Horuv.youaremighty.com


The main problem is that the guards pretty much let the prisoners do whatever they want to each other. There's almost no security in there at all. Small, sane criminals go into the prison system and come out as psychopaths

[Perpetual Futility]

Demonic Spoon wrote:
The main problem is that the guards pretty much let the prisoners do whatever they want to each other. There's almost no security in there at all. Small, sane criminals go into the prison system and come out as psychopaths

And when you put all these criminals together they tend to learn off of each other. So for some its like going to criminal school.

[Fido]

Part of the problem with punishment is that you do not only punish the guilty, but the family as well. It should be enough to take a part of a person's life that no prayers or good deeds will ever return to him, or her. If all you are doing is continuing a criminal education, or giving that person an even stronger affiliation in his gang, or tribe, then there is little point. The punishment should in some senses fit the crime, and not the crime one is suspected of, or to provide an example. Some crimes are so bad that the public wants to punish far beyond equality or humanity. This is a bad idea. If a person guilty of theft knows he will go to prison for life if caught he will exercise caution by killing the witness. This is equally true of child abusers. If the first time you catch them is the last time you need catch them you may know some success, but the crime will be murder and child abuse. The first thing every law ought to broadcast far and wide is mercy. It ought to look for any excuse to show mercy, and so encourage mercy in the criminal. You may not be able to brutalize a human being, but you can always brutalize a brute, and make them worse for their experience with justice. If execution is not going to be the norm you will have to expect these people to be out on the street some day. When that happens everyone wants them restored to honor, and not vengeful in spirit about any wrong done to them by society. We have to remember the example these people learn by. They see wealth not as the result of honor, or hard work, but as a thing hard work never earns, and as giving honor to even the most dishonorable person. If wealth is what honor used to be, we should not be surprised when people do themselves dishonor to have it. If we expect them to work, then well and good. We will not ever teach them that work is worthy if it is not worth a living wage. Many of these people still have the living memory of slavery in their past. We cannot expect them to work for slave wages even if that is the first step to any advancement. If the first step is impossible it will not be taken. Even the Hispanics, who will work for any pittance when they first come here soon find their way to something better, or into crime. So, to answer your question; Punishment is not too easy considering we must punish ourselves to punish others. Looked at from the point of view of the criminal the exile of prison is a tragedy like those of the ancient Greeks. Looked at from the point of view of society, as in the police story, it is a comedy where we are made whole by removing the evil. But we are one family, and until we learn to offer opportunity to meet ambition half way we should not put all the burden of the failures of society upon those who are only symptomatic of a greater illness.

[Babylon_Horuv]

Perpetual Futility wrote: Demonic Spoon wrote:
The main problem is that the guards pretty much let the prisoners do whatever they want to each other. There's almost no security in there at all. Small, sane criminals go into the prison system and come out as psychopaths

And when you put all these criminals together they tend to learn off of each other. So for some its like going to criminal school.

This is true, it ends up being rehabilitation, essentially, but the complete wrong kind, instead of educating criminals on how to be better members of society, and why that is desirable, we educate them on how to be better criminals and why social rules are simply a hindrance. We are not currently putting money in the right places in the criminal system to make a rehabilitative system possible.

[ieatfood]

Babylon_Horuv wrote: The American Prision system isn't designed as a punbishment, it is designed as rehabilitation. Unfortunately it is now a hybrid of the two and fairly innefective as either. If we are going to go with a rehabilitative approach we need to do that entirely, if we are going to go with punishment we need something cheaper to the state that does not take so very very long.

i disagree
the prison system is primarily neither rehab nor punishment
it is primarily designed to keep bad people locked away so they cant commit crimes.

in that sense, prisons work quite well.

[Golden Child]

I think a problem with our prisons is the fact that there is no seperation. What I mean by that is the fact that small time offenders could be bunked with murderers. If were seperated them individually based on crime committed as well as their mental stability and went primiarily with the rehab approach I think it could be more successful.

Another thing is if we just kill off all major offenders, would it really make us any better than them?

I don't think so. To kill someone because they killed someone makes it justified? That's a flawed logic. The base root of that chain is murdering another.

Quote: "To kill a man in a paroxysm of passion is understandable, but to have him killed by someone else after calm and serious meditation and on the pretext of duty honourably discharged is incomprehensible"
-The Marquis deSade

Would it make the communties better places and/or improve crime outlook?

Not really considering people would still kill even with the knowledge of death as the penalty. Just because a stove is hot doesn't mean it wont get touched.

I'd rather try and rehab this criminals and try their second hand at society. Most have the option of getting their G.E.D. in prison if they don't already have it and while this may sound f****d up, there always need to be someone working at the Gas Stations or Fast Food restuarants to do that service. Truth be told, if there was no underachievers in our society then it woudl not thrive as it has.

[Perpetual Futility]

So it seems confirmed that our prison system is a form of rehabilitation. But heres the question, which is more effective, rehab or punishment?

In rehabitation the subject is trained not to do something, and often it doesnt get through to the subject. And in the case of a prison, some of these criminals are being hardened. Like it is said they sometimes put small offenders with murderers. That could be rehabilitation but it could also be hardening that criminal depending on how rebellious (so to speak) the small time offender is. It does need reform though.

Now punishment, you have the same effect, some are affected by it and others arent. Maybe whatever it is can be worth it to commit that crime. But in other instances it does work, the potential criminal decides that the punishment is too much to make the crime worth it.

Which is more effective? What system should be used?

[Saf]

It is ineffective; whether this means it should be harsher or more rehabilitive is another argument altogether.

[Fido]

Saf wrote: It is ineffective; whether this means it should be harsher or more rehabilitive is another argument altogether.

Ineffective with no guide as to goal? It is hardly punishment to put people in the same community they came from, nor rehabilitation. They are among their own, in a more complete community in the sense of identity and union. They have friends within, and enemies on the other side. Everybody is somebody in prison, usually because they were considered nobodies in the out. They might take it as a great education in the mechanics and politics of community if survival were not the main lesson being taught. Prison is neither punishment, nor rehabilitation; but more of the same for those within, and a threat to those without.

[Snake]

Perpetual Futility wrote: WIth over 2 million prison inmates in our prisons and most of them end up returning, my question is:

Is our punishmnet too easy going?

If you look at it these criminals must not think our prisons are that bad, and there a a bunch of people who are trying to get more "humane" treatment for prisoners. This is not how we are going to lessen crime. You do not get a child to respect you by saying "sweety, mommy would appreciate it if you would stop throwing rocks at her."

We need harsher, more short-term solutions to these problems, we shouldn't give these people good treatement for raping someone. We should punish them, and make them wish they never commited that crime. Now I am aware that our justice system is not perfect, innocent people are convicted for crimes they did not commit. But that is no reason why we should keep our punishments easygoing. And also why we should have more "short term" punishments. And with today's slackening discipline for our kids, we are losing control. Getting respect from your kids as a parent is like getting respect as a leader. Sometimes these people need to be disciplined, and just saying go to room isnt going to solve anything.

But thats just my view on it. :twisted:

enjoy :arrow:

The f*ck are you talking about? Ever been in an American prison? It's terrible. The reason that the revolving door exists is because of what happens outside of prisons. Once you go to prison, you don't pass go, you never f*king win, you might as well commit more crimes or just kill yourself, nobody will hire you, except McDonalds or BurgerKing, but you can't support yourself on that pay, let alone pay your fees to the state. All ex-convicts get is criticism scorn and hatred when they return. WTF do you think is going to happen?

[DevilMan]

Elegantly put, Kamel. People who get out of jail don't usually make it as a college professor or marine biologist. We don't need harsher punishments in my view, we need smarter judges. I heard about this rapist who got arrested and instead of going to jail, they put a radio collar on his leg... A month later he cut it off and disappeared... They never released the judge's name for obvious reasons. People like that should never be allowed in the justice system. I think what people are concerned about more than anything isn't the punishment but the lack of punishment in some cases. We've all heard the expression "I'll be back on the streets by tomorrow." The legal systems need to be tweaked not the punishments.

[Snake]

I strongly believe that jobs need to be more open to hiring people who've commited a crime. Yes I know, "but why should I have to risk getting mugged by the sacker at Krogers" or some silly crap like that. Odds are, it won't happen. These people don't want to go back to prison, they enjoy freedom, more than you know, and will do what they have to in order to stay free, but they can only be pushed so far. Yes, it's a possible risk to put a guy that stole a tv out into the world with the poor defensless god fearing christians, just so he can sell cars, or a heroine addict behind a desk to do some office work, god forbid that junkie find a pen and stab somebody because he's a 'hardened criminal'. Not all people that go to prison are rapists and killers. That's the first myth that has to be dismissed. In prison, you will find common theives, burglers, people with drug charges, etc. The majority are just stupid kids that f*cked up, and now with a record, they really f*cked up their entire life. I can't comprehend how a christian based society can ruin a young mans life for one stupid action that, with the right guidance, they will never repeat. They've served their time, the punishment is supposed to end when they leave the gates, and we should keep it that way instead of buying into the paranoia that the tv dishes out.

[Atlas Bergeron]

this is a difficult issue. On the one hand, our justice system is not perfect, so it is immoral that we should use excessive punishment (becuaes the person may in fact be innocent)

On the other, rapers and murderers deserve every whip of tourcher and pain that we can give them. For them, i severely hope there is a hell so they can burn in it.

[Atlas Bergeron]

BTW, i generally think our justice system is just about right.
lol, forgot to answere teh question.

[Snake]

Why should a murderer be tortured? Do you know the details of his/her crime, or are you just basing your opinion off of a broad label?

[Atlas Bergeron]

Kamel wrote: Why should a murderer be tortured? Do you know the details of his/her crime, or are you just basing your opinion off of a broad label? details meaning he murdered somone?

by "murder" i don't mean "kill". I mean murder.

[Snake]

Do you know for a fact this person murdered someone? And if it actually was a murder, and not murder by negligence, vehicular manslaughter, even just manslaughter, or self defense? No, because the term is used too broadly to allow specifics. What does torture do anyway? What does it prove? Did this person do anything to you? Or are you just so apathetic and desensitised that you think it's just the cool thing to do to another human being? And save the "Well he/she killed someone so they blah blah blah" This is an alleged christian based society, do unto others, turn the other cheek etc. this kind of sh*t has no place in a christian based society, let alone a modern society. The death penalty is barbaric enough.

[LostSoul3412]

There is a simply way to rectify the situation, and only requires two things:

1) Reinstatement of corporal punishment.

2) Public executions by firing squad, or hanging.