Political Crossfire Forums

The Comrade · Joined: 16 Jul 2006 Posts: 11438 Location: Zagreb

programmusic wrote: comrade, who gives a ****. Look at the topic title.

yes, it's spelled nicely, isn't it?

now what exactly was the point of this?

David · Joined: 29 Dec 2003 Posts: 11844 Location: Louisiana

The Comrade wrote: fiction416 wrote: The Comrade wrote: fiction416 wrote: The Comrade wrote: fiction416 wrote: I think a one state solution is necessary in order to over come, and help assimulate a new culture in the Middle East. I think that both peoples need to have an equal stake in the land, with equality for all jews & arabs, without discrimination.

With this, I feel that - whatever this new state is called, for now, let's keep Israel - Israel, must have a constitution that in turn is fair & equal, and not discriminatory towards any religion or race.

AKA you want an islamic caliphate.

WTF?? where did I say that?

Quote: I think a one state solution is necessary

fiction416 wrote:
This new state should be extremely secular, almost out of necessity in remaining imaprtial & detached to allow for a truly impartial prespective. IE: religion takes a back seat to peace & unity of the state.

tricky tricky fiction.

you really shouldn't edit your posts.

If he had edited his post it would say he edited his post and when.

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 7750 Location: Petah Tikva

Could we please get back to the main point? I made great effort I would appreciate it if someone could respond in kind.

the sane voice · Joined: 07 Sep 2006 Posts: 2512

i didnt read all the posts-but i want to say one thing.
peace will come to the me when there will be no jews in israel.

slitedeviance · Joined: 02 Sep 2006 Posts: 1507

The Comrade wrote: now what exactly was the point of this?

slitedeviance wrote: I want peoples ideas for how peace in the middle east can be acheived. I want peoples ideas for how we can move forward from where we are to where we should be. I want honest opinions and I want people here to acutally give a damn about peace.

That's about it. If you have nothing to contribute along these lines then please take your points to other threads, or PM the person you have an issue with and address the situation directly.

Anyway...

Superskippy, I agree with alot of your ideas, especially regarding the water issues, and the training of people in the financial sector for Palestine. Thank you for the honesty of this, and for taking a wider view.

It seems despite the difference of opinions that everyone shares at least some common ground:
* Religous sites should be open to people of all denominations / faiths. I think this is a very important point. I also like the idea of them becoming world heritage sites as they are not only important in terms of current religous faith but in terms of our collective history.
* Recognition of the state of Israel is essential to the peace process. Without this there can be no guarantee of security and therefore no equivlance from the Israeli perspective.
* The rights of the Palestinian people must be also recognised if they are allowed their own sovereign state. Whilst there must be security guarantees from them as to their stance towards Israel, I feel it's important the Palestinians are able to guarantee their own safety.

Superskippy, how would you suggest that the influences of Iran and Syria are dealt with? I think it's appaling that the Palestinians are used by both countries to try and make them look like they care for all oppressed Muslims, whilst doing nothing in real terms to help them. I worry that the cut off of financial aid from the EU and US will play into Irans hands in the long run, in the same way that the Lebanese conflict has incredibly bolstered their position amongst the people of Lebanon.

Would be interested in your thoughts on this.

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 7750 Location: Petah Tikva

Quote: Superskippy, I agree with alot of your ideas, especially regarding the water issues, and the training of people in the financial sector for Palestine. Thank you for the honesty of this, and for taking a wider view.

My thanks for both appreciating it and looking at it.

Quote: Religous sites should be open to people of all denominations / faiths. I think this is a very important point. I also like the idea of them becoming world heritage sites as they are not only important in terms of current religous faith but in terms of our collective history.

The Old City in it's entirety is already a World Heritage site thus it technically covers the building within.

Quote: Superskippy, how would you suggest that the influences of Iran and Syria are dealt with? I think it's appaling that the Palestinians are used by both countries to try and make them look like they care for all oppressed Muslims, whilst doing nothing in real terms to help them.

I think that if we can achieve peace and try to have them build a proper state they will become naturally weaned off of Syria and Iranian influences because as a State they have to think as a nation does. In their situation, Israel, Egypt, and Jordan would be their principle trading partners and neighbors in every regard. Iran and Syria have influence at the moment because they can prop up factions, but it is decisivly harder to control or heavily influence a nation.

fiction416 · Joined: 02 Sep 2006 Posts: 620 Location: purgatory

superskippy wrote: A two state solution remains the most feasible and most likely and most wanted solution. What has to be solved is the violence before a state can even begin and I think that if all goes well we might be ready for the next round of major negotiations within 10 years.

What I envision for a state is Israel ceding the West Bank to the Palestinians as they already have Gaza as well as some heavily Arab populated land on the fringes of the West Bank which have very loyal and heavy concentrations of expatriot Palestinians. Jerusalem will remain Israeli but holy sites will of course remain open to all faiths. But I think this is the only feasible border plan, I do not beleive the Palestinians have any right or any chance of claiming East Jerusalem. But perhaps an agreement of allowing them offices there would provide some sort of compromise?

I beleive a bi-national highway running through Israel that is secured on all sides like a national border might be feasible. We would of course man the border running alongside Israeli territory, with the checkpoints into Palestine and Israel run by our own people respectivley. It is at this moment a fantasy idea but one day it might be possible.

Also what needs to be addressed is the water issue, the most feasible idea I have yet heard and the most profitable for everyone is a joint Jordanian-Palestinian-Israeli canal from the straits of Tiran to the Dead Sea and the Jordan River with a mix of Desalinzation plants to increase not only useable water enormously but to reinvegorate the Jordan River and virtually create a new watersource for all 3 peoples. I dont see any partisan way of viewing this and I really do hope it is achieved one day.

Another thing that needs to be looked at is the security force this nation of Palestine will have. I know many of you beleive strongly in Palestinian statehood but you must also accept that when and if that day comes you can honestly expect us to place no limits on a Palestinian Army. I'm sure the trade of peace and statehood in exchange for a reduced offensive ability in any Palestinian force is wholly acceptable. As well as a joint Air Defense treaty, our ability to use the skies of the Negev and over the Jordan valley is imperative to our security and dual use of that air space must be negotiated. Of course bear in mind this is all hypothetical for the future.

As well as the development of Palestinian domestic trade and international commerce which due not military but political failures is in total shambles. This must be rectified if the Palestinians are to succeed as a nation and maintain the peace and also become a trading partner. Expansion of ports and banks and training of accountents, stock brokers, and in general economic trainers is a must. I know it may seem mundane but it is something they MUST have if they desire a profitable and succesful nation.

I have much more I could say but I want to stop here, I have tried my utmost to keep this non-partisan I think exploring ideas of commerce, infrastructre, and canals can hardly be criticized as such.

Great post - But do you not think that a two state solution will only help foster greater seperation between the two cultures?

Maybe it's me just me, but I think the key to peace in the region is a general assimilation of both Arabs & Jews into one state, that is steepedd in equality and unity.

Anyways, very thoughtful post + 1

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 7750 Location: Petah Tikva

Fiction we arent ever going to be one state, we dont want it for multiple reasons nor do the Palestinians who have spent 60 years railing for a state of their own.

fiction416 · Joined: 02 Sep 2006 Posts: 620 Location: purgatory

superskippy wrote: Fiction we arent ever going to be one state, we dont want it for multiple reasons nor do the Palestinians who have spent 60 years railing for a state of their own.

Yeah, it's not about what you want, but what the regions needs. IMO.

Q: Did everyone want Israel to be created, when it was? Is this what people in the region wanted?

the sane voice · Joined: 07 Sep 2006 Posts: 2512

fiction416 wrote: superskippy wrote: Fiction we arent ever going to be one state, we dont want it for multiple reasons nor do the Palestinians who have spent 60 years railing for a state of their own.

Yeah, it's not about what you want, but what the regions needs. IMO.

the region needs to make sure there are no jews in israel.then there will be peace.until then....

fiction416 · Joined: 02 Sep 2006 Posts: 620 Location: purgatory

the sane voice wrote: i didnt read all the posts-but i want to say one thing.
peace will come to the me when there will be no jews in israel.

the sane voice wrote: there are no jews in israel.then there will be peace.until then....

Does saying it twice make you happy?

Do you have anything to add to the thread in terms of productive ideas, or are you just looking for attention?

the sane voice · Joined: 07 Sep 2006 Posts: 2512

fiction416 wrote: the sane voice wrote: i didnt read all the posts-but i want to say one thing.
peace will come to the me when there will be no jews in israel.

the sane voice wrote: there are no jews in israel.then there will be peace.until then....

Does saying it twice make you happy?

Do you have anything to add to the thread in terms of productive ideas, or are you just looking for attention?
im just saying what i know.if you think my opinions are not productive then you can be productive and not respond.

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 7750 Location: Petah Tikva

Quote: Yeah, it's not about what you want, but what the regions needs. IMO.

Q: Did everyone want Israel to be created, when it was? Is this what people in the region wanted?

The region is not an issue here, Jordan, Egypt, and Syria have remained the same and even at least in the former two decided to forge ties of peace and trade regardless of the Israeli-Palestinian problam. The creation of Palestine in the territories is not an issue for the region and it is what both Palestinians and Israelis want in the end, I dont see how you can possibly say it's not what we both want but what Jordan or Egypt or Syria might think about it.

fiction416 · Joined: 02 Sep 2006 Posts: 620 Location: purgatory

superskippy wrote: Quote: Yeah, it's not about what you want, but what the regions needs. IMO.

Q: Did everyone want Israel to be created, when it was? Is this what people in the region wanted?

The region is not an issue here, Jordan, Egypt, and Syria have remained the same and even at least in the former two decided to forge ties of peace and trade regardless of the Israeli-Palestinian problam. The creation of Palestine in the territories is not an issue for the region and it is what both Palestinians and Israelis want in the end, I dont see how you can possibly say it's not what we both want but what Jordan or Egypt or Syria might think about it.

WTF - where & when did I say that...

I was simply making a subtle point, inre: what we WANT, is not always what we NEED

When I said region, I meant Israel/Palestine(Occupied Territories), not the others, sorry for not being as specific as I should have been.

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 7750 Location: Petah Tikva

I assumed region must mean neighboring countries as a two state solution is needed and wanted by both the Palestinians and Israelies. A combination of us into one state would be an economic and social catastrophe of enormous proportions. I didnt beleive you could possibly mean that we "need" as a region to combine.

fiction416 · Joined: 02 Sep 2006 Posts: 620 Location: purgatory

superskippy wrote: I assumed region must mean neighboring countries as a two state solution is needed and wanted by both the Palestinians and Israelies. A combination of us into one state would be an economic and social catastrophe of enormous proportions. I didnt beleive you could possibly mean that we "need" as a region to combine.

Yeah, that was my bad, for the misunderstanding....

You are probably right - my idea is a utopic one that I see working. But in terms of realism, you brought forth some excellent thoughts...

kudos

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 7750 Location: Petah Tikva

No problam that is what rational debate is for. It's just that if we combined the economically depressed Palestine with a highpowered but small economy of Israel then it would lead to an economic catastrophe, we arent West Germany by a longshot to be able to even partially withstand that, and Palestine is far more economically famished then East Germany was. That isnt to mention internecine social crisis and conflicts.

fiction416 · Joined: 02 Sep 2006 Posts: 620 Location: purgatory

superskippy wrote: No problam that is what rational debate is for. It's just that if we combined the economically depressed Palestine with a highpowered but small economy of Israel then it would lead to an economic catastrophe, we arent West Germany by a longshot to be able to even partially withstand that, and Palestine is far more economically famished then East Germany was. That isnt to mention internecine social crisis and conflicts.

I would disagree, for arguments sake - mostly because I know the world community would be behind whatever initial pifalls came in the idea of whatever option was adopted. Over time this could be worked out...

I just think peace & unity in that region means alot to the rest of the world, it has a real rippple effect in terms of how it resonates within both the Musllim world & the 'West', et al.

Thoughs?

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 7750 Location: Petah Tikva

It's not about the world community supporting us economics is far more complicated than that, the world community could give us $200,000,000,000 and it wouldnt come close to solving the crisis that would result. The job market would be crushed, the shekel would be in ruin, the budget would collapse under the stress of having to aid and calculate in another 4,000,000 people with no ability to pay back taxes to any lage extent, our high end economy with our enormous technology center would be an isolated rock against the economy collapsing around it and bringing it down with it.

Nor do I beleive the world even considers a one state solution desirable or even remotely slightly viable.

thatisnotme · Joined: 26 Mar 2006 Posts: 452

In 1947, the UN for better or for worse passed resolution 188, which stated that two states to be created, one for the Jews and one for the Arabs- in those days, the word 'Palestinian' was not in use, that came much later. The Arab countries rejected UN 188 and declared war on the newly-created state called Israel. The war lasted several years and Israel fended off all Arab attacks. An uneasy truce followed. Without going through every detail in the annals of history, which would take too long for a thread, it is sufficed to say that no peace treaty, no border negotiations were done between the two sides. Israel has maintained that no such peace talks will take place as long as hostility continues.

Israel with 6 million is surrounded by 200 million Arabs that are hostile and therefore, Israel's security trumps all other factors concerning the Arabs needs. And Arabs must come to terms with their defeat, accept the existence of the state of Israel, which means put an end to their arm struggle. This arm struggle has continued only because the Arabs think they can get the whole loaf. They were given half a loaf, which they refused to take in 1948. Since then the half a loaf is shrinking. That is reality, not fanciful dreams.