Political Crossfire Forums

[the sane voice]

slitedeviance wrote: the sane voice wrote: slitedeviance wrote:
Kill their children.
what r you talking about?

Deny the next generation the chance to grow up and become involved in the situation. Deprive the country of their next generation of workers, politicians and economists. Deny them the chance to develop past where they already are.

That's one way of doing it.
i dont get your point-u r talking about jenocide

[slitedeviance]

Sorry, probably wasn't being very clear.

Was just making the point that this would be the most effective way of dealing with someone who wants to kill you. Complete annihilation of their offspring. In relation to..

Quote: but israel didnt achieved it goals and is now perceived as a"baby killer". so next time that wont be an issue.

[the sane voice]

slitedeviance wrote: Sorry, probably wasn't being very clear.

Was just making the point that this would be the most effective way of dealing with someone who wants to kill you. Complete annihilation of their offspring. In relation to..

Quote: but israel didnt achieved it goals and is now perceived as a"baby killer". so next time that wont be an issue.

israel was perceived as a ruthless baby killer after this war.israeli gov did all it could to prevent this even if it meant risking idf soldiers.
next time that wont be an issue.idf wil do its job-protecting israel.
if you think making genocide is a good plan well than thats your opinion.

[slitedeviance]

the sane voice wrote: [israel was perceived as a ruthless baby killer after this war.israeli gov did all it could to prevent this even if it meant risking idf soldiers.
next time that wont be an issue.idf wil do its job-protecting israel.if you think making genocide is a good plan well than thats your opinion.

So you're saying that next time the IDF will be happy to use indiscriminate violence in pursuit of military gains regardless of the cost to the civilian population of whichever country the IDF decided to bomb? Directly and openly breaching the Geneva conventions?

Yet you'd still moan about Israeli children killed by Hizbollah?

And BTW: I never said it was a good idea, simply the most effective way of dealing with the "enemy".[/b]

[Pebble]

the sane voice wrote: Pebble wrote:
The failure of the military response had absolutely nothing to do with how Israel wishes to be portrayed in the world.
you fuoght in idf?

Of course. :?

I'm not sure what the subject of your comment was...

Perhaps you could explain the IDF's history of adapting its tactics in an effort to influence the opinion of the international community? Or perhaps you could explain exactly how this 'reduced strike' has helped PR matters?

Quote: So next time you will inflict more damage? How long will it take you to see that you do not defeat these kind of people by massive retaliation?

how do you defeat people who say they want to kill you?[/quote]

If we look bck to the beggining of the year and the events of 2005 we can see Lebanon, the most progressive Arab state, throwing off the yoke of Syria. Syria had previously heavily influenced Lebanese policy. With the Cedar revolution over Israel had a unique chance to 'bring onside' a previous opponent.

Instead of working with a 'hearts and minds' attitude and convincing the Lebanese not to support Hezbollah Israel responded to provocation and subsequently support for Hezbollah is at an almighty high.

Furthermore, I highly doubt that all of Lebanon wants the state of Israel destroyed, I even doubt that all supporters of Hezbollah share that sentiment. What however Israeli strikes have produced is support for Hezbollah because they are seen as resisting the Israeli offensive - they are seen as defending Lebanon.

[the sane voice]

slitedeviance wrote:

So you're saying that next time the IDF will be happy to use indiscriminate violence in pursuit of military gains regardless of the cost to the civilian population of whichever country the IDF decided to bomb? Directly and openly breaching the Geneva conventions?


next idf wont sacrifice its own soldiers to guard civilians that are not israeli.
if hezbollah is lebanon protector it can defend them himself.

[the sane voice]

Pebble wrote:
I'm not sure what the subject of your comment was...

Perhaps you could explain the IDF's history of adapting its tactics in an effort to influence the opinion of the international community? Or perhaps you could explain exactly how this 'reduced strike' has helped PR matters?


its a long story.mostly because of israeli corrupted supreme court.
and my point was it didnt help.

Quote:

Instead of working with a 'hearts and minds' attitude and convincing the Lebanese not to support Hezbollah Israel responded to provocation and subsequently support for Hezbollah is at an almighty high.


i dont care how many support hezbollah in lebanon.hezbollah is a terror organization its purpose is to destroy israel.it fired rockets on civilians and it will do it again.talking to somebody heart who use violence wont help you.

Quote:
Furthermore, I highly doubt that all of Lebanon wants the state of Israel destroyed, I even doubt that all supporters of Hezbollah share that sentiment. What however Israeli strikes have produced is support for Hezbollah because they are seen as resisting the Israeli offensive - they are seen as defending Lebanon.

hezbollah very much like to destroy israel and "free all Palestine".
even iraninan troops fought with hezbollah in this war.iran supplies weapons to hezbollah.in fact it was a mistake not to go for iran or Syria.

[Pebble]

the sane voice wrote: Pebble wrote:
I'm not sure what the subject of your comment was...

Perhaps you could explain the IDF's history of adapting its tactics in an effort to influence the opinion of the international community? Or perhaps you could explain exactly how this 'reduced strike' has helped PR matters?


its a long story.mostly because of israeli corrupted supreme court.
and my point was it didnt help.

Could you please explain what you mean here...it bears little relevance to your previous points...

In anycase, 'it's a long story' is absolutely no excuse not to back up your points.

Quote:

Instead of working with a 'hearts and minds' attitude and convincing the Lebanese not to support Hezbollah Israel responded to provocation and subsequently support for Hezbollah is at an almighty high.


i dont care how many support hezbollah in lebanon.hezbollah is a terror organization its purpose is to destroy israel.it fired rockets on civilians and it will do it again.talking to somebody heart who use violence wont help you.[/quote]

Hezbollah relies upon popular support to achieve its aims. It would be a pretty lousy resistance with no support...

I'm not talking about attempting to use the approach on the Hezbollah leadership, but on their grassroots supporters, without whom they would ceace to function as an organisation.

Quote: Quote:
Furthermore, I highly doubt that all of Lebanon wants the state of Israel destroyed, I even doubt that all supporters of Hezbollah share that sentiment. What however Israeli strikes have produced is support for Hezbollah because they are seen as resisting the Israeli offensive - they are seen as defending Lebanon.

hezbollah very much like to destroy israel and "free all Palestine".
even iraninan troops fought with hezbollah in this war.iran supplies weapons to hezbollah.in fact it was a mistake not to go for iran or Syria.

I'd like you to provide statisitcs that all Lebanese people who support Hezbollah support the destruction of Israel.

Going after Syria and Iran would have been a complete disaster, especially bearing in mind the defeat against Hezbollah on its own.

[the sane voice]

Pebble wrote:

Could you please explain what you mean here...it bears little relevance to your previous points...

In anycase, 'it's a long story' is absolutely no excuse not to back up your points.
i can i have my own story.i didnt get an oder to shhot terrorist because the officers were afriad of civilian casualties.the reasualt was a dead idf soldier.

Quote:
Hezbollah relies upon popular support to achieve its aims. It would be a pretty lousy resistance with no support...

I'm not talking about attempting to use the approach on the Hezbollah leadership, but on their grassroots supporters, without whom they would ceace to function as an organisation.
you dont get it-hezbollah relies on syria and iran not lebanon.



Quote:
I'd like you to provide statisitcs that all Lebanese people who support Hezbollah support the destruction of Israel.

:lol:

Quote:
Going after Syria and Iran would have been a complete disaster, especially bearing in mind the defeat against Hezbollah on its own.

ok so you think hezbollah defeated israel.crae to explain why?
idf of course didnt win this round.but you say even worse,they got defeated meaning hezbollah achieved its goals.

[Pebble]

the sane voice wrote: Pebble wrote:

Could you please explain what you mean here...it bears little relevance to your previous points...

In anycase, 'it's a long story' is absolutely no excuse not to back up your points.
i can i have my own story.i didnt get an oder to shhot terrorist because the officers were afriad of civilian casualties.the reasualt was a dead idf soldier.

All military forces should aim not to cause civilian casualties. That is a given, it is not a specific tactic that was worked in for this war that would have realistically limited its efficiency.

I am still usnure of what you mean, your points are jumping about, you last mentioned the supreme court and now a personal anecdote?

Quote:
Hezbollah relies upon popular support to achieve its aims. It would be a pretty lousy resistance with no support...

I'm not talking about attempting to use the approach on the Hezbollah leadership, but on their grassroots supporters, without whom they would ceace to function as an organisation.
you dont get it-hezbollah relies on syria and iran not lebanon.[/quote]

If Hezbollah had no support within Lebanon they would not be able to function there. End of. With your strike instead you raised civilian support for Hezbollah giving them free reign to continue.

Quote: Quote:
I'd like you to provide statisitcs that all Lebanese people who support Hezbollah support the destruction of Israel.

:lol:

I take it by that pathetic response that you conceed the point?

Quote: Quote:
Going after Syria and Iran would have been a complete disaster, especially bearing in mind the defeat against Hezbollah on its own.

ok so you think hezbollah defeated israel.crae to explain why?
idf of course didnt win this round.but you say even worse,they got defeated meaning hezbollah achieved its goals.

You answered your own question...

In any case, Hezbollah's goal from the beggining was survival, they achieved this and the IDF failed all of its major objectives.

[the sane voice]

Pebble wrote:

All military forces should aim not to cause civilian casualties.
like you in ww2?dresden sounds familiar?
Quote:
That is a given, it is not a specific tactic that was worked in for this war that would have realistically limited its efficiency.
sure it is.if instead of blowing up a building you send troops to kill terrorists it is costly.

Quote:
I am still usnure of what you mean, your points are jumping about, you last mentioned the supreme court and now a personal anecdote?

the supreme court in israel will trial anyone it considered to be guilty of a war crime.a war crime according to them is everything the idf can do to ensure the safety of its civilians even uf that means innocent get killed.
the result is dead soldiers and israeli civilians.
i gave you a personal event of this.there were no civilians near by,but the officers didnt care.it was moral to risk our lives and we have one dead soldier.

Quote: If Hezbollah had no support within Lebanon they would not be able to function there. End of. With your strike instead you raised civilian support for Hezbollah giving them free reign to continue.

hezbollah will always have support inside lebanon.and even if it didnt iran and syria will make sure it has.

Quote:

I take it by that pathetic response that you conceed the point?


what did you want me to say?where on earth can i get it?

Quote: You answered your own question...
no i didnt

Quote: In any case, Hezbollah's goal from the beggining was survival, they achieved this and the IDF failed all of its major objectives.

no it goal was to kidnap soldiers to free those "innocent civilians" that israel have.its main goal is to free palestine.it achieved none of this.

[ALi*]

Quote: no it goal was to kidnap soldiers to free those "innocent civilians" that israel have.its main goal is to free palestine.it achieved none of this.
wtf?
1- they did kidnap 2 soldiers if u still dont know.... so they did achieve their goal.
2- who said their goal was to free palestine? link plz

[the sane voice]

ALi* wrote: Quote: no it goal was to kidnap soldiers to free those "innocent civilians" that israel have.its main goal is to free palestine.it achieved none of this.
wtf?
1- they did kidnap 2 soldiers if u still dont know.... so they did achieve their


i said their goal is to kidnap in order to free-they manage to free anyone?
Quote: 2- who said their goal was to free palestine? link plz
its hezbollah main goal.
* The solution to Lebanon's problems is the establishment of an Islamic republic as only this type of regime can secure justice and equality for all of Lebanon's citizens.

* The Hizbullah organization views as an important goal the fight against 'western imperialism' and its eradication from Lebanon. The group strives for complete American and French withdrawal from Lebanon, including all their institutions.

* The conflict with Israel is viewed as a central concern. This is not only limited to the IDF presence in Lebanon. Rather, the complete destruction of the State of Israel and the establishment of Islamic rule over Jerusalem is an expressed goal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah

[Saracen]

the sane voice wrote: hezbollah "won" this war.from now on the terror group hezbollah will resort to more violence. waht should israel do now?

Hizbullah won't do anything. All they want are negotiations: swap prisoners, clear land mines, get out of Lebanon and Shebbaa Farms, etc.

[the sane voice]

Saracen wrote: the sane voice wrote: hezbollah "won" this war.from now on the terror group hezbollah will resort to more violence. waht should israel do now?

Hizbullah won't do anything. All they want are negotiations: swap prisoners, clear land mines, get out of Lebanon and Shebbaa Farms, etc.
they want to destroy israel.when will you get it?
when israel gives them what they want and then they will be strong enough to achieve it?

[Pebble]

the sane voice wrote: Pebble wrote:

All military forces should aim not to cause civilian casualties.
like you in ww2?dresden sounds familiar?

Dresden was a war crime by modern standards.

What is your point here in any case? If I changed the little flag below my avatar would you adjust your insults accordingly? They do not lessen my point in any way.

Quote: Quote:
That is a given, it is not a specific tactic that was worked in for this war that would have realistically limited its efficiency.
sure it is.if instead of blowing up a building you send troops to kill terrorists it is costly.

Yes, but realistically you cannot simply destory the building and claim to be minding civilian casualties - though we can see many examples of this in the recent conflict.

Quote: Quote:
I am still usnure of what you mean, your points are jumping about, you last mentioned the supreme court and now a personal anecdote?

the supreme court in israel will trial anyone it considered to be guilty of a war crime.a war crime according to them is everything the idf can do to ensure the safety of its civilians even uf that means innocent get killed.

I dont understand what you mean when you say " war crime according to them is everything the idf can do to ensure the safety of its civilians".

Quote: the result is dead soldiers and israeli civilians. i gave you a personal event of this.there were no civilians near by,but the officers didnt care.it was moral to risk our lives and we have one dead soldier.

That is simply one anecdote, it is not evidence enough to claim that effectiveness was reduced. Incidently, despite the loss of your comrade, did you succeed in your objective that day?

Quote: Quote: If Hezbollah had no support within Lebanon they would not be able to function there. End of. With your strike instead you raised civilian support for Hezbollah giving them free reign to continue.

hezbollah will always have support inside lebanon.and even if it didnt iran and syria will make sure it has.

Iran and Syria are not loved inside Lebanon, as demostrated by the 2005 Cedar Revolution. They do not have any infleunce with which to 'make sure'.

It is in Israel's interests to ensure that Hezbollah does not have support inside Lebanon, do you believe that Israeli would lose to Hezbollah, a terrorist group, in a PR battle if they did not use military intervention as a response?

Quote: Quote:

I take it by that pathetic response that you conceed the point?


what did you want me to say?where on earth can i get it?

Precisely, you cannot prove it. You simply cannot prove that even all of Hezbollah's supporters want Israel's destruction let alone the whole of Lebanon.

Quote: Quote: You answered your own question...
no i didnt

Yes you did, you stated that the IDF did not win.

Quote: Quote: In any case, Hezbollah's goal from the beggining was survival, they achieved this and the IDF failed all of its major objectives.

no it goal was to kidnap soldiers to free those "innocent civilians" that israel have.its main goal is to free palestine.it achieved none of this.

That was the objective of the kidnapping sure, but once Israel went into Lebanon the objectives changed. They became survival and Hezbollah has come out of this whole encounted looking very well.

[the sane voice]

Pebble wrote:
Dresden was a war crime by modern standards.

What is your point here in any case? If I changed the little flag below my avatar would you adjust your insults accordingly? They do not lessen my point in any way.


you call dresden an insult?i think its one of the reasons you won ww2.

Quote:
Yes, but realistically you cannot simply destroy the building and claim to be minding civilian casualties - though we can see many examples of this in the recent conflict.

i never said i want to mind civilians casualties.in my view it is moral to do what you can to insure your safety and your life.

Quote:
I dont understand what you mean when you say " war crime according to them is everything the idf can do to ensure the safety of its civilians".


i mean they are corrupted and care for Palestinians more then the isreali they serve.

Quote:
That is simply one anecdote, it is not evidence enough to claim that effectiveness was reduced. Incidently, despite the loss of your comrade, did you succeed in your objective that day?

no we didnt achieve it.one anecdote?there are many more of this.
one is the recent war.


Quote: Iran and Syria are not loved inside Lebanon, as demostrated by the 2005 Cedar Revolution. They do not have any infleunce with which to 'make sure'.

so the Lebanese president isnt pro syrian is he.
Quote:
It is in Israel's interests to ensure that Hezbollah does not have support inside Lebanon, do you believe that Israeli would lose to Hezbollah, a terrorist group, in a PR battle if they did not use military intervention as a response?


israel interest is to make sure no terror group like hezbollah threaten it.
if hezbollah has weapons and use terror on israel israel have to responde.
if they care so much for lebanon then they shouldnt attack.
Quote:

Precisely, you cannot prove it. You simply cannot prove that even all of Hezbollah's supporters want Israel's destruction let alone the whole of Lebanon.


i never said all lebanon-and you cany prove otherwise.
which you claimed you are certain of it.but you can hear what they are saying.


Quote:
Yes you did, you stated that the IDF did not win.

and?that doesnt mean hezbollah won.

Quote:
That was the objective of the kidnapping sure, but once Israel went into Lebanon the objectives changed. They became survival and Hezbollah has come out of this whole encounted looking very well.
no it was always hezbollah goal.read nasrallah speeches.

[superskippy]

Quote: Hizbullah won't do anything. All they want are negotiations: swap prisoners, clear land mines, get out of Lebanon and Shebbaa Farms, etc.

Right they have buried thousands of their militants, carried out dozens of international and domestic terrorist attacks, armed over 5,000 militants and prepared a cache of medium advanced naval missiles and rockets, spent millions upon millions of dollars, and brought death and destruction to Lebanon once more, all for some murderers that they asked for by name and Sheeba Farms something that has never been Lebanese? I think few rational people would beleive that after receiving 3 people and a piece of barren, cratered, poor, abandoned farm that they have never owned, they would simply halt.

[lilwolf]

Well appaerntly there was also a rally to protest the Hezbollah. It looks like all those that say the Hez is so popular are very incorrect here.

news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060924/ap_on_re_mi_ea/mideast_christians

[Rankor and Pissing]

Pebble wrote: the sane voice wrote: hezbollah "won" this war.from now on the terror group hezbollah will resort to more violence. waht should israel do now?

Recognise that, yet again, massive military response has failed to solve the issue?

Recognize that it wasn't massive enough... oh wait... that's right, Israel should be bent over a chair and be happy Hezbollah uses